Meeting at Speaker's Corner 18 Oct, 6-7 pm

[Ah Hai]

Thursday, November 27, 2008
Bonus is likely to remain low
I organised a collective protest against the bonus cut made by NTUC Income earlier this year. I reached a settlement as follows:
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/search?q=collective+protest+settlement

I promised policyholders that I would monitor the situation and give an update.

Recently, I decided to surrender my Living policy, which was affected by the bonus cut. I received a surrender value that included the special bonus to compensate for the bonus cut. In this case, I was slightly better off (with the special bonus included).

During the past six months, there has been turmoil in the financial market resulting in a large markdown of asset prices. I do not know whether the "compensating" special bonus will be withdrawn or reduced in the next few years of the global financial crisis.

Earlier, I wanted to press for the bonus cuts in past years to be restored due to the good financial results up to 2007. With the large drop in asset price in 2008, it will now be difficult to press for this measure. It is also likely that future bonus will remain at a low level, until after the global economy has recovered.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 7:44 AM

 

[Ah Hai]

Thursday, November 27, 2008
100,000 signatures so that more people will step forward
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/11...-more-people-will-step-forward/#comment-36251
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 2:06 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

Thursday, November 27, 2008
Speaker's Corner 5 p.m. Sat 29 Nov
There will be a meeting of investors of the credit linked notes at Speaker's Corner at 5 p.m. on Sat 29 Nov.

Agenda
1. See you MP
2. Misrepresenation in prospectus
3. Ask for information in writing
4. Experience with FIDREC
5. Mental health concerns
6. Class action
7. Special meeting on Sat 6 Dec
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 3:08 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

28 Comments

Blogger Chan J C said...

Mr. Tan

Once again, thank you so much for your time and effort.

See you there!

3:32 PM
Blogger Concerned said...

If we have time, we can also talk about the losses suffered by the Town Councils, and why most MP just "Diam", "Diam", except two brave MP, Eunice Olsen and Silva Lim (WP). The rest just a very big disappointment. Worse, Dr Teo still tries to justifies the losses. No words of apology or any remorse shown.

4:10 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To analyse a little more, the DBS HN5, ML Jubilee 3 & Pinnacle CLN 9 & 10 are gone and the noters will have no alternatives but go for class legal suit on the ground of misrepresentation.

LB Minibond all series concern, there are other alternatives other than taking legal suit, and if a new swap counterparty will come to the rescue the notes continue to run till maturity subject to no credit event in the three major areas of risk.

Pinnacles CLN 1,2,3,5,6 & 7 had 4 to 6 REs in the Synthetic CDO CDS basket defaulted but the notes continue to run till maturity or in the event that their respective subordinate level of the specified capital thresolds have been breached hence a mandatory redemption.

It is very difficult to UNITE all the CLN noters for an unified action.

4:14 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

no Christmas turkey this yr. have to settle for chicken rice as per some retirees who lost their entire savings!

4:27 PM
Blogger Chan J C said...

Hi Mr. Tan

Anonymous said...4:14pm

To analyse a little more, the DBS HN5, ML Jubilee 3 & Pinnacle CLN 9 & 10 are gone and the noters will have no alternatives but go for class legal suit on the ground of misrepresentation.

Agenda 2 and 6 should address this situation.



LB Minibond all series concern, there are other alternatives other than taking legal suit, and if a new swap counterparty will come to the rescue the notes continue to run till maturity subject to no credit event in the three major areas of risk.

Maybe there should be a separate agenda to discuss if MAS has a resolution and the next step.



Pinnacles CLN 1,2,3,5,6 & 7 had 4 to 6 REs in the Synthetic CDO CDS basket defaulted but the notes continue to run till maturity or in the event that their respective subordinate level of the specified capital thresolds have been breached hence a mandatory redemption.

Is it possible to write a petition to have MAS to look into the possibility to re-structure all these series like Minibond series?


Thank you again

4:28 PM
Anonymous SGDividends said...

Hi Concerned,

To be fair, we think Dr Teo is alright to justify the losses that occured with the Town Council's investments.

Frankly no one expected this thing to happen.

Case in point even Temasek Holdings ABC investments went awry and Temasek is, as we know, considered smart.

So frankly, we feel our town councils should not be blamed for making a bad investment given the situation at that time.

They might just had wanted to make a better return for the fund at that time, which translate to the good of the town. =)

What is done is done. Its time to move on to help the retirees who have been misled by financial instiuitions. Town councils are the victims too...

5:40 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To 4:14pm

Even if there is a new swap counter party for Minibond, the notes will very likely end up like Pinnacle Notes 9 & 10. The Minibond is a very toxic product and in the current market conditions, it doesn't take much for a credit event to occur, the risks are multiplied many times. It should now be renamed "Mini Time Bomb" !

6:48 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

Anonymous said...

这个编辑说对的部分：

They may be inspired by popular television courtroom shows which often depict the victory of the small man over the big guns.

Sadly, real life is a bit different. It is more complicated, costs a lot and takes a heck of a lot more time to get a result. （打官司要花钱花时间，这些都对）

还有这部分：

Many of these contracts contain reams of fine print. The investor is asked to acknowledge that he has read and understood the terms and conditions. This is likely to exclude any oral representations made - verbal claims made by the relationship manager, for example - once the written contract is signed.

To succeed in these circumstances, it is likely that only the elderly folk and the illiterate will be able to argue that they did not understand what they were buying and were misled.

The prospects look poor for sophisticated investors, say lawyers.（但要注意的是，除了illiterate 文盲和 sophisticated investors，还有第三种类型，就是受过教育的人但不懂投资的人）

Another legal hurdle to cross is that much of the evidence is likely to be oral, whereas written evidence would produce a much stronger case.

But not many investors would be able to produce written or taped evidence of conversations with their relationship manager. Such legal hurdles are the reason that the authorities are recommending investors try to settle with the banks rather than resorting to the courts.

可是问题不在看那些fine prints, 而在于苦主们在当时的情况下是否可以合理的认为，苦主们是相信了
RM的说法而不去看这些fine prints. 所以从纯粹的法律角度来说当然不会容易，但法庭可以从合理化的角度来判定苦主们是被误导。

所谓 “合理”reasonableness, 在法律上可以成立的。就是一般情况下，在苦主相信银行的情况下，在苦主们历来和银行打交道的情况下，都不会去看这些fine prints.

本来打官司本来就没有“包赢”的事。海峡时报的编辑至少说得比早报的客观，最后这一段话：

So don't bet on investors taking their losses lying down. Even though the chances of winning may be low, and even though a legal battle is draining both emotionally and financially, many investors may still sue, just to make their point.

It won't always be reason and good sense that wins, when it comes to irate investors determined for their day in court.

还算有点良心。。。

6:54 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The opposition is stiff. The banks in Singapore all employ the top legal eagles to advise them.

If these top legal firms are excluded from the equation, how far will the litigant get, with the help, for example, of the one-man firm Tan Ah Kow who has only limited resources?

(所以个人和银行打官司就没机会了？因为好的律师都被这些银行雇佣了，只有次等的律师才能帮个人打官司？）

6:55 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since such investments are based on a written contract, the investor could try to set aside the contract by claiming misrepresentation or something known as non est factum, which simply put means 'I did not understand what I was signing or 'what I signed is radically different from what I believed it was'.

Alleging misrepresentation could mean, for example, that the relationship manager promised it was a capital-guaranteed product when in fact it was not.

Or it could be that the investor thought for some other reason that it was a capital-guaranteed product - when it wasn't - and signed the contract.

（这就是苦主们有case 的地方。如果能够证明银行这么做，那就是“误导性”销售）

6:55 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Many of these contracts contain reams of fine print. The investor is asked to acknowledge that he has read and understood the terms and conditions. This is likely to exclude any oral representations made - verbal claims made by the relationship manager, for example - once the written contract is signed.

（这时就需要法庭来决定，在合理的情况下是不是该相信苦主们的说法，也就是，口头上他们是被误导了，而且由于他们相信口头的承诺，所以他们没有，也看不懂，那些文字的合同）

6:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To succeed in these circumstances, it is likely that only the elderly folk and the illiterate will be able to argue that they did not understand what they were buying and were misled.

The prospects look poor for sophisticated investors, say lawyers.

（如果不是文盲，又不是那种资深的投资家，该怎么办？这些人才是大多数吧。到底sophisticated investors该怎么定义？念过书就算？还是要有大学文凭，还是需要MBA，还是说是那种有好几百万身价的？）

6:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

我很疑惑，为什么第一流的律师都被银行雇佣去了？而让另一方一开始就处于劣势，我们是否要质疑律师这个行业的规则？

律师公会是受律政部（ministry of law) 管理的，是否可以从政治上要求这个部做得更好？

6:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 2 who voiced out are NMP / Opposition. The rest just cover their ass by keeping their mouth shut. This is the so called democracy we have. Make mistakes, no apology still can tell you off with both eyes big open. Very disappointed.

9:19 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

Anonymous said...

Contrary to what the govt has advised about not seeking legal action, actually its is realtively simple case. Every investor would say they did not know of the following:(a) that ibn each of the Notes- be it Pinnacle or Minibond etc- they did not know anything about the second layer of 100 or 125 or 150 entities over and aove the 6 or 7 named ones; (b) they did not know and were not told at all that only 5 or 6 or 7 of the second layer of entities need tp fail and the rest goes bust also; (b) they were never told even up to this date what is the amount that the entities are being "insured" (ie the credit default amount) It is a huge number - and no investor was ever told of it. Had ivnestors been told of these , NO one would have invested ibn the Notes. There is no need to say more is there ??

It is a simple case of false and misleading statements inthe Propsectus for which the arranger or whoever was responsible for the prospectus have to compensate fully.

10:25 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The victims here aka en bloc minority. The law does not protect them initially and it was minority vs property giants. But their perseverence paid off finally. We must be strong.

11:05 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To be fair, focuses shouldn't be just on FIs alone. MAS has been sidelining themselves by directing all investigations on misled selling by FIs. Clear strategy to distance itself from their share of responsibility. Shouldn't MAS explain why such high risk financial products are suitable allowed into the country or original investors. The root of all evil started as soon as MAS gave its approval to these notes.

12:06 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I found this in youtube.com :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgRVYwHfzq4

Can anyone translate or summarize it into English ?

I think it says something like, banks in Hong Kong is going to "buy/back" the minibond to "settle" the whole issue amicably.
I think I saw DBS(HK)'s name , featured in the newspaper in the video clip.
Pls correct me if I am wrong.

World Peace !

12:41 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's gonna happened to Minibond Series 2. The quarterly payout is tomorrow Nov 29. Can anyone shed some light on it?

Very concerned investor

6:18 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan,

Item 6, class action, if it ever happen will surely make legal history here!

Hope it will happen, as there is no other choice.

8:48 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

youtube video clip (Hong Kong) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnwJSw2xvUM

9:03 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

立法會權力及特權法調查雷曼事件:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fswzjAKzGG4

9:07 AM

 

[Ah Hai]

Chan J C said...

I watched the clip. It says something like the HK parliament has approved the HK Monetary Authority to access all necessary information to investigate into Lehman's toxic product now. This investigation will be conducted on all FI who has distributed the structured product from Lehman.

Need someone to verify my understanding please.

10:34 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Latest news from Hong Kong about their Minibond....

HSBC seeks US legal advice on minibonds
Benjamin Scent and Alfred Liu
Friday, November 28, 2008

HSBC, which acts as the trustee for Lehman Brothers minibonds sold in Hong Kong, is seeking advice from its US legal counsel after The Standard revealed local banks' plan to buy back minibonds from their beleaguered customers may fall foul of US bankruptcy laws.
HSBC spokesman Gareth Hewett said complex issues of US bankruptcy law have been raised.

"We are seeking legal advice from our US lawyers," he said. "We are liaising with all the concerned parties to identify a solution."

HSBC Institutional Trust Services (Singapore), the trustee for minibonds sold in Singapore, received legal notice from Lehman Brothers attorneys on Wednesday that any termination of swap agreements underlying the Singapore minibonds would be deemed illegal, a Hong Kong banker involved in minibond discussions said.

The Hong Kong banks were then informed of the situation, the banker said. So far, the trustee for the Hong Kong minibonds - also a trustee unit of HSBC - has not received any legal notice, he said.

"We are seeking legal opinion as to the validity of the potential challenge ... before we can proceed on to the next stage," the banker explained. "We're going to clear the legal opinion as soon as possible."

A spokeswoman for the Hong Kong Association of Banks' Lehman task force said the group is still seeking legal opinions.

Lehman Brothers is seeking US court authority to assume and sell off derivative contracts it entered into before its bankruptcy. The motion, if granted, would make it illegal for Hong Kong banks to terminate credit-default swaps that underly minibonds sold in the SAR.

Hong Kong banks' plan to compensate minibond investors requires them to terminate any swap arrangements involving the minibonds and then sell off the minibonds' underlying assets.

The US Bankruptcy Court in New York will hear the motion on Wednesday.

Lehman Brothers wants to be able to sell any derivative contracts on to third parties, without further court approval, so it can use the money to pay back its creditors. Such court orders were granted in US bankruptcy cases, including after the collapses of Enron and NRG Energy.

Financial Secretary John Tsang Chun-wah said the buyback plan remains the best plan and added the government hopes investors can get back money at the current market value.

Democratic Party legislator Kam Nai-wai said he thinks the legal challenge is an excuse local banks are using to halt their buyback plans.

10:52 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This article from The Standard (Hong Kong)

Lack of law fueled banks' greed

Wilfred Ho

Monday, November 24, 2008

The Lehman minibonds issue has been dragging on for quite a while, grabbing headlines and causing uproar over a host of issues ranging from sales pitches by local banks to a lack of legislation governing the sale of high-risk financial products.
Tales of bank employees sweet- talking elderly customers into switching their life savings to the likes of Lehman minibonds are not unheard of. Not even frontline bank employees are to blame, though.

It is no secret that quite a lot of them have been made to double as salesmen, forever under tremendous pressure to reach a certain sales figure to keep their jobs. There is no telling when the local banks embarked upon such an ambitious expansion of their sales teams, but this move signaled a potentially dangerous departure from the traditional role of a bank.

Then the banks became increasingly aggressive in boosting their profits, whipping their sales teams into a powerful drive to lure more customers into various high-risk products, some of them appearing harmless enough.

The absence of legislation banning the sale of such products to non- institutional investors simply spurred the bankers on, constantly fueling and fanning the flames that finally consumed virtually all that the investors had contributed.

10:59 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why MAS discourages investors to take legal action? Give some thought to it.

11:15 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All PAP MP just keep quiet about their minibond losses.
It is clear, vote them out!

11:40 AM

 

[Ah Hai]

The Online Citizen interview an investor

Friday, November 28, 2008
The Online Citizen interview an investor
Listen to this interview of the experience of an investor in the minibonds:

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/11/toc-exclusive-interview-with-investor-who-lost-150000/#comments

The Online Citizen wishes to have other investors to come forward to share their experience. I hope that more can come forward. We need the authority to hear about how they have been misled into the wrong investment that cause a total loss of their savings.

If you are willing to be interviewed, send an e-mail to [email protected].
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 1:58 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

To each his own
TO EACH HIS OWN
Author Unknown
Nov 27 2008

I cannot change the way I am,
I never really try,
God made me different and unique,
I never ask him why.

If I appear peculiar,
There's nothing I can do,
You must accept me as I am,
As I've accepted you.

God made a casting of each life,
Then threw the mold away,
Each child is different from the rest,
Unlike as night from day.

So often we will criticize,
The things that others do,
But, do you know, they do not think,
The same as me and you.

So God in all his wisdom,
Who knows us all by name,
He didn't want us to be bored,
That's why we're not the same
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 5:16 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

The Standard : Legco first on Lehman fizzles out

Friday, November 28, 2008
The Standard : Legco first on Lehman fizzles out
Standard, The (Hong Kong) - Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Author: Diana Lee

The first open meeting of the Legislative Council subcommittee probing the Lehman minibonds saga got bogged down in party bickering yesterday and failed to reach agreement on confidentiality.

Civic Party legislator Ronny Tong Ka-wah said meetings should be transparent and documents made available unless witnesses request confidentiality. This demand must be justified with evidence submitted to subcommittee members and the legal adviser, he said.

``In principle we should not accept a general request. I would not accept, for example, a bank claiming each and every document is confidential,'' Tong said.

However Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong legislator Chan Kam-lam disagreed, saying mutual respect and mutual trust should exist between witnesses and subcommittee members.

``Even individual people have their privacy, so why not companies?'' Chan asked.

The Democratic Party's James To Kun-sun said mutual trust has nothing to do with the probe.

``We are here to find out the truth,'' To argued. ``What if the banks claim the staff training manual [for selling structured financial products] is classified material? ``What's the point of a public hearing if everything could be treated as classified so easily? We talk about mutual trust among legislators, not between witnesses and legislators.'' Lawmakers also failed to compromise on whether legislators should sign a confidentiality agreement.

The pan-democrats said they did not object but raised doubts about the effect such a pledge would have on lawmakers.

Philip Wong Yu-hong, subcommittee vice chairman and a commercial sector lawmaker, said ensuring lawmakers will keep the confidential submissions confidential is more important. Classifying what is confidential is another issue.

The Legco Secretariat will host a briefing on December 4 to inform lawmakers on matters they should know about the Lehman probe, including the general principles of what information should be treated as classified and confidential.

Meanwhile, Emily Lau Wai-hing of the Frontier, again failed to persuade members to support the pan-democrats' demand for a smaller subcommittee, which currently has 24 members.

Subcommittee chairman Raymond Ho Chung-tai said he hoped the discussion on the subcommittee's size is finally over and that members may unite to face the challenges ahead.

When the subcommittee meets will be decided on Friday. It is expected to host meetings every Tuesday and Friday morning starting early next year.

 

[Ah Hai]

Speaker's Corner 5 pm on 29 Nov - change of plan

Friday, November 28, 2008
Speaker's Corner 5 pm on 29 Nov - change of plan
There will be an Indian Cultural event at Hong Lim park tomorrow at the same time as my speech. The tents occupy most of the open spaces. I like to ask those who read this message to skip the meeting tomorrow. I will post my speech here.

There is space in a corner of the park for a small crowd For those who miss this announcement and turn up at Hong Lim park tomorrow, I will distribute a hard copy of my speech on the spot.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 8:54 PM

 

[Ah Hai]

Mr Tan Kin Lian speaks on minibond issue 081129 - Part 1

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[Ah Hai]

Mr Tan Kin Lian speaks on minibond issue 081129 - Part 2

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[Ah Hai]

Mr Tan Kin Lian's speech in Chinese by Ms Ms Lee Wai Leng 081129

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[Ah Hai]

Petition Mr Tan to run for public office and introduce political challenge - Part 1

Mr Goh Meng Seng stressed the need of political challenge and called on public to support petitioning Mr Tan Kin Lian to run for public office.
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[Ah Hai]

Petition Mr Tan to run for public office and introduce political challenge - Part 2

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[Ah Hai]

Petition Mr Tan to run for public office and introduce political challenge - Part 3

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[Ah Hai]

Clash of events at Speakers Corner on 29 November

Monday, December 01, 2008
Clash of events at Speakers Corner on 29 November
Dear Mr. Tan,

Do you think that the Indian cultural event held on 29 November at Hong Lim Park was arranged to make it difficult for you to use Speaker's Corner?

REPLY

I do not think so. This type of event probably takes a few months to organise. If anyone is suspicious, perhaps you can check the facts for me.

It appears that Hong Lim Park is not used exclusively for Speaker's Corner. In the future, I will check if there are competing events on Saturdays. I am also considering to move my regular meeting at Speaker's Corner to Wednesday at 6 p.m. There is less likelihood of a clash of events during the weekdays.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 8:19 AM

 

[Ah Hai]

Legal action against the Issuers and Distributors

Monday, December 01, 2008
Legal action against the Issuers and Distributors
If the noteholders take legal action against the issuers and/or distributors of the credit linked notes and win the case, it is possible to get the contracts rescinded and the noteholders will receive a full refund of the invested money.

I heve spoken to several lawyers. They advised that the noteholders have a good case against the issuers and/or distributors on the following grounds:

1) There are possible misrepresentations, omissions and inconsistencies in the prospectus and pricing documents. Under the principle of "contract of adhesion", these inconsistencies will be interpreted against the financial institutions as they provided the legal wordings to the contracts.
2) The documents require more than 1 day to read and understand, even for an educated and financially savvy person. How is it possible for the securities to be sold over the counter to an ordinary layman withon one hour?

3) The actual risks of these securities clearly do not fit the risk profile of the people that are marketed to. This is sufficient grounds for the contracts to be rescinded.

I will be talking to two or three senior lawyers to go through the legal documents and the above arguments. If we find sufficient evidence, we can get the written opionion from a Queens Counsel or other suitable experts. This will strengthen the case and help to get the noteholders to join a class action.

I will find someone to fund the cost of the expert legal opinion, so that the noteholders do not need to wrry about this matter now. If the case proceed, those joining the class action can reimburse this cost.

I am still keen to avoid a costly legal battle and have a negotiated settlement with the financial institutions. I hope that they will come forward to offer a fair compensation to the notebolders, so that this matter does not need to be taken to the courts.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:32 AM

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Re: Legal action against the Issuers and Distributors

Under the circumstances, probably the best way forward. This shall show the "issuers/distributors" that you mean business. The way I see it, the "issuers/distributors" have probably long since taken Queen's Counsel advice on this matter both as to the substantive legal issues and all important strategy.

I will be talking to two or three senior lawyers to go through the legal documents and the above arguments. If we find sufficient evidence, we can get the written opionion from a Queens Counsel or other suitable experts. This will strengthen the case and help to get the noteholders to join a class action.


Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:32 AM