• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Meeting at Speaker's Corner 18 Oct, 6-7 pm

Phone interview with Mr Chua Sheng Yang

Posted by wayangparty on November 18, 2008

By Eugene Yeo, Senior writer

Mr Chua Sheng Yang wrote a letter to Straits Times forum today - ”Questions on investment products rally” in which he appeared to question Mr Tan’s motives for organizing the minibond rallies. He also insinuates that Mr Tan had employed similar sale tactics during his stint as NTUC INCOME Chief which infuriates many netizens.

At 11pm, the Wayangparty Club made an open appeal here for any reliable information of Mr Chua Sheng Yang. Thanks to an alert reader who emailed us his contacts, I was able to contact him to conduct a 20 minute interview. We will pay this reader a honorarium of S$100 for his efforts.

Eugene: Hi Mr Chua, I am from XXX and I would like to confirm with you if you are the Mr Chua Sheng Yang who wrote a letter to ST Forum today ?

Chua S Y: Yes, I am the one.

Eugene: Can you spare me 10 minutes of your time to conduct a quick interview ?

Chua S Y: Yes, my pleasure.

Eugene: May I know how old are you and where are you working ?

Chua S Y: 28 years old. I am working in a consultancy firm.

Eugene: Your letter to Straits Times Forum today sound very harsh and personal. Do you know Mr Tan Kin Lian in person ?

Chua S Y: No, I do not know him at all. I have nothing personal against Mr Tan.

Eugene: In your letter, you implied that Mr Tan is helping the investors because of some hidden personal agenda.

Chua S Y: I know Mr Tan is trying to help the investors, but I do not understand why he chose to protest against MAS instead of Lehman brothers or Morgan Stanley.

Eugene: You seem to think that the investors do not deserve compensation.

Chua S Y: No, no. Of course the elderly, uneducated investors should be compensated. What I meant is that some educated investors are latching on to Mr Tan’s rallies to get the compensation they don’t deserve and I feel strongly that the government should not compensate them.

Eugene: Do you mean to say that Mr Tan is promoting The Online Citizen or vice vevrsa ?

Chua S Y: No. It’s just that I have some doubts because Mr Tan is a member of TOC and TOC is well-known for its anti-government posts. I have read some of the TOC’s articles and all they do is rant against the government without providing any constructive ideas or solutions. It is ironic they kept complaining the government is restricting our freedom and yet they want them to intervene in almost everything.

Eugene: Do you disagree with Mr Tan holding rallies at Hong Lim Park ?

Chua S Y: Not really. I am okay with it as long they stay peaceful and don’t turn violent. But I feel Mr Tan should explore other options besides holding the rallies.

Eugene: Where do you get your information about the minibond fiasco from ?

Chua S Y: Actually I haven’t been keeping myself updated due to my busy schedule and only got bits and pieces from the media.

Eugene: Tell me what you know so far.

Chua S Y: I heard MAS has already urged the banks to conduct investigations into possible mis-selling and to compensate the needy investors.

Eugene: Do you know the number of investors who have been compensated ?

Chua S Y: That I have no idea.

Eugene: Have you been to Mr Tan Kin Lian’s blog ?

Chua S Y: No, but I heard from others that he has written some excellent articles on investment.

Eugene: Have you been to the minibond rallies at Hong Lim Park ?

Chua S Y: No.

Eugene: Do you think the government has handled the minibond saga well ?

Chua S Y: I am not in a position to comment as I am not from the government. As you know, our government is very cautious and will only make a careful decision after many discussions, so you can’t expect them to respond quickly to the investors. However, I feel they can do much better and this includes the banks as well in terms of communication with the investors.

Eugene: Many netizens are furious after reading your article. They thought you have a personal grudge against Mr Tan.

Chua S Y: No, no, I have nothing personal against Mr Tan, really. Maybe it is my writing style. Actually I wrote a more balanced letter to the Straits Times a few weeks ago which was not published.

Eugene: Did Straits Times omit or make any changes to your letter ?

Chua S Y: I am not too sure, I guess they did make some changes to the grammar here and there.

Eugene: Last question, are you a member of any political parties ?

Chua S Y: No.

Eugene: Mr Chua, thank you very much for granting us the interview.

Chua S Y: You are welcome.

EDITORS’ NOTE: It appears that Mr Chua has a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions about the minibond fiasco partly due to the misinformation which has been propagadated by the mainstream media. We have passed Mr Chua’s email to Mr Tan for him to clarify his stance.

This entry was posted on November 18, 2008 at 10:32 pm and is filed under From the Editor. Tagged: Chua Sheng Yang, Tan Kin Lian. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
 
Ah Hai said:
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Reply to Chua Sheng Yang
18 November 2008

The Editor
Forum Page
Straits Times

I refer to the letter entitled “Questions on investment products rally” by Chua Sheng Yang (Straits Times, 18 Nov 2008).

I organize the fifth rally on 15 November for the purpose of updating the investors on the status of the three petitions that were sent to the Monetary Authority of Singapore. The text of my speech can be found in my blog, www.tankinlian.blogspot.com.

I did not organize the rally for the purpose of promoting The Online Citizen, as suggested by Mr. Chua.

I do wish to acknowledge the coverage given by The Online Citizen and other online blogs. They help to bring my messages to the investors who were not able to attend the events at Speaker’s Corner.

The first petition, signed by 983 investors and submitted on 9 October 2008, asked the Government to carry out an independent investigation to find out if there were any wrong doings by the financial institutions that created and marketed these credit linked securities and, if there were, to take appropriate action under the law. Specifically, the investigation should look at possible breaches under section 199 of the Securities and Futures Act and section 27 of the Financial Adviser’s Act.

Mr. Chua asked me to state if the people, who are neither elderly nor uneducated, should be entitled to their money back. In my view, all investors who have been misled into these securities through mis-representation and mis-selling (if proven by the findings) should be fairly compensated, regardless of their age and educational level.

I do not expect the Government to reimburse the investors for the financial loss. I only urge the Government to help the investors to get fair compensation for their loss from the financial institutions. I do not expect the compensation to be in full, as the investors have to bear some responsibility.

Several articles, written by journalists and university professors, have been printed in the newspapers explaining the high risk of these securities and how the investors could have been misled. I wonder why people like Mr. Chua choose to ignore them. I can only recall the saying, “None are so blind as those who will not see the truth”.

Mr. Chua made a personal attack on my character in the last three paragraphs of his letter. I am surprised that your newspaper found it fit to print these unsubstantiated remarks, as they are not relevant to the main issue. I shall not respond to them.

Tan Kin Lian
Click to expand...

24 Comments
Close this window Jump to comment form

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said Mr Tan. I read the forum post with anger and it was indeed inappropiate for the papers to publish the biased and unsubstantiated report.

3:49 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeong-Nathan beats Putney to win the women's title in at 44th QubicaAMF Bowling World Cup

First-ever victory for Singapore in the BWC history



Such a great victory but our local press is happier to promote Li Jiawei going to Beijing to hold her wedding.

Such are the sell out shameless ways of the Pappies and their minions in the press.

Dan

5:48 AM
Anonymous sgcynic said...

I'm not surprised that the Straits Times chose to print such unsubstantiated remarks.
 
G C said...

The issue on differentiating investors into group of educated and so call non "educated and old age" are weird and unfounded. Same logic you do differentiate those people who have been suffered from food poisoning into old age group, educated and uneducated. When you suffer from the same illness you are going to find the root cause of the illness and treat it accordingly.

There is no different in the poisoning of toxic financial products, one must go extra length to find out is there is mis-selling so to say or another other mis leading facts to the marketing of these products.

Any way when all willing to accept the fact that these products are :toxic" this has in the very first place warranted an investigation.

G C Tham

8:12 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Allow people who lost their life saving to speak and write out, as they talk, they write, depressed mode and anger can slowly release...and the more they allow to write and talk, they can be peaceful in mind, and bite the dust. They will then phsycologically BALANCED.
This forum allows sufferred people to write and express. If they keep quiet, worst ....
AMong the comments, would all of us find a way to help each other to learn, to avoid and to document it for future smart investment, and to share the truth and avoid CON-investment scheme.
Today world, many people 'kena' wrecked, they can share their smart investment strategies and perhaps you should find out a few here. M dad 80+years, 60 years in insurance and portfolio investment, will you buy his stories?
WTF.

8:26 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan,
You have my support. I have great faith in your character than many others, who true self is revealing in these tough times

Mr Lee

8:31 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How much banks paid for newspaper advertisement in total from 2004..2008 on TOXIC financial Products. Mr. Editor should publish the figures , bank by banks to update readers..

SHould we BOYCOTT NST from TODAY?
WTF

8:38 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is very sad that the Straits Times that had been so quick to be righteous in condemning criticisms of the government should lend itself to personal attacks that obviously reflect a political agenda. By doing so, the Straits Times merely reinforces the feeling among many that the small investors do not have recourse to jutsice and fair play but are merely white washed by authoritarian and institutionalized forces. If the Straits Times is sinecere in distancing itself from its tarnished image of being a voice of the government (not of the people) which it must do in any case if it is to retain some credibility in the technological age the newspaper should redress this wrong that it has once again carried out.

8:38 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MR TAN KIN LIAN

You have done the right thing to put up the petition to ask government to carry out "investigation .. into possible breaches under section 199 of the Securities and Futures Act and section 27 of the Financial Adviser’s Act." on 9 Oct 2008.

You have done well for SINGAPOREANS. Thank you very much. God bless.

8:41 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan and all NTUC financial advisors can do a class action suit again Chua Sheng Yang and ST for this deflamation.

8:41 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I havent seen that newspaper postup, can someone make it available herein

IF it does sound as bad or as skewed as it seems, then perhaps there could be an agenda for it to be

1. Submitted
2. Published
3. Circulated on a popular medium nationwide

Think carefully about the possibilities of that AGENDA

I dont know how to answer this, but perhpas blog owner might have an rough idea on the TOES he could have stepped on, on the path of justice so speak
 
Anonymous said...

in 1960..He told friends to buy a british listed share deal in discount house, when the share due to collect they quit, my dad could not forked out 10K and he sold all he got, car and borrow a few thousand. He cycled to sell insurance. THe british insurance boss in singapore (whom my dad carry his bag - like bell boy) when he arrived this small town to teach agents about insurance.
From the 10K shares, it ballons to 6 millions shares...after bonus dividend, the cost was 1 cent vs 1.60....rain and sunshine....it was MGOed at 1.60..during right and ICULs period a further 6 mil was gained from the paper and swap sell and subscription....

Friends, some shares can keep long term, same cannot even for a trading day.

US trained top bankers are all that smart. They were hired to squeeze our own countryman. Don't they feel guilty?

8:45 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am concern about Mr Chua statement on NTUC Income and their integrity as I bought several Income policies. Can Income explain if these had been unethical sale to me?
If what Mr Chua claim is true, does it mean I have bought some "junk" products or the premium could have been much lower?
Can I make NTUC Income compensate me for their unethical sale practice?

8:47 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://wayangparty.com/2008/11/19/facebook-account-of-chua-sheng-yang/

8:55 AM
Anonymous Johnsk said...

Dear Mr Tan,

I was very angry and disappointed that ST choose to print the irrelevant and sweeping remarks by SY Chua. It reflects the intelligence ( or could it be some hands in the making!! ) of the editorial team . There are so many rebutals make on DBS Chairman's remarks but was not published. I recalled someone going around HL Park seeking reporters and handing out reply to the Chairman statement.

On the other hand SY should get out of his house and make a trip to HL Park to see and hear for himself before he make such remarks. Or are you one of those that choose to stay in your 'Ivory Tower' and ignore the thousands' plees.

Unquote "“None are so blind as those who will not see the truth”.

9:11 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can only recall the saying, “None are so blind as those who will not see the truth”.

Referring to the pappies?

9:32 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I seriously think the ST need to explain why that unsubstantiated article was published for the sake of preserving its credibility.

9:42 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan, I wish to thank you for regaining my faith as a Singaporean and remind me of those younger day moral education value that my Chinese school had preached to me.

I am proud to be Singaporean and fellow country men but not necessary to love my politicians who are way out of context as Public Servant. They are no longer servant, it had became self service! While I cannot change the system, I would like to get out of it. As much as I can't bare to leave my friends, relatives and family, I hate to see that me and my children become slave to my own country!

I have promised myself that 5 years down the road if there isn't much changes to the system, count me in for the annual 1000 citizens that packed their bag and get out of here for good! Really appreciate your good demonstration of how to be a Singaporean. You made us proud, please keep up the good work. God speed and bliss you.

9:58 AM
Anonymous Jacky Goh said...

I find it funny that The Straits Times published that letter by Chua. I feel that it is unfair and is an personal attack on Mr.Tan.
Anyway Mr.Tan, fret not, I support you. You are one of the fews I really respect. Now I am utterly disappointed with our govt officials who did not apologise for losing Singaporeans' money. Hmm, they should seek your expert views before they invest.

Last election I supported govt assuming they would do their job well and caring for the people, now I shall see. What does it say when our ministers said, " Open your eyes when you invest", greed? Not showing remorse when they lose people hard-earned money?

I think it is important to have 2 parties to check the govt. My biggest concern is that these govt scholars who think they are the cream of the crop think they are the best and thus ignore wise advise and invest, thinking they know everything. Now $14 million dollars and more is gone.

10:22 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apease apease

AGENDA-FICATION, folks, AGENDA-FICATION

He who knows the truth knows the truth

The Liars will take care the rest.

10:53 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

KEEP UP THE GOODWORKS MR TAN - SIR!.I DONT THINK YOU ARE PAID TO DO ALL THESE WORK.NOT EVEN PEANUT.I WILL SPREAD YOUR GOOD DEEDS.

11:02 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We already have two parties. Low Thia Khiang is already there. However, he seems to be quite nice to PAP these days. So let us be very certain, the number of parties in parliament make no difference. It is the quality that counts.

As for Mr Low, his town council reaped 6% profit much better than the PAP which lost $12m and did not apologise and even played with numbers and said it is just 0.6%. I dont understand why LowThia kiang did not take a swipe at them. This is a fair swipe, it also give some publicity for a well run TC which reaped 6%. He is smart guy, stay away from minibonds!!

REX

11:17 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chua Sheng Yang's ST letter carried a heavy undertone of axe to grind. Ignore his flawed arguments. ST is foolish to publish it just to let readers have a diffrent angle of the credit link saga. There are so many credible arguments in this blog which deserves a wider readership than Chua's argument which is shallow and fraud with personal agenda. Worst of all..to be published in ST causing massive distorted view of all unfortunate investors whether they're literate or illiterate!!

11:17 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is not a surprise that ST published Mr Chua's article. Because both have a common shameless master behind.

11:27 AM
 
Mr Hai

Can you please your monotonous ramblings ?? You sound like a broken down recorder !!:mad:
 
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Ask MAS to provide guidelines on mis-selling
Dear Mr. Tan

Can you help to lobby MAS to come out with some guidelines on mis-selling. That will help ordinary man a lot.

For examples MAS can say the following situations are high likelihood of mis-selling.
1. Sold product the buyer not originally wanted
2. Concluded sale (such a complicated product) within 30 mins
3. Sold without going through line by line of the marketing brochure
4. Sold without giving prospectus
5. Prospectus was given after sale concluded
6. Sold on repetition of the Reference Entities but did not mention RISK of other link products (just mentioning link is not enough)
7. RM did not read prospectus before selling to the clients

I think you expect your doctor to read the details of the drugs before prescribing it to you or children? I just think that it is not right to sell by mis-representation, but eliminate their responsibility by thick documentation.

LKH

REPLY
I will post your views in my blog first. I will decide later on how to approach MAS.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 8:46 AM
 
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
CPF Medishield
Dear Mr. Tan,

I'm thinking of buying a health insurance but in the market there is so many health insurance. Could you recommend me one company that is providing the best health insurance?

I will be out of job soon, as my company is moving its operations to another country. I'm now 35 years old.

REPLY

I recommend CPF Medishield. As you will be losing a job, there is no need to spend so much money on a private Shield plan.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 8:54 AM
 
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Town councils should take legal action for mis-selling
I wish to send this letter to the Straits Times. I wish to ask for your assistance to improve this letter before I send it out.

Draft 2

Editor
Forum Page
Straits Times

Eight town councils have invested a combined sum of about $16 million in the credit-linked notes, including the minibonds, pinnacle notes, high notes and jubilee notes. Some of these notes are worthless. Others have lost a large part of their value.

The funds of these town councils belong to the residents who pay the conservancy charges. The town councils have the fiduciary duty to invest these funds carefully.

I suggest that the town councils explain if, when making the investment, they were aware that the credit linked notes carry the risk of the entire loss of the principal on a credit event involving any one of 5 to 8 reference entities, and the additional risks of the defaults of a certain number of 100 to 150 underlying assets, cormprising of collateralised debt obligations, subprime mortgages and other risky products?

Were the town councils aware that the risks of these credit linked notes are many times of the risk of default of a single entity? Does the return of around 5% commensurate with this high risk?

Were the town councils misled by the financial adviser who sold the notes or by the mis-representation contained in the sales materials or prospectus. If this is the case, I suggest that the town councils should take a legal case against the distributor for their negligence or bad advice and to seek fair compensation for their losses.

As the sums involved are quite large, the town councils should take the appropriate action to discharge their fiduciary duty to the residents.

If the town councils succeed in their action, the outcome will indirectly benefit over 10,000 helpless individuals who were also misled into investing in these credit linked notes.

Tan Kin Lian
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 12:05
 
33 Comments
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think town councils are just like us, being misled to think that these products are relatively safe. Nobody is silly enough to risk the whole principal for that 5%pa profit.
I hope the government will seriously look into this big matter. Otherwise in no time, we will see hike in conservancy fees.

Jasmin

12:17 PM
Anonymous Harold Lin said...

Indeed the sums investment are by no means small. On HINDSIGHT the investment made by the town council looked like a bad move. But in terms of weightage allocated to these investments within the portfolio, I would argue that the allocation was prudent.

It was responsible as it practiced 'divesification'.

This is my 2cts.

12:31 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

who did these town council buy from?

did the person representing the town council bought from a FA he/she knows personally?

this information ought to be made public now that money has been lost.

12:34 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a great letter. This is to shutup the naysayers who said why complain over a failed investment. Even with BIG OPEN-EYE, the town councils can fall into mis-selling.

- OTB -

12:37 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan,

So everyone is being MISLED by the average 20something Relationship Manager??? Some PAP MPs were reported to have lost their money in such Notes too. So they are also MISled??? So they should also take legal action???

FOR GOD'S SAKE, PLEASE WAKE UP!!!

12:48 PM
Blogger siewkhim said...

Kin Lian,

By doing this openly, you may be making additional powerful enemies who are financially and politically protected.

It will make your other job more difficult and problematic for the "victimised" investors.

I think you are threading on very dangerous grounds.

Suggest to do it close doors.

12:52 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Suggest add following to the penultimate paragraph:

"If Town Councils act assiduously in their fiduciary duties by threatening or taking legal action against residents for lateness in paying their conservancy charges, I now expect these same town councils to act by taking action against those who fraudulently or otherwise, misled or misrepresented their financial products resulting in substantial losses of residents' common funds.Disciplinary action should also be taken against the officials responsible for thoughtless ineptitude in rudimentary investment analysis and decision making".

12:57 PM
Anonymous Harold Lin said...

Mr. Tan,

I agree with siewkhim's view. Please consider carefully.

A close door option may be a better approach.

1:20 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan'

This is a GOOD letter.No improvements needed. Town Councils ought to be accountable to us - the one who PAYS and PAYS.

1:21 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan

First you must know whether the Town Councils (TCs) agree that they have been misled. If they also think that they go in "with their eyes open", then of course case closed. Then you must think how to respond to this.

So before asking TCs to take legal action, you must first ask them to clarify on the above in your letter.

1:32 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan,
For once, Siewkhim is giving a good advice. You may be seen as try to stir up the emotion.

It would be better to do behind closed door with the strategy committee.

1:39 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

no need close door. We are responsible citizens for check and balance (since there is no strong opposition party for this work).

- OTB -

1:46 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know what is my greatest fear? When election time comes along, the garmen throw a few goodies to us, all is forgotten and they continue with their rule.

1:46 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We were branded "greedy" for the extra return just to hedge against inflation investing in these toxic products. Ha, see who has joined the club!

1:47 PM
Anonymous Wilson said...

Dear Mr. Tan,
Please do not be discouraged by some people who try to stop you by citing political pressure. The whole nation is watching what you are doing for the helpless, and in fact the political pressure is on the other side.
One thing you may want to add in your letter is that by investing in those toxic structured products such as high notes and minibonds, are these affected town councils breaching the guidelines that allow them to invest only in safer bonds, equities and unit trust funds? As we all know that structured products are actually not bonds or equities or unit trust funds and are highly risky.

1:51 PM
Blogger michael said...

MM staed that as investors, we should read the prospectus and be aware of the risks and therefore can blame nobody. So likewise, the town council should also have known about the risk and deliberately invested in the product. This deviate from the role the town councils are playing. How can the town council 'gamble' away our monies without the apporval of the residents? There must be accountabilty on the person / team in charge. However ,if town councils had seek financial advice and were made to believe that the structured product are safe, then it had happened similarly to us, the laymen. It is clear-cut case of mis-representation. Our monies can never be recovered but I felt that heads must roll. I hope MM and the relevant authority can see the point and take necessary action.

2:03 PM
Blogger VS Lingam said...

Dear Mr Tan KL,

Your idea of writing to the press is good, but I suggest you pls let someone else drive it. I may be selfish here, but I feel that you are needed more to lead the fight for the rights of the thousands of small retail investors.

Granted, town councils, commercial institutions etc may have also been misled but they had "experts" to advise them. Retail investors had none of this "luxury".

It would be better if residents of the affected town councils write to the press instead. Thank you.

2:08 PM
 
A Tan said...

What about adding

The size of the surplus funds and the inability of the town councils to find safe avenues of investments, shows that something is wrong -- that the funds collected are in excess of the amounts needed to maintain the estates.

2:08 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Tan, You are treading on thin ice.You will be stepping on someone's toe. I believe they are trying to hush it up.Forget it . I suggest you focus on the ordinary investors . We are near there.

2:09 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan

May I suggest the following to replace the para "I suspect that the town council were probably misled...." by

"It would be enlightening if the Town Councils would shed light on how they began to invest in these credit linked notes. Did the Town Council actively search for such instruments to "diversity" their portfolio or did the banks knock at their doors. In either case, it would be useful to know how the investment team in the Town Council came to the conclusion that such products are suitable. If there is mis-selling, it is the fudiciary duty of the Town Council to pursue further".

for your consideration...

2:10 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think close door is the right approach. This concerns thousands of affected constituents and 10K affected noteholders. It is better to be transparent in the discussions.

The letter is good, I see no amendments needed.

2:15 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a great letter, please send to Lianhe Zaobao also

2:19 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why closed door approach?
What happens to democracy?

2:26 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is the Straits Times going to publish this letter ? - Hope so!
Even if they do, is our two TC's going to say that they were misled by the RM's FIs and hence going to seek compensation ? - unlikely !
Why?
Looking at those comments (which i will call them 'justifications') given by our MPs for and on behalf of the TCs, the Message is clear : don blame your TCs folks, because :
1. they are also victims of this unforseen financial crisis. (hindsight is irrelevant : they went in with eyes opened but unforseen circumstances occurred!)
2.They had been prudent with your money, only lost 6.7% /2.6% out of the 35% that they are allowed to ( be grateful it's not more !)
3.overall there are still accumulated surpluses in these TCs
(so this loss of $14M is immmaterail !)
4.They ought to buy these structured products in order to preserve value of your money as inflation is higher that FD int.( so they are good financial adviser
doing a neccessary job!)
Conclusion : looks like our TCs is going to accept
1. that they went in 'with their eyes opened'
2. 'buyer aware' applied
3. that they are resigned to their bad luck brought about by the financail crisis
Of course, hopefully, i am wrong about this.
Don know if there is any legal and policy implications, just to say that this event of TCs losses which only surfaced recently may not neccesarily be a good thing for investors seeking compensation from FIs. If the two biggest 'investors' with biggest 'losses' in Singapore is not complaining, why should you ?

2:33 PM
Anonymous A Tan said...

Why not sent it to each town council? Or that PAP co-ordinator

Friend asking -- TKL gave up on petitions is it? Why not petition town councils he say.

2:33 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For our cause against those big bullies,
all of us should help to write to Town councils, all print medias, post in blogs and MPs.

ch

2:36 PM
Blogger Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans said...

Dear Mr. Tan:

Thank you for your proposal to write to the 8 Town Councils concerning their losses of investments in toxic credit-linked products. The rate-payers certainly have the rights to seek answers from the 8 Town Councils and to press for recovery of these ill-advised investments.

In preparing your Letter-to-the Editor, you might want to consult the excellent postings at Singapore Kopitiam Forum:

(1) 8 Town Councils' losses scorecard
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13511.1

(2) 8 PAP TCs lost $16 mil in investments
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13373.1

(3) Who cares when town councils lost money?
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13529.1

(4) Town Council Revelation of losses
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13517.1

(5) Town Council ignorant about risky bonds
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13571.1

(6) Town councils lost $12 million
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13309.1

(7) Town Council losses: Who's accountable?
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13534.1

(8) Town council lost $12M ??? ...Who cares!
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13505.1

May I suggest that the letter be sent to the Straits Times and copied to all 8 Town Councils for their responses?

Regards,
Victor Sun
Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sunkopitiam

2:37 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In today's The New Paper, someone said:

"When more and more people think that a product is low risk, the bubble situation may arise where a low risk product might explode in your face and become a high risk product.'"

Huh? Lim Bei Liak Bo Kui!

2:44 PM
Blogger bui said...

1.47pm,
Only Ignorant idiots say investors, (including the town councils, professors and MP's, of course)are greedy. But they themselves put their money in CPF special account earning the same interests as investors instead of Fixed deposits or the ordinary account. And they elect these MP's

2:51 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Town Council definitely must pursue as it is their responsibility. Otherwise, the respective MP must pay from their own pocket. Is this fair Teo Ho Pin, to start with your own pocket! Surprising to hear that Ho Pin argued that the residents should call themselves lucky! I think he owes the people an apology!

2:57 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The number is not correct - 10,700 are the DBS HN5, ML Jubilee3, LB Minibond all series & Pinnacle CLN 9 & 10.

There are more testng the water now such as DBS HN2 & Pinnacles CLN 1,2,3,5,6 & 7.

It can easily add up to 15,000.

Institutional buyers concern, it is reported that Holland-Bt Timah TC lock $3m in Pinnacle CLN 6 and PS 6 can only permit not more than 2 REs in reference portfolio of the underlying assets to fail completely (judge from the recent auction of the three Islandic banks which could only reaslise an extremelly low 1.25%, 3% & 6.625% of the par value)

2:58 PM
Blogger Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans said...

Dear Mr. Tan:

Regarding your 2nd draft, the information mentioned in the first paragraph is not accurate. There are 8 Town Councils losing $16 million in toxic investments.

May I suggest you replace the first sentence "The Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council and the Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council have invested a combined sum of $12 million in the credit-linked notes." by "The Holland-Bt Panjang Town Council, Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council, Ang Mo Kio-Yio Chu Kang Town Council, Hong Kah Town Council, Tampines Town Council, Aljunied Town Council, Marine Parade Town Council, and Tanjong Pagar Town Council have invested a combined sum of approximately $16 million in the credit-linked notes."

Regards,
Victor Sun
Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sunkopitiam

2:59 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan,
Instead of writing to the press, it will be better that you turn this into a petition for all Singaporeans to request the Town Councils to respond.

Please take care.

3:03 PM
 
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
CPF Medishield
Dear Mr. Tan,

I'm thinking of buying a health insurance but in the market there is so many health insurance. Could you recommend me one company that is providing the best health insurance?

I will be out of job soon, as my company is moving its operations to another country. I'm now 35 years old.

REPLY

I recommend CPF Medishield. As you will be losing a job, there is no need to spend so much money on a private Shield plan.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 8:54 AM
 
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Town councils should take legal action for mis-selling
This letter has been sent to Straits Times, Today and Zaobao.

Editor
Forum Page
Straits Times

Eight town councils have invested a combined sum of about $16 million in the credit-linked notes, including the minibonds, pinnacle notes, high notes and jubilee notes. Some of these notes are worthless. Others have lost a large part of their value.

The funds of these town councils belong to the residents who pay the conservancy charges. The town councils have the fiduciary duty to invest these funds carefully.

I suggest that the town councils explain if, when making the investment, they were aware that the credit linked notes carry the risk of the entire loss of the principal on a credit event involving any one of 5 to 8 reference entities, and the additional risks of the defaults of a certain number of 100 to 150 underlying assets, cormprising of collateralised debt obligations, subprime mortgages and other risky products?

Were the town councils aware that the risks of these credit linked notes are many times of the risk of default of a single entity? Does the return of around 5% commensurate with this high risk?

Were the town councils misled by the financial adviser who sold the notes or by the mis-representation contained in the sales materials or prospectus. If this is the case, I suggest that the town councils should take a legal case against the distributor for their negligence or bad advice and to seek fair compensation for their losses.

As the sums involved are quite large, the town councils should take the appropriate action to discharge their fiduciary duty to the residents.

If the town councils succeed in their action, the outcome will indirectly benefit over 10,000 helpless individuals who were also misled into investing in these credit linked notes.

Tan Kin Lian
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 12:05 PM
 
79 Comments
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think town councils are just like us, being misled to think that these products are relatively safe. Nobody is silly enough to risk the whole principal for that 5%pa profit.
I hope the government will seriously look into this big matter. Otherwise in no time, we will see hike in conservancy fees.

Jasmin

12:17 PM
Anonymous Harold Lin said...

Indeed the sums investment are by no means small. On HINDSIGHT the investment made by the town council looked like a bad move. But in terms of weightage allocated to these investments within the portfolio, I would argue that the allocation was prudent.

It was responsible as it practiced 'divesification'.

This is my 2cts.

12:31 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

who did these town council buy from?

did the person representing the town council bought from a FA he/she knows personally?

this information ought to be made public now that money has been lost.

12:34 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a great letter. This is to shutup the naysayers who said why complain over a failed investment. Even with BIG OPEN-EYE, the town councils can fall into mis-selling.

- OTB -

12:37 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan,

So everyone is being MISLED by the average 20something Relationship Manager??? Some PAP MPs were reported to have lost their money in such Notes too. So they are also MISled??? So they should also take legal action???

FOR GOD'S SAKE, PLEASE WAKE UP!!!

12:48 PM
Blogger siewkhim said...

Kin Lian,

By doing this openly, you may be making additional powerful enemies who are financially and politically protected.

It will make your other job more difficult and problematic for the "victimised" investors.

I think you are threading on very dangerous grounds.

Suggest to do it close doors.

12:52 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Suggest add following to the penultimate paragraph:

"If Town Councils act assiduously in their fiduciary duties by threatening or taking legal action against residents for lateness in paying their conservancy charges, I now expect these same town councils to act by taking action against those who fraudulently or otherwise, misled or misrepresented their financial products resulting in substantial losses of residents' common funds.Disciplinary action should also be taken against the officials responsible for thoughtless ineptitude in rudimentary investment analysis and decision making".

12:57 PM
Anonymous Harold Lin said...

Mr. Tan,

I agree with siewkhim's view. Please consider carefully.

A close door option may be a better approach.

1:20 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan'

This is a GOOD letter.No improvements needed. Town Councils ought to be accountable to us - the one who PAYS and PAYS.

1:21 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan

First you must know whether the Town Councils (TCs) agree that they have been misled. If they also think that they go in "with their eyes open", then of course case closed. Then you must think how to respond to this.

So before asking TCs to take legal action, you must first ask them to clarify on the above in your letter.

1:32 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan,
For once, Siewkhim is giving a good advice. You may be seen as try to stir up the emotion.

It would be better to do behind closed door with the strategy committee.

1:39 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

no need close door. We are responsible citizens for check and balance (since there is no strong opposition party for this work).

- OTB -

1:46 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know what is my greatest fear? When election time comes along, the garmen throw a few goodies to us, all is forgotten and they continue with their rule.

1:46 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We were branded "greedy" for the extra return just to hedge against inflation investing in these toxic products. Ha, see who has joined the club!

1:47 PM
Anonymous Wilson said...

Dear Mr. Tan,
Please do not be discouraged by some people who try to stop you by citing political pressure. The whole nation is watching what you are doing for the helpless, and in fact the political pressure is on the other side.
One thing you may want to add in your letter is that by investing in those toxic structured products such as high notes and minibonds, are these affected town councils breaching the guidelines that allow them to invest only in safer bonds, equities and unit trust funds? As we all know that structured products are actually not bonds or equities or unit trust funds and are highly risky.

1:51 PM
Blogger michael said...

MM staed that as investors, we should read the prospectus and be aware of the risks and therefore can blame nobody. So likewise, the town council should also have known about the risk and deliberately invested in the product. This deviate from the role the town councils are playing. How can the town council 'gamble' away our monies without the apporval of the residents? There must be accountabilty on the person / team in charge. However ,if town councils had seek financial advice and were made to believe that the structured product are safe, then it had happened similarly to us, the laymen. It is clear-cut case of mis-representation. Our monies can never be recovered but I felt that heads must roll. I hope MM and the relevant authority can see the point and take necessary action.

2:03 PM
Blogger VS Lingam said...

Dear Mr Tan KL,

Your idea of writing to the press is good, but I suggest you pls let someone else drive it. I may be selfish here, but I feel that you are needed more to lead the fight for the rights of the thousands of small retail investors.

Granted, town councils, commercial institutions etc may have also been misled but they had "experts" to advise them. Retail investors had none of this "luxury".

It would be better if residents of the affected town councils write to the press instead. Thank you.

2:08 PM
Anonymous A Tan said...

What about adding

The size of the surplus funds and the inability of the town councils to find safe avenues of investments, shows that something is wrong -- that the funds collected are in excess of the amounts needed to maintain the estates.

2:08 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Tan, You are treading on thin ice.You will be stepping on someone's toe. I believe they are trying to hush it up.Forget it . I suggest you focus on the ordinary investors . We are near there.

2:09 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan

May I suggest the following to replace the para "I suspect that the town council were probably misled...." by

"It would be enlightening if the Town Councils would shed light on how they began to invest in these credit linked notes. Did the Town Council actively search for such instruments to "diversity" their portfolio or did the banks knock at their doors. In either case, it would be useful to know how the investment team in the Town Council came to the conclusion that such products are suitable. If there is mis-selling, it is the fudiciary duty of the Town Council to pursue further".

for your consideration...

2:10 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think close door is the right approach. This concerns thousands of affected constituents and 10K affected noteholders. It is better to be transparent in the discussions.

The letter is good, I see no amendments needed.

2:15 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a great letter, please send to Lianhe Zaobao also

2:19 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why closed door approach?
What happens to democracy?

2:26 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is the Straits Times going to publish this letter ? - Hope so!
Even if they do, is our two TC's going to say that they were misled by the RM's FIs and hence going to seek compensation ? - unlikely !
Why?
Looking at those comments (which i will call them 'justifications') given by our MPs for and on behalf of the TCs, the Message is clear : don blame your TCs folks, because :
1. they are also victims of this unforseen financial crisis. (hindsight is irrelevant : they went in with eyes opened but unforseen circumstances occurred!)
2.They had been prudent with your money, only lost 6.7% /2.6% out of the 35% that they are allowed to ( be grateful it's not more !)
3.overall there are still accumulated surpluses in these TCs
(so this loss of $14M is immmaterail !)
4.They ought to buy these structured products in order to preserve value of your money as inflation is higher that FD int.( so they are good financial adviser
doing a neccessary job!)
Conclusion : looks like our TCs is going to accept
1. that they went in 'with their eyes opened'
2. 'buyer aware' applied
3. that they are resigned to their bad luck brought about by the financail crisis
Of course, hopefully, i am wrong about this.
Don know if there is any legal and policy implications, just to say that this event of TCs losses which only surfaced recently may not neccesarily be a good thing for investors seeking compensation from FIs. If the two biggest 'investors' with biggest 'losses' in Singapore is not complaining, why should you ?

2:33 PM
Anonymous A Tan said...

Why not sent it to each town council? Or that PAP co-ordinator

Friend asking -- TKL gave up on petitions is it? Why not petition town councils he say.

2:33 PM
 
Anonymous said...

For our cause against those big bullies,
all of us should help to write to Town councils, all print medias, post in blogs and MPs.

ch

2:36 PM
Blogger Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans said...

Dear Mr. Tan:

Thank you for your proposal to write to the 8 Town Councils concerning their losses of investments in toxic credit-linked products. The rate-payers certainly have the rights to seek answers from the 8 Town Councils and to press for recovery of these ill-advised investments.

In preparing your Letter-to-the Editor, you might want to consult the excellent postings at Singapore Kopitiam Forum:

(1) 8 Town Councils' losses scorecard
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13511.1

(2) 8 PAP TCs lost $16 mil in investments
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13373.1

(3) Who cares when town councils lost money?
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13529.1

(4) Town Council Revelation of losses
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13517.1

(5) Town Council ignorant about risky bonds
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13571.1

(6) Town councils lost $12 million
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13309.1

(7) Town Council losses: Who's accountable?
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13534.1

(8) Town council lost $12M ??? ...Who cares!
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sunkopitiam&msg=13505.1

May I suggest that the letter be sent to the Straits Times and copied to all 8 Town Councils for their responses?

Regards,
Victor Sun
Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sunkopitiam

2:37 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In today's The New Paper, someone said:

"When more and more people think that a product is low risk, the bubble situation may arise where a low risk product might explode in your face and become a high risk product.'"

Huh? Lim Bei Liak Bo Kui!

2:44 PM
Blogger bui said...

1.47pm,
Only Ignorant idiots say investors, (including the town councils, professors and MP's, of course)are greedy. But they themselves put their money in CPF special account earning the same interests as investors instead of Fixed deposits or the ordinary account. And they elect these MP's

2:51 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Town Council definitely must pursue as it is their responsibility. Otherwise, the respective MP must pay from their own pocket. Is this fair Teo Ho Pin, to start with your own pocket! Surprising to hear that Ho Pin argued that the residents should call themselves lucky! I think he owes the people an apology!

2:57 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The number is not correct - 10,700 are the DBS HN5, ML Jubilee3, LB Minibond all series & Pinnacle CLN 9 & 10.

There are more testng the water now such as DBS HN2 & Pinnacles CLN 1,2,3,5,6 & 7.

It can easily add up to 15,000.

Institutional buyers concern, it is reported that Holland-Bt Timah TC lock $3m in Pinnacle CLN 6 and PS 6 can only permit not more than 2 REs in reference portfolio of the underlying assets to fail completely (judge from the recent auction of the three Islandic banks which could only reaslise an extremelly low 1.25%, 3% & 6.625% of the par value)

2:58 PM
Blogger Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans said...

Dear Mr. Tan:

Regarding your 2nd draft, the information mentioned in the first paragraph is not accurate. There are 8 Town Councils losing $16 million in toxic investments.

May I suggest you replace the first sentence "The Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council and the Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council have invested a combined sum of $12 million in the credit-linked notes." by "The Holland-Bt Panjang Town Council, Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council, Ang Mo Kio-Yio Chu Kang Town Council, Hong Kah Town Council, Tampines Town Council, Aljunied Town Council, Marine Parade Town Council, and Tanjong Pagar Town Council have invested a combined sum of approximately $16 million in the credit-linked notes."

Regards,
Victor Sun
Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sunkopitiam

2:59 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Tan,
Instead of writing to the press, it will be better that you turn this into a petition for all Singaporeans to request the Town Councils to respond.

Please take care.

3:03 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan,
Earlier on you fight for 10,000 individual,which is commendable.
Now you try to find fault with the top men in the TC . This is unwise.
Let someone else do it.
You are a very nice man please dont get into troble.

3:08 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just look at page 3 of TODAY paper and see how arrogant Dr Teo is. Instead of being apologetic, he is now asking the residents to "be thankful" - for what? for voting him in and making such blunders!

3:10 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suggest Mr Tan do a petition as well. Many residents would want the lossess investigated and accounted for.

3:11 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about doing all?
1) Writes to all the press
2) Writes to the town councils
3) Petition to the ministry in charge of town council
4) Hold rallies in Hong Lim Park
5) Writes to MPs to bring up in Parliment.

Just don't let them sweep under the carpet and gives us MAS Selamat accountability.

3:16 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Mr. Tan, please proceed as soon as you can.

All the points you raised are valid. In fact, these points should be raised by the MPs who are responsible for all “checks and balances” and they are sitting in this specific Parliament session.

You can also ask residents of Pasir Ris-Punggol to provide you list of board members who involved in approval of Investments, including these ‘risky credit-linked notes’.
Then you can approach those board members who have solid financial knowledge.Their inputs will be part of a chapter, titled “Negligence or Wilful mis-selling? “, in yr new book.

3:19 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know you mean well and your angle is to help the current batch of investors whom you are helping. But I doubt the TC's will ever admit to being misled. It's just not politically correct within the party to admit their own folly or shame. Look at the arrogant way they put it: "you should be thankful....bla bla bla".

I would prefer to Petition the President to do his job to call for an investigation on how these monies were lost through such investments and to review their risk categorisation. Petitioning to the PAP- PM would be a conflict of interest anyway. These are public funds and rightly so, these losses have to accounted for to the people of Singapore as a majority of TC's have been involved in varying amounts.
The SS

3:45 PM
Blogger Everlearning said...

Dear Mr Tan,
Now that all Singaporeans know about most of the Town Councils bought into these dubious structured financial products, we are waiting to see and hear what will be the follow-up of this matter.

It is very obvious that either they keep in their passive mode (do nothing about it) or join with us to ask for compensations from the banks or financial insitutions.

Obviously, they cannot write-off these losses because the public funds are not minimal sums ($12 millions or $16 millions).

3:54 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan

Please consider carefully, those who are affected would want you to go ahead. I as one of the victims hope that you can protect yourself because we need you and do not wish you get into trouble.

3:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do applaud you for what you are doing for normal citizens like us. Thread carefully though.

3:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan

What SiewKhim said is right, please consider carefully. Those who are affected would like you to go ahead, as one of the victims, I would like you to protect yourself because we need you, please do not get into trouble.

4:03 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr.Tan,

I am here fully support you and all the investors. Ignor those people who critized on you. As long as you know yourself well that you are helping the helpless investors.

Now, I saw how HK had handle this matter with efficiency. Singapore is far behind HK. All of you must act faster toward sue the bank.

Town Council should also join your group to act together. The money from town council are from the people.

Such a big amount can help so many poor and needy people. It were lost in this way, so sad.

4:41 PM
 
Anonymous said...

If what we do is considered radical and extreme by the government and ruling party, then there is no democracy in singapore. We are just crying out for help for something unfair done to us.

4:46 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan,

It may not be a good idea for you to put your name to this letter to the press, as you may draw further flag from the authorities. I share the same setiments as VS Lingam (2.08pm)

Perhaps a resident from one of the TCs involved can send this letter and, as a concerned resident whose money has been "wasted" away, justify his action in querying the TCs.

$16 million is not a small sum. Can the members of the TCs cough out this amount to compensate the residents?

I am not sure whether the press will publish this letter as I note that none of the letter against the authorities have been publish but a letter against you was published this week.

Concerned Investor

4:52 PM
Blogger VS Lingam said...

Town Councils need to answer the flwg simple question:-

Were they told that these investments were low-risk?

If the answer is YES, then they were misled. Hence Town Council must take remedial action to recover their loss, either by seeking compensation from the FI or the legal route.

If the answer is NO, then they knew that these were very risky investments. So why did they invest in them for only 5% interest versus total loss of investment? There are other safer ways to diversify.

Town Councils must come clean on this.

4:57 PM
Anonymous Jacky Goh said...

Mr.Tan,perhaps before sending the letter to the press, let your readers sign like as in a petition so that you won't be so affected. We Singaporeans have a right to know, in addition, your letter will carry more weight and so The Straits Times will publish it. They can't ignore not to publish the letter if more than ten thousands ppl sign it. I will definitely sign it.

Whatever you are doing, it is for Singapore. I believe most of us are all praying for you (I do) and God is looking out for you. You have shown me what courage to pursue the truth is. You are an epitome of what integrity is about. Doing the right thing inspite of unknown danger.

Indeed I am concerned. Do you know Teo Ho Ping in Today paper,said that we should be thankful? It is inappropriate for a minister to comment like that after losing $8 million of hard-earned money. I believe he lack the financial prudence and foresight like you to invest in this toxic product. Hmm, what he said just make Singaporeans' blood boiled. At least, he should be gracious and say sorry for making mistake. We Singapoeans are not unreasonable. We understand that no one want to invest to lose money. Hmm, I have a feeling our govt is going downhill. Just look at how arrogant our ministers are, asking us to be thankful when they lost $8 million. If they think they are entitled to lose our hard-earned money since they made profits in previous investment (dangerous comment), I think they are not fit to be ministers. If they continue like that, I will not vote for them again.
I am now afraid the old Chinese saying will come true, Wealth do not last 3 generations. The effort of our predecessors Dr.Goh, Lee Kuan Yew and other great leaders are being squandered by current ministers like Teo Ho Pin who think it is alright to lose money, very worrying.

5:35 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr.Tan,

Town councils are obviously misled.
But I do not think they will complain or claim they are misled.
As to them, supporting MAS and the government is more important than the public's interest.

Therefore, I support 3:03PM's suggestions and ask the TCs to disclose their finaicial advisors' report. Did they suggested the TCs buy the products as low risk products or as high-risk products to seek for the highest return? If TCs bought the products as low-risk products, they are obviously misled to buy the actually high-risk products and FIs should compensate the TCs.

XH

5:41 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr.Tan,

Pls send the letter to publish. You work with courage. There must not be any fierce there.

If you think whatever is right. Go ahead and do it.

Many investors are count on you.
I am sure, you can, you will success.
政府这次真的失算了。明明是可以争取民心的机会现在反而让人民感觉社会公义的失去。

5:43 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

股市 > 財經新聞 > 國際財經
寄給朋友 友善列印
低風險變高風險 英國AIG苦主擬控巴克萊等4大銀行誤導
2008/11/17 13:55 鉅亨網


【鉅亨網編輯查淑妝‧台北綜合報導】 英國一批投資者指控巴克萊財富、匯豐、Coutts和 瑞銀等4間大銀行，指它們在推銷美國國際集團(AIG)一 個基金時誤導，將該基金聲稱是「存款以外的一種低風 險投資」，結果害他們損失高達25%投資本金。

《香港文匯報》引述《星期日泰晤士報》報導，有 500名投資者已向這 4間大型銀行發出公開信，指它們 在推廣「Premier Access Bond Enhanced」時誤導，指 該基金實際是投資於通用汽車等美國大企業發行的 「AAA」和「AA」級債券，債券價值因信貸危機暴跌， AIG擔心資金流失引到崩潰，今年 9月已停止該基金運 作。

該基金共有5500名投資者，平均每人持有約 100萬 英鎊。該500人組成網上組織「AIG苦主」，表示其中一 人投資達7000萬英鎊。

他們說：「若銀行拒絕賠償損失，將提出集體訴訟 ，索賠10億英鎊。」

巴克萊財富表示會嚴肅處理誤導指控，並徹查事件 ；Coutts和匯豐都表示正與受影響的戶商討；瑞銀則未 有置評。
Hi all i download this from yahoo finance pls 5,500 investor lost 25% of their investment they want to sue the the FI for mis-selling. What abt all of us.

5:43 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Low Thia Khiang and opposition members in parliament of the Republic of Singapore.

If you are reading this blog, i urge you to do something like what is proposed, to demand of the ruling party to be accountable to their actions re. the Town Council fiasco. This is the right thing for the opposition party to do!

It is incorrect for Tankin lian to approach the opposition party as this will politicise the situation and make it as though tan kin lian wants to join politics.

It is incorrect also for Tankin lian to send this letter to the government. He is a mere citizen and has little power to challenge the Town Council machinery.

IT is the time for the opposition party to use their rhetorical skill, their logical powers of debate and demand action. When individual investors are burnt we can let Tan kin lian handle. When Town Council is burned, tan kin lian is not the correct party to act. If Oppostion don't speak up, how can we vote for you again in future? You should step down as well..

regards

5:56 PM
 
Anonymous said...

Yes, it is a shame that Straits Times only published letter that criticised you but not the letters that criticised the govt. It is not a fair newspaper.

I now realised the danger of one-party. It seem that no minister is voicing their concerns in this saga but instead said be thankful. Yes provided the one party is honest, transparent and not arrogant. If they think just because they helped to propel singapore to success, now they have the right to waste the effort of our previous ministers? Last time, I was against two parties, now I think it is a danger to have one party in Singapore. Of course the oppositions must be capable. But sad to say, our current oppositions are weak, it seem that they are not doing much to help to voice out but only Mr.Tan is helping the investors. To build a credible oppositions party, there must be people of high calibre to match the PAP. I now realised the danger of one party is that some ministers are afraid to voice their opinions that differ to the leader as it will affect their promotion. Who want to offend the big boss? Sad, I thought there are some good ministers in pap, but they are not speaking out for the poor investors.

5:59 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan
I have nothing but sincere high praise for you. You are indeed my Hero.

Everyday I feel sad for all the ordinary people in Singapore whether old or young, educate or uneducated. It seems now that it's more advantageous to be uneducated. In this particular financial crisis situation in Singapore, the irony is that being educated has now backfired on us when many of the people have spent thousands of dollars to obtain higher education.
Taking away ordinary people's hard earned money was easy (because Singaporeans for many years have trusted the financial institutations and system). It seems like Robin Hood is stealing from the average/poor income earners to give to the rich/banks. Common Singaporeans (unlike the American society which is very litigious), are not litigious, we do not know how to sue and we don't have lawyers. Banks are producing documents for customers to sign, many sign out of the big word 'TRUST'. How many really understand all the technicalities and financial jargons used in the documents although educated. Are Singaporeans now called upon to engage a lawyer whenever they go to a bank. Even opening FDs, a customer would have to sign a document consisting of several pages of small prints. This trust I think has now been shattered for many. Are we building a society of mistrust? I am certain our town councils also went into it out of trust.

6:38 PM
Blogger nhyone said...

What has happened is not interesting.

What is interesting is how much more of the TC's investments are in such now-risky structured products.

News report said stat boards have 14% in CLN, but it didn't reveal the amount.

6:40 PM
Anonymous nicholas loh said...

Mr Tan,

Forget about writing to the press on this one. I know you are doing the right thing but the elites will not allow you to get away with it. The political machine will come out in full swing to discredit you, cast doubt on your motive,and it will be very ugly. Our society will not be able to give you the support to stop them, and you may find yourself the loneliest person on this island. Just look at all the comments --- how many are willing to post their names!

Even ST has allowed personal attacks against you be posted in its forum pages. Consider why the editors allow it to be printed? They are part of the establishment.

The way our society are structured will leave your efforts furtile. Continue to champion the plight of individual invstors and the elites will find it hard and politically damaging to fault "Robin Hood".

nicholas loh

7:09 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe TC went in like average investors, they know the 6 or 8 reference entities but not the "underlying" 100over companies or CDO assets that are unknown at the time of investingin. So no matter how you "walked in with eyes opened" you still hit the lamp post.

B.Y

8:32 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Tan,

If you ever run for president, you have my vote.

I am sure you will not just attend ceremonies, shake hands, go for official holidays etc. You will be a REAL president! Ask lots of questions as what the one before this one did.

9:00 PM
Blogger Monsoon said...

Since Susan Long has exposed NKF Durai, how about encouraging her to investigate and write an article on this? or has she left? Where is Lee Han Shih? He is one guy who call a spade a spade. Singapore need more of such people give us a viable alternative to the current establishment which seem to be out of touch with the reality on the ground. It has become a them and us mentality.

9:06 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello folks,
The MPs in the affected town councils will not ask for compensation. Those money lost are YOUR money not THEIR money. See the clear picture. In addition to that, they want to maintain good relationship with the FIs in order to build OUR DREAM FINANCIAL HUB!!!!!

9:18 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All town councils should open their accounts for inspection by residents if requested.

9:23 PM
Blogger Monsoon said...

Dear Mr Tan - Beyond the issue of minbonds, you are teaching us fellow Singaporean to learn to stand up and not be afraid of the authority when we are upright and we speak the truth. On the other hand, the authority is afraid now because they are denying the truth.
The authority has many ways to counter you and I am sure they will not let this pass lest they lose their authority. They will try to retake the initiative from you.

To retreat is something they hope you will do like when you decide not to push further after the Income agm, it's a waiting game and hoping you will do something they can pin you up against.

How about getting a permit to organising a bicycling event at the ECP? It should be non political but to improve our health and take our mind off the stress due to the losses incurred by so many investors?

9:29 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Tan,

Please recalculate the percentage of their potofilo.

It should be percentage of allowed invesment amount but not percentage of total amount. Then you can see much higer portion was invest in these CDO products and the only reason to explain the high allocation is they believe it is a very low risk product.

9:45 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A lot of pple i notice was really focused on

1. Personal Justice and Refund
2. Authority Investigation and FI response
3. Several Ministers Response
4. Town Council Involvement



Have anyone ever spare a second and think

WHY WOULD THE MEDIA RELEASE THE TOWN COUNCIL INVOLVEMENT AT THIS STAGE?

Ok some might say

i. They have been slowly counting up their losses
ii. They realize paper cant wrap up fire



But have anyone seriously think why would they make such announcements KNOWING fully well of the several Ministers' responses before that

What prompted them to release such info, and most imptly, WHY

There could be 2 primary reasons:

A. They might also want to get a piece of action at the Refund pie
B. The Almost Unthinkable: They are prepared to take the loss as is



Its easily understandable why they would they want to get into the Refund pie.

BUT what if, just what if its The Unthinkable Plan B??

What if they are ready to forsake those losses, WHAT DOES THAT IMPLY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL INVESTORS

Could they, even as full fledged public organizations have found no better means, legal or otherwise, to have recover those sums!??!

If they cant get back 12million+-, what about the personal investors??

has anyone really thought into that

I had and I feared the worst.

9:51 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9.18PM,
you are right. Town council will not pursue the case because the money isn't theirs. It is ours.
They bochap but the affected constituencies must not let it rest.
They must query the MPs and hold the MPs accountable.
9:51 PM
 
Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan

Some editorial amendments,

"Eight town councils have invested a combined sum of about $16 million in credit-linked notes, including minibonds, pinnacle notes, high notes and jubilee notes. Some of these notes have become worthless. Others have lost a large part of their value.

The funds of these town councils belong to the residents who pay the conservancy charges. The town councils have a clear fiduciary duty to invest these funds carefully as well as be answerable for their actions.

The town councils should explain if, when making the investment, they were aware that the credit linked notes carry the risk of the entire loss of the principal on a credit event involving any one of 5 to 8 reference entities. Were they also aware of the additional risks of the defaults of a certain number of the 100 to 150 underlying assets, comprising collateralised debt obligations, subprime mortgages and other risky products?

Were the town councils aware that the risks of these credit linked notes are many times that of the risk of default of a single entity? Is the return of approximately 5% commensurate with this high risk?

Were the town councils misled by the financial adviser(s) who sold the notes or by any mis-representations contained in the sales materials or prospectus. If this is the case, I suggest that the town councils should take legal action against the distributor(s) for their negligence and/or bad advice and seek fair compensation for their losses.

As the sums involved are quite large, the town councils should take appropriate action to discharge their fiduciary duty to the residents. They should act to protect the interests of the residents under their care.

If the town councils succeed in their action, the outcome will also indirectly benefit over 10,000 helpless individuals who were also misled into investing in these credit linked notes. However, regardless of that, the town councils do have a duty to ensure that they look after the interests of their constituents.

10:03 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

don't you think something wrong with these credit-linked products - normally when a credit event happens, credit protection sellers like many affected investors here, should be able to lay claim on assets like those toxic houses in America, however these products have probably be structured to the extent that now protection sellers here get zero.

10:50 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the announcement came at a time that provides a small window of timeframe for parliament. if it was released on during the immediate aftermath of sept 15, then many NMPs and other particpants can prepare many questions in advance. i imagine we should be able to see a good ending for 10,000 investors because potong pasir and hougang has not lost money, surely PAP must win the losses back, otherwise it is a loss of face. having said that, i think MM must feel really bad, as if given a black eye by the announcement, because he coined the phrase "going in with eyes opened wide". if only he was briefed about the losses before his comments.... or was he?

11:17 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tan,

Would you consider running for Singapore presidency in the next elections?

11:29 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wonder besides saying each town council can use up to xx% of the sinking funds in shares/bonds... as reported by the minister, should ask what are the detailed guidelines for investment ? Can't be no strict guidelines when it is dealing with our citizens' money right ? Was there guideline that investment must be principal protected ? Did TC violate the guideline ?
BH

11:41 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear all,

Besides Mr.Tan, we also need people like Susan Long, Tan Sai Siong, Lee Han Shih, Toh Thian Ser.... We need their supports to write some articles forcusing on the ‘toxic structured products sold to retail bank customers’!

12:03 AM
Blogger Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans said...

Hi Mr Tan:

Thanks for your excellent work.

Those investors losing their investment money on minibonds, DBS High Notes, Pinnacles, etc. should also pressurize their respective Town Councils that lost money in credit-linked notes to recover the Town Council's investments from the Financial Institutions. These are their rights as residents in the constituencies governed by the Town Councils

The more people act on these, the better chance to recover the investments.

Regards,
Victor Sun
Singapore Kopitiam - Voices of Singaporeans
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sunkopitiam

12:09 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We all including the Town Councils have been duped by these unscrupulous chow angmos financial engineers in their scam financial products. The Town Councils should step and bring these people to court like what they have done in the US. The Town Councils should be more savy in their investments vis-a-vis the 10,000 thousands (eyes wide open) investors!! Stand up for Singapore & for justice!!!

12:11 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 9:51 wrote:

"Have anyone ever spare a second and think

WHY WOULD THE MEDIA RELEASE THE TOWN COUNCIL INVOLVEMENT AT THIS STAGE?"

When I saw your question the first thing that came to mind was "Is the papers trying to sabotage the govt?" like tossing a lighted cigarette at a fuel depot?

12:11 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One point my uncle who "invested" in the minibonds told me. He was not being greedy he protested, but he had no choice but to try to maximize whatever savings he had because he cannot expect the government to help him. If he did not invest, his money would not be enough. I was struck by what he said because it is true: many retired with inadequate savings to last their old age and they do not have any sympathy or help from the state. My uncle invested and now his money is gone. So all he can do is wait for old age and death.

12:19 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it may be useful to advance the planned meeting at Hong Lim Park next Saturday to this Saturday 22 November.

12:20 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The release of information about the losses by the Town Councils and MAS are part of an overall political move to show that these are legitimate products. The move is to defeat the arguement that these are illegal products which should never been sold to the investing public in the first place.

Politically, there is no way that a legal action will be allowed to succeed in the Singapore's courts. The Singapore courts are fair 99% of the time. However in the 1% of the time that the decision has significant political implications, then there will be executive guidance on what the "correct" decision should be.

Hence while there is considerable anxiety to do something now, it would be best to wait for a precedent to be established in another jurisdiction e.g. Hong Kong. If there are a series of sucessful law suits across the world where banks are made pay compensation, then it will make it very hard for the Singapore courts to rule against such compensation. The last thing you would want is for a Singapore court to set the legal precedence for such cases.

At the same time, sucessful action overseas would put pressure on the Singapore government to act in a way which is consistent with what has been established internationally. Your blog and speeaches at Hong Lim are therefore crucial since there would be an effective media blackout on such news.

Really appreciate your time and effort to help those who have lost money and ensure that there is a fair outcome.

2:46 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Many bankers are having sleepless nights.
But one fellow who left DBS and enjoy wife with his 'missed family' is laughing his way to swissbank for most succeesful penetration of TOXIC CDOs to Singapore...

The Ex-CEO....
SUMMON HIM

4:49 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can we pin our hope on the town councils involved to join-force with the retail investors to form a larger and louder voice?
But if the gahmen chooses to close both ears, even more bombs dropped are also fruitless.

Jasmin
7:30 AM
 
Thursday, November 20, 2008
Bank Negara Zeti appointed to financial reform task force
Malaysia is one of the very few countries least affected by subprimes and CDOs....thanks to a large extent to Bank Negara Governor Zeti.

Source: Central Banker Analysis
Published on November 19, 2008

The governor of Malaysia’s central bank says early detection and action is critical to minimising financial crises.

Bank Negara Malaysia governor Dr. Zeti Akhtar Aziz was recently appointed a member of the newly-formed United Nations high level task force to examine possible reforms of the global financial system, including the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. She tells The Asian Banker that the current global financial crisis might have been less severe if the multilateral financial institutions had exercised a leadership role at an earlier stage.

“We have not really seen the international financial institutions come forward and certainly not at the early stages of the crisis. They are now coming forward to deal with the effects of the crisis,” says Zeti, who will have a hand in recommending reforms of the institutions through the UN task force known as the Commission of Experts on Reforms of the International Monetary and Financial System.

Since the global financial crisis took a more severe turn in October, some world leaders have called for a new financial world order or a review of the role of the Bretton Woods institutions in promoting financial stability.

Aside from Zeti, the other members of the task force include Chukwuma Soludo, Central Bank of Nigeria governor; Jean-Paul Fitoussi, professor of economics at the Institute d’Etudes Politiques de Paris; Avinash Persaud of Barbados, chairman of Intelligence Capital; Yaga Venugopal Reddy, former governor of the Reserve Bank of India; Eisuke Sakakibara, professor at Waseda University; Yu Yongding, director of the Institute of World Economics and Politics. Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winner for economics and former chief economist at the World Bank, will chair the Commission.

With several Asians on the task force, it is seen as a key platform to give the region a greater voice in efforts to reform the global financial system. Zeti says she hopes international financial institutions will engage more with Asia at the international level to better appreciate Asian perspectives and conditions. There are moves towards achieving this, she adds, as there is a growing appreciation of the fact that Asian participation is crucial in unwinding current global imbalances.

Zeti, who was also appointed chair of the Bank for International Settlements Asian Consultative Council, recognises that it is important for the region to have a strong interface with the rest of the world and appreciates the forums that are paving the way for this. The council is currently assessing the spillover effects of the financial crisis and looking at how these may be best managed.

For Zeti, early detection and action is critical. “I believe that crisis may happen from time to time in different parts of the world, but when there is a detection that the crisis is imminent, it is very critical to take early action, because if early action is not taken then what happens is the crisis has to run its full course,” Zeti points out. In Malaysia’s experience, early intervention reduces the costs of a crisis, she adds.

In the wake of the Asian financial crisis, Malaysia set up entities to acquire the non-performing assets of its beleaguered banks and recapitalised some institutions. Zeti says within six months of initiating these institutional arrangements, the banks started lending again, helping the country recover quickly from the Asian financial crisis. “The cost of the crisis was less than 5% of GDP,” she says. “The main reason for early action is to minimise the costs. Once the crisis is prolonged the deterioration that takes place will be greater and the cost of any resolution or repair is going to be much higher.”

In the current situation, Malaysia itself is preparing for tougher times. Zeti says it is closely monitoring financial institutions and that Bank Negara will take pre-emptive action.

“In the previous crisis we had a debt restructuring committee that dealt with it (non-performing corporate loans), and even during normal times we had a small debt restructuring entity for small and medium scale enterprises that include financial advisory services and so on. We also have such services for households to deal with their financial problems before they result in foreclosures or repossessions and so on. This is what we are managing well before it happens,” Zeti explains.

From a regulatory perspective, Bank Negara is looking at the issues that have surfaced in the crisis, including how to deal with non-regulated institutions when they need liquidity, and how to improve the coordination of regulators within the financial system like the relationship between the central bank and the Securities and Exchange Commission. It will be hoping it has taken the right actions early enough to minimise the pain to the financial system.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 6:09 AM
 
Thursday, November 20, 2008
NTUC Income shares
Hi Mr Tan,

I would like to seek your advise with regards to the Income Shares which i had 'invested' in. Are these shares safe to hold on in the midst of the financial meltdown?

While I had trust in NTUC, I'm just afraid the monies collected by Income could be used to invest in junk derivatives and erode Income's financial position.

Would you be able to offer your advise? Many thanks for your time, and do continue the fighting spirit!

Thomas

REPLY
It should be safe. I also have shares in Income and will keep them during the financial crisis.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 6:30 AM
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

JohnTan
Serious Tan Kin Lian Plans To Act Like A King If He Becomes President! He Will Always Summon PM Lee For A Good Fucking! Sinkies Don't Vote For Him!
Replies
6
Views
1K
LexLuthor
LexLuthor
JohnTan
Serious It's Official! Hamas Is Not A Terrorist Organisation! But Chef Wanker Bayi Admits Hamas Committed Terrorism On 7 Oct 2023!
Replies
10
Views
1K
syed putra
syed putra
JohnTan
Serious PAP Grace Fu Elected As President! Congratulations, Madam President Grace! Majulah PAP!
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
steffychun
steffychun
syed putra
The forgotten warrior who fought single handedly against the dark state. And is still in one piece against all odds.
Replies
0
Views
212
syed putra
syed putra
duluxe
Former Pakistani Prime Minister calls For An Islamic Military Force To Fight Israel. Malays and their Sons should Join instead of KPKB Here!
Replies
11
Views
958
congo9
congo9
Back
Top