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sian? you should not be here in the first place
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IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here. The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.
Meeting at Speaker's Corner 18 Oct, 6-7 pm
- Thread starter Ah Hai
- Start date
sian? you should not be here in the first place
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12 Comments
Blogger G C said...
Never never use the credit term offer by any credit cards. You may use the cards but ensure you pay with the term and not let the card company charge interest. If you find difficulty discipline yourself, the best is DO NOT take any credit cards.
Always spend with yours means. This is the GOLDEN RULE.
G C Tham
11:58 AM
Blogger Concerned said...
Don't forget. Never invest in credit linked products no matter how attractive the product or the RM look like.
12:18 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
help to spread the word around your group of friends - never ever deal with a relationship manager, a personal banker, an insurance agent, etc - if you need any information on any financial matter, there are many friends on this blog, besides Mr Tan, who will be most willing to help.
2:21 PM
Anonymous retiredebtfree01 said...
I think, Begin retirement planning with your first job tip was so important.
retirement plans, retirement planning calculator, retirement planning, early retirement planning, retirement savings, retirement investments
2:37 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Start saving early and young and you will appreciate the power of compounding, even if the starting amount is small.
To illustrate, even with 1 cent a day saved but double the amount every day will give you $5242.88 after only 20 days!
Of course in real life won't be starting with 1 cent or 200% interest per day but still it can be substantial after compounded for some time.
3:12 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Never trust an insurance agent
Never trust a product pusher
Never buy an whole life product
Never buy an endowment product
Never buy a regular ILP
Never buy an Anticipated endowment because it guarantees you lose
Never buy a Limited pay whole life because it gives limited protection and return
Never buy a guaranteed product because it guarantees you lose
Remember an insurance agent can masquerade as financial consultant or by another title.
How to spot one? They behave like above and only sell the above products that give them high commission
Lastly, never ,never, never,trust the mothers and fathers of all product pushers, and pushers of these products who have name card that bear logos like MDRT or COT or TOT, these are proofs that they are product pushers, they push high commission products, they NEVER put your interest first and that is why they have earned logos like those on the name card.
3:37 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Dear Mr. Tan,
You should also add that young people should use the ATM to do all transactions or internet banking but never enter the bank and never talk to RM.
4:14 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I agree with how the anon above said it. Never deal with RMs, insuarance agent and those financial advisors. Because once you get into a talk with them, they will try to psycho you. It's their job. So, to avoid falling into their sweet or scary-stories tactics, please read Mr Tan's blog first. Get your financial ABCs from a financial veteran.
4:25 PM
Anonymous dennis said...
well, you cant even save 15% when you have to plan for your parents retirement, pay for the house, pay for the loans taken during university etc.. talk about every person having a choice to study in university and meritocracy etc, its bullshit.
taking myself as a case study, i have a take home income of 2250.
500 for bank loan (of which 150 is for interest payment), thats the price to pay for studying in uni.
400 for mother who is not working
200 for grandmother
600 for the utilities and hdb flat (not enough though, the hdb is knocking on our doors asking for repayment of late loans every now and then, i suspect repossession in 1-2 years time)
160 for transport
90 for internet and hp
and that leaves me with 300 for food and clothes and going out with gf and saving for our dream home.
end up have to moonlight during weekends and nights.
thats what you have for a meritocratic society with no social security.
i propose interest-free loans for university students and some sort of social security for elderly people, otherwise i suspect there are others like me who have parents who don't even have CPF, how are they going to go through their old age.
sorry for all the rants here, i have been pretty stressed up for the past year since i graduated with the loan payments and such. =(
but the point is, many graduates wont be able to save even 15% with the high cost of living in Sg. And the government rather give more scholarships to foreign talents who zip away once they finish their bonds.
5:01 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
avoid buying at roadshows especially stalls operated by products peddlers from ntuc. I am warning all consumers
because they have only 2 products to sell only. They are high commission products like revosave and vivolife. Worse if they are combined they will give up toxic. So be careful.Don't get burned.If you are at Bugis Junction they have a poster that says $5000 guaranteed. Don't be fooled. To help other passers by call the police to report miselling and misrepresentation and cheating is a crime.
6:02 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I save, save, save....
and it seems those so called Credit Linked products is sweeping away a lot of my saving....
6:06 PM
Blogger G C said...
One of the reason why I was so impress with Mr. Tan' s advise was actually from my own personal experience.
I am a strong believer in taking up life insurance protection. So from the day I started work I have been investing so to say in life insurance and as of to day I am paying an annual premium of about RM40,000. The problem was that though I have the coverage but most of the premium was go to so call saving element and thus reduced the sum insured. The saving portion return was as Mr. TAn say was not that high.
Now after reading Mr. Tan's advise on life insurance I only realized that the best insurance should be reducing term life, ie you pay a small sum but for big protection, and the saving on the premium should go to other form of saving and should not be with the Life Insurance company.
Talking about reducing term life this was exactly what happen with me now, my needs for protection has been keep reducing as my saving over time also have been increase. My saving accumulated so far are much much more then the sum insured now despite I am paying RM40k a year.
That made me strongly agreed with Mr. Tan's advise once should take up reducing term life rather than pure life as the premium was high and the sum insured was low.
The problem was no insurance agent will tell you that fact as I believe the Reducing term Life commission was much much lower than the pure life, that end up all insurance agents are promoting pure life and thus we all made them richer and richer.
Please seriously take note of what Mr. Tan's advise on the life insurance.
7:09 PM
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Friday, November 14, 2008
SCMP
ivine intervention in Legco debate
http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdi...08df6461fb86&pdaffid=8HM4kDzWViwfc7AqkYlqIQ==
13 Nov 2008
The light of heaven was shining in the legislature yesterday when those who opposed a move to empower a Legco subcommittee to probe whether officials and bankers were wrongdoers in the Lehman Brothers minibonds affair turned green on camera in a live broadcast of the meeting.
Immediately after Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee – the only directly elected lawmaker opposing the motion – started her speech, a strong ray of sunshine broke through the top window of the usually gloomy Legco chamber, directly falling on Mrs Ip’s position and engulfing her in an eerie greenish aura. The same happened to David Li Kwok-po, who strongly defended his banking sector’s interest by speaking to oppose the vote.
“Gosh, the light of heaven has revealed their true nature,” one observer said while watching the live broadcast in the Legco corridors of power.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 7:19 AM
SCMP
ivine intervention in Legco debatehttp://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdi...08df6461fb86&pdaffid=8HM4kDzWViwfc7AqkYlqIQ==
13 Nov 2008
The light of heaven was shining in the legislature yesterday when those who opposed a move to empower a Legco subcommittee to probe whether officials and bankers were wrongdoers in the Lehman Brothers minibonds affair turned green on camera in a live broadcast of the meeting.
Immediately after Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee – the only directly elected lawmaker opposing the motion – started her speech, a strong ray of sunshine broke through the top window of the usually gloomy Legco chamber, directly falling on Mrs Ip’s position and engulfing her in an eerie greenish aura. The same happened to David Li Kwok-po, who strongly defended his banking sector’s interest by speaking to oppose the vote.
“Gosh, the light of heaven has revealed their true nature,” one observer said while watching the live broadcast in the Legco corridors of power.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 7:19 AM
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Friday, November 14, 2008
Retrenchment and its impact on Singaporeans
In bad times, businesses have to retrench their employers to cut costs and stop losses. This approach is adopted around the world. Singapore also follows this approach.
I hope that our government leaders realise that the impact of retrenchment on Singaporeans is greater, for the following reasons:
1. In the developed countries, there is unemployment benefit for one or two years to help the laid off workers to adjust to the new situation
2. Many Singaporeans have heavy mortgages and debts to pay. After being retrenched, they will be hounded by the lenders.
3. In the less developed countries, they can survive in the countryside with a lower cost of living. This option is not available in Singapore.
Our government leaders have been proud that Singapore does not have an unemployment insurance system, as it stops people from being lazy and living off the work of others. But this is only one side of the coin. The other side said that there are many hardworking people who lost their jobs due to no fault of their own, and now have to suffer the heavy penalty.
If the company is doing well, the retrenched workers are able to get a fairly generous retrenchment benefit that can tide them over for some time. If not, we need some other measures.
In the absence of unemployment benefit, our laid off workers should be allowed to make modest withdrawals from the Central Provident Fund savings, or have access to interest free loan provided by the government. This are just some suggestions.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 7:22 AM
Retrenchment and its impact on Singaporeans
In bad times, businesses have to retrench their employers to cut costs and stop losses. This approach is adopted around the world. Singapore also follows this approach.
I hope that our government leaders realise that the impact of retrenchment on Singaporeans is greater, for the following reasons:
1. In the developed countries, there is unemployment benefit for one or two years to help the laid off workers to adjust to the new situation
2. Many Singaporeans have heavy mortgages and debts to pay. After being retrenched, they will be hounded by the lenders.
3. In the less developed countries, they can survive in the countryside with a lower cost of living. This option is not available in Singapore.
Our government leaders have been proud that Singapore does not have an unemployment insurance system, as it stops people from being lazy and living off the work of others. But this is only one side of the coin. The other side said that there are many hardworking people who lost their jobs due to no fault of their own, and now have to suffer the heavy penalty.
If the company is doing well, the retrenched workers are able to get a fairly generous retrenchment benefit that can tide them over for some time. If not, we need some other measures.
In the absence of unemployment benefit, our laid off workers should be allowed to make modest withdrawals from the Central Provident Fund savings, or have access to interest free loan provided by the government. This are just some suggestions.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 7:22 AM
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5 Comments
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Hi Mr Tan, thats very nice of you to collect feedback. Are you going to do anything with these feedback after collecting them? Can you share with us your plan and whether you will need help from other Singaporeans? Your questions are propably ahead of its time, the real retrenchments have not land in Singapore yet, so for now the anguish do not exist. It is really the job of the million dollars leaders to worry about this, in they end they will turn around and want Singaporeans to get real, to be less picky, to go for more training. Every time theres a downturn, they made it looks like its the fault of the workers.
8:29 AM
Blogger Everlearning said...
Mr Tan
Thanks for keeping the Government alert about matters that are genuinely concerned the men in the street.
Government should be busy doing or planning how the nation goes forward in such economic environment. I urge the Government to halt their investments overseas; to conserve the country reserves from serverely slashed further by the uncertainties all around the world.
Just like the minibonds, DBS H-notes, Jubilee Series etc... the investors are blamed for walking in with eyes open; I hope GIC and T Holdings walk in with eyes double-open.
8:33 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Now that Pinnacles 9 and 10 nare worthless, There should be more people attending the Sat gathering. In the past, very few Pinnacles holders were there!
9:13 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Jerry said,
During the 1996/97 Asian Financial Crisis, Singapore more or less escaped the Recession whereas our neighbouring countries and Asia were all truely affected!
We were laughing and thinking how lucky we were and now what happens?
We are the first in SEA to announce to the world that we are in Technical Recession....Question is: Are we prepared for the worst?
Panic button is already on the way!
So what jobs for the the retirees when the young and abled are all worried to face the future!
Some companies will take advantage of the situation.The heavy weights like managers/supervisors and higher income group will be first on the chopping blog.
Can the Unions save those affected?
9:33 AM
Blogger george said...
It is painful to get layoff, cutting off a regular income source. This nation is too small and without natural resources, so almost everyone has to depend on some sort of employment job, be it self-employed or being employed. It is at the mercy of the employers' hands to give out compensation. If there is another source to draw from, it can give certain relief to families, at least for a period of time.
11:14 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Hi Mr Tan, thats very nice of you to collect feedback. Are you going to do anything with these feedback after collecting them? Can you share with us your plan and whether you will need help from other Singaporeans? Your questions are propably ahead of its time, the real retrenchments have not land in Singapore yet, so for now the anguish do not exist. It is really the job of the million dollars leaders to worry about this, in they end they will turn around and want Singaporeans to get real, to be less picky, to go for more training. Every time theres a downturn, they made it looks like its the fault of the workers.
8:29 AM
Blogger Everlearning said...
Mr Tan
Thanks for keeping the Government alert about matters that are genuinely concerned the men in the street.
Government should be busy doing or planning how the nation goes forward in such economic environment. I urge the Government to halt their investments overseas; to conserve the country reserves from serverely slashed further by the uncertainties all around the world.
Just like the minibonds, DBS H-notes, Jubilee Series etc... the investors are blamed for walking in with eyes open; I hope GIC and T Holdings walk in with eyes double-open.
8:33 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Now that Pinnacles 9 and 10 nare worthless, There should be more people attending the Sat gathering. In the past, very few Pinnacles holders were there!
9:13 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Jerry said,
During the 1996/97 Asian Financial Crisis, Singapore more or less escaped the Recession whereas our neighbouring countries and Asia were all truely affected!
We were laughing and thinking how lucky we were and now what happens?
We are the first in SEA to announce to the world that we are in Technical Recession....Question is: Are we prepared for the worst?
Panic button is already on the way!
So what jobs for the the retirees when the young and abled are all worried to face the future!
Some companies will take advantage of the situation.The heavy weights like managers/supervisors and higher income group will be first on the chopping blog.
Can the Unions save those affected?
9:33 AM
Blogger george said...
It is painful to get layoff, cutting off a regular income source. This nation is too small and without natural resources, so almost everyone has to depend on some sort of employment job, be it self-employed or being employed. It is at the mercy of the employers' hands to give out compensation. If there is another source to draw from, it can give certain relief to families, at least for a period of time.
11:14 AM
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Speaker's Corner - 15 November 2008
I will be speaking at Speaker's Corner on Saturday 15 November at 5 p.m. I will give an update about the three petitions that have been lodged with the Monetary Authority of Singapore and also give a response to the remark by a Government leader that the investors went in with their "eyes open". Mr. Goh Meng Seng will translate my speech into Chinese.
I like to ask the investors to bring your family and friends to attend this meeting, so that we can have a larger crowd than before.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian
I will be speaking at Speaker's Corner on Saturday 15 November at 5 p.m. I will give an update about the three petitions that have been lodged with the Monetary Authority of Singapore and also give a response to the remark by a Government leader that the investors went in with their "eyes open". Mr. Goh Meng Seng will translate my speech into Chinese.
I like to ask the investors to bring your family and friends to attend this meeting, so that we can have a larger crowd than before.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian
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Friday, November 14, 2008
Why You Need to be at Hong Lim Park Tomorrow (15 November)
Message from betsybug
It's coming to five weeks after our first rally at Hong Lim Park. In that time, much has been achieved by us all - we have come together and we are now more organised as a group, and we know better some of the true nature of this perverse product DBS has sold us. Some have gotten a form of redress from DBS; the bank has been forced to make some grudging admissions, and they have relented by holding dialogue sessions with us.
But for the vast majority of us, we are no nearer a resolution. Much has been achieved, but much more needs to be done.
We must see this contest between us and the bank as a marathon race. We must see that it is a not dash of a hundred meters, for we cannot finish a marathon if we try to sustain the speed of a sprint race. So, we must learn to live our everyday lives, do our work, spend time with our families, take care of our minds and bodies, and go on with the framing of our plans even as we tussle with DBS. However painful the loss, despair must not debilitate us, slow our pace, or weaken our resolve.
Some of you will remember the actor Gregory Peck who carried very memorably the role of Atticus Finch in "To Kill a Mockingbird". He quotes Churchill to illustrate the code that Atticus lives by: "Withhold no sacrifice; grudge no toil; seek no sordid gain; fear no foe: all will be well".
We have asked all of you to be truthful in your letters and interviews. We must not claim what has not happened and what was not said. If the bank will not do the right thing, then we must be the ones who will set the example for them. Be truthful, not fearful. Be not afraid for it is not us who have carried out a wrongful deed - it is not us who must fear.
Some of us may weary from the fight when the end is not easily seen. But the end may be around the corner, and we could have stopped just short. Can we later justify our inactions to ourselves or to our families? DBS has said they are responsible to their shareholders for compensations they make, but are our families not our shareholders, and are we not answerable to our own stakeholders?
"All will be well". If each of us just do our little share, pull our small portion of the weight, push back our part of the wall, then together, big as DBS may be, and small as each one of us is, together we can shame even such a behemoth onto a proper and correct path of action. Because, in the end, we know that we are right, and on their side, they will know they have done wrong.
We hope to see you at Hong Lim Park tomorrow.
Betsybug
Why You Need to be at Hong Lim Park Tomorrow (15 November)
Message from betsybug
It's coming to five weeks after our first rally at Hong Lim Park. In that time, much has been achieved by us all - we have come together and we are now more organised as a group, and we know better some of the true nature of this perverse product DBS has sold us. Some have gotten a form of redress from DBS; the bank has been forced to make some grudging admissions, and they have relented by holding dialogue sessions with us.
But for the vast majority of us, we are no nearer a resolution. Much has been achieved, but much more needs to be done.
We must see this contest between us and the bank as a marathon race. We must see that it is a not dash of a hundred meters, for we cannot finish a marathon if we try to sustain the speed of a sprint race. So, we must learn to live our everyday lives, do our work, spend time with our families, take care of our minds and bodies, and go on with the framing of our plans even as we tussle with DBS. However painful the loss, despair must not debilitate us, slow our pace, or weaken our resolve.
Some of you will remember the actor Gregory Peck who carried very memorably the role of Atticus Finch in "To Kill a Mockingbird". He quotes Churchill to illustrate the code that Atticus lives by: "Withhold no sacrifice; grudge no toil; seek no sordid gain; fear no foe: all will be well".
We have asked all of you to be truthful in your letters and interviews. We must not claim what has not happened and what was not said. If the bank will not do the right thing, then we must be the ones who will set the example for them. Be truthful, not fearful. Be not afraid for it is not us who have carried out a wrongful deed - it is not us who must fear.
Some of us may weary from the fight when the end is not easily seen. But the end may be around the corner, and we could have stopped just short. Can we later justify our inactions to ourselves or to our families? DBS has said they are responsible to their shareholders for compensations they make, but are our families not our shareholders, and are we not answerable to our own stakeholders?
"All will be well". If each of us just do our little share, pull our small portion of the weight, push back our part of the wall, then together, big as DBS may be, and small as each one of us is, together we can shame even such a behemoth onto a proper and correct path of action. Because, in the end, we know that we are right, and on their side, they will know they have done wrong.
We hope to see you at Hong Lim Park tomorrow.
Betsybug
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Friday, November 14, 2008
Structured products linked to Lehman Brothers
Contributed by Richard Woo
Let us recap the salient points and the parties involved, and issues/questions of relevance that appear vague and for which we need clarification and further information:
[1] Monetary Authority of Singapore [MAS]
MAS is the party at the top of the rung and it was MAS which gave approval, wittingly or unwittingly, for the sale of these toxic products to the public. And since MAS gave approval for their sale, MAS cannot now accuse the distributors for selling them.
The Prime Minister in an interview he gave to journalists on Oct 26 is reported to have said, inter alia, .. "In this case the Lehman Minibond Notes or DBS High Notes or ML Jubilee Notes were clearly not low-risk products." …
If they were not low-risk products, can they be considered as high-risk products, then, or, more appropriately, products with risks of robbing the investor of his capital, risks that were evidently sky-high and inappropriate, and absolutely incompatible with a meager return of a paltry 5% pa coupled with freezing of principal over a long period of five to six years?
MAS, it seems, can only point the finger at any distributor that has "mis-sold" or committed a legal breach. However, ten thousand investors have lost in total about half a billion dollars – and that's a lot of money; some of this money came from their retirement kitty, and for some it was their life-long savings.
In at least one product, there is clear evidence of mis-selling or making misrepresentations of the risks. If a distributor has misrepresented or lied to the investors, then there can be no justice in saying that investors did not enter with their eyes open; it would be an act of prejudice to blame investors by saying they should have invested with their eyes open; caveat emptor can in no way be introduced as a principle of fair play if one party has lied or misrepresented.
It is indeed strange that MAS has had no qualms telling investors poisoned by these toxic products: You were greedy. MAS is still investigating and exploring and that's laudable, but the comment about investors being greedy has no basis in fact and must be openly refuted or repeatedly refuted if necessary. If concerned MAS officials have a conscience, they would do well to examine it.
[2] "Vulnerable" group of investors – question for MAS/distributors
Would MAS or distributors please define the terms "vulnerable" and "non-vulnerable" and provide details of the criteria for distinguishing vulnerable from non-vulnerable?
Questions for MAS:
[a] Is it fair to leave it to each distributor to make the initial decision to compensate or not to compensate?
Would it be fairer to consider, based on availability of evidence including but not limited to, advertising materials, internal procedures, risk-profiling of individual investors, as to whether any distributor was clearly guilty of mis-selling, or misrepresenting the risks involved?
[c] Would it be rational to think that distributors would admit liability to an investor who in their opinion is not among the group classified as "vulnerable"?
[d] Would it be unreasonable to say that if a distributor had mis-sold to Ms A or B it had in all probability also mis-sold to Mr X or Y?
[e] Would it be fairer to hold any distributor fully accountable to all their investors if they have mis-sold or misrepresented?
[3] Risk-profiling or analysis
Questions for distributors:
[a] What was the point of performing a risk-analysis?
Was the risk-analysis performed in an objective manner?
[c] Would you agree that the risk-analysis was never used to determine whether an investor was suitable for the product concerned?
[d] Would you agree that you were selling a highly toxic product?
[e] Would you agree that any claim that you were merely acting as "order-executioner" cannot be meaningfully supported if you were uttering lies with abandon relative to the product, via print advert or otherwise?
[4] RMs
Can any of the RMs selling these structured products be said to be non-bilingual? To find out we need to see their CVs or ask their friends or family members. To be sure, many people in Singapore, especially the younger set, are bi-lingual.
Can it be rational to argue that an investor conversing in Mandarin, or in a vernacular other than English, with the RM is "vulnerable" but another investor discussing in English is not? But the crucial thing is: Did the RMs explain the risks of the product they were selling to the investor? Did they perform the risk-analysis diligently? Did they ask the questions concerning the risk-profile of the investor upfront, at the commencement of the discussion? Did they point out the risks spelt out in the so-called Pricing Statement?
Was a copy of the Pricing Statement handed out to the investor? Some investors have no hesitation making the claim they were not given a copy and that they did not even know what it was all about. According to some investors I spoke to, the RMs who attended to them spoke mainly about the merits of the product, for example, the interest yield, the quarterly interest payment, the link to highly rated financial institutions, the names of these institutions, and misrepresented by saying the investor would get all his/her money back if the investment were to be held to maturity.
Some investors have reviewed the risk-analysis form completed, in a hasty and careless manner, by their RM and noticed that although they were categorized as a low to mid-range risk investor, the RM did not tell them that the product was not suitable for them. I can see from the "tick-marks" completed for two investors that the information given in some areas was inconsistent or contradictory.
How many of the RMs, if any, really understood the contents of the Pricing Statement? It is obvious that people like MM are looking only at a small area of the picture. A complete analysis needs to take into account all the factors involved. Has any distributor or their RMs contravened a legal enactment, for example, the Financial Advisers Act? Any investigator seeking truth cannot avoid looking into this area. In the context of the scenario before us, would MM or MAS consider the use of the term "minibonds" as something innocuous, coincidental, or as something more than that, as part of a carefully hatched-up scheme, a scam perhaps, to fleece members of the public?
[5] Questions for Fidrec:
[a] What are your standards or criteria for making judgment on cases referred to you?
The number of Fidrec staff involved in reviewing each case?
[6] Plausible entry of new swap counterparty to replace Lehman Brothers [Minibonds].
Distributors who have advertised "invest on solid foundations" and/or "invest with peace of mind" ought to take over as the new owner of the investment, with or without the new swap counterparty arrangement. Since they have misrepresented, through print advert and, plausibly, via verbal input from their RMs, they can be seen as having mis-sold or misrepresented, hence they should not shirk from their mistakes or responsibility; they should act honorably by returning investors their principal minus what the investors have received in terms of interest payment.
[7] Statistics – Request to MAS:
For the benefit of the investing public, please publish in the newspapers statistics covering data [in table form] linking information as follows:
Type or name of structured product, Name of Distributor, Total amount invested, Total number of investors, Number of "vulnerable" investors, Number of vulnerable investors if any who have been compensated and Number of "non-vulnerable" investors if any who have been compensated
[8] Future/present
It's all very well to think about the future by talking about revamping the industry, introducing tighter control measures, overhauling sales tactics etc but there is no future when the present is not taken care of. We all need to be mindful of the present; we need to be aware of the dire situation in front of us: an "explosion" has occurred and injured people are lying everywhere. Let's take care of all the injured before planning our next move.
Richard Woo
Structured products linked to Lehman Brothers
Contributed by Richard Woo
Let us recap the salient points and the parties involved, and issues/questions of relevance that appear vague and for which we need clarification and further information:
[1] Monetary Authority of Singapore [MAS]
MAS is the party at the top of the rung and it was MAS which gave approval, wittingly or unwittingly, for the sale of these toxic products to the public. And since MAS gave approval for their sale, MAS cannot now accuse the distributors for selling them.
The Prime Minister in an interview he gave to journalists on Oct 26 is reported to have said, inter alia, .. "In this case the Lehman Minibond Notes or DBS High Notes or ML Jubilee Notes were clearly not low-risk products." …
If they were not low-risk products, can they be considered as high-risk products, then, or, more appropriately, products with risks of robbing the investor of his capital, risks that were evidently sky-high and inappropriate, and absolutely incompatible with a meager return of a paltry 5% pa coupled with freezing of principal over a long period of five to six years?
MAS, it seems, can only point the finger at any distributor that has "mis-sold" or committed a legal breach. However, ten thousand investors have lost in total about half a billion dollars – and that's a lot of money; some of this money came from their retirement kitty, and for some it was their life-long savings.
In at least one product, there is clear evidence of mis-selling or making misrepresentations of the risks. If a distributor has misrepresented or lied to the investors, then there can be no justice in saying that investors did not enter with their eyes open; it would be an act of prejudice to blame investors by saying they should have invested with their eyes open; caveat emptor can in no way be introduced as a principle of fair play if one party has lied or misrepresented.
It is indeed strange that MAS has had no qualms telling investors poisoned by these toxic products: You were greedy. MAS is still investigating and exploring and that's laudable, but the comment about investors being greedy has no basis in fact and must be openly refuted or repeatedly refuted if necessary. If concerned MAS officials have a conscience, they would do well to examine it.
[2] "Vulnerable" group of investors – question for MAS/distributors
Would MAS or distributors please define the terms "vulnerable" and "non-vulnerable" and provide details of the criteria for distinguishing vulnerable from non-vulnerable?
Questions for MAS:
[a] Is it fair to leave it to each distributor to make the initial decision to compensate or not to compensate?
Would it be fairer to consider, based on availability of evidence including but not limited to, advertising materials, internal procedures, risk-profiling of individual investors, as to whether any distributor was clearly guilty of mis-selling, or misrepresenting the risks involved?
[c] Would it be rational to think that distributors would admit liability to an investor who in their opinion is not among the group classified as "vulnerable"?
[d] Would it be unreasonable to say that if a distributor had mis-sold to Ms A or B it had in all probability also mis-sold to Mr X or Y?
[e] Would it be fairer to hold any distributor fully accountable to all their investors if they have mis-sold or misrepresented?
[3] Risk-profiling or analysis
Questions for distributors:
[a] What was the point of performing a risk-analysis?
Was the risk-analysis performed in an objective manner?
[c] Would you agree that the risk-analysis was never used to determine whether an investor was suitable for the product concerned?
[d] Would you agree that you were selling a highly toxic product?
[e] Would you agree that any claim that you were merely acting as "order-executioner" cannot be meaningfully supported if you were uttering lies with abandon relative to the product, via print advert or otherwise?
[4] RMs
Can any of the RMs selling these structured products be said to be non-bilingual? To find out we need to see their CVs or ask their friends or family members. To be sure, many people in Singapore, especially the younger set, are bi-lingual.
Can it be rational to argue that an investor conversing in Mandarin, or in a vernacular other than English, with the RM is "vulnerable" but another investor discussing in English is not? But the crucial thing is: Did the RMs explain the risks of the product they were selling to the investor? Did they perform the risk-analysis diligently? Did they ask the questions concerning the risk-profile of the investor upfront, at the commencement of the discussion? Did they point out the risks spelt out in the so-called Pricing Statement?
Was a copy of the Pricing Statement handed out to the investor? Some investors have no hesitation making the claim they were not given a copy and that they did not even know what it was all about. According to some investors I spoke to, the RMs who attended to them spoke mainly about the merits of the product, for example, the interest yield, the quarterly interest payment, the link to highly rated financial institutions, the names of these institutions, and misrepresented by saying the investor would get all his/her money back if the investment were to be held to maturity.
Some investors have reviewed the risk-analysis form completed, in a hasty and careless manner, by their RM and noticed that although they were categorized as a low to mid-range risk investor, the RM did not tell them that the product was not suitable for them. I can see from the "tick-marks" completed for two investors that the information given in some areas was inconsistent or contradictory.
How many of the RMs, if any, really understood the contents of the Pricing Statement? It is obvious that people like MM are looking only at a small area of the picture. A complete analysis needs to take into account all the factors involved. Has any distributor or their RMs contravened a legal enactment, for example, the Financial Advisers Act? Any investigator seeking truth cannot avoid looking into this area. In the context of the scenario before us, would MM or MAS consider the use of the term "minibonds" as something innocuous, coincidental, or as something more than that, as part of a carefully hatched-up scheme, a scam perhaps, to fleece members of the public?
[5] Questions for Fidrec:
[a] What are your standards or criteria for making judgment on cases referred to you?
The number of Fidrec staff involved in reviewing each case?
[6] Plausible entry of new swap counterparty to replace Lehman Brothers [Minibonds].
Distributors who have advertised "invest on solid foundations" and/or "invest with peace of mind" ought to take over as the new owner of the investment, with or without the new swap counterparty arrangement. Since they have misrepresented, through print advert and, plausibly, via verbal input from their RMs, they can be seen as having mis-sold or misrepresented, hence they should not shirk from their mistakes or responsibility; they should act honorably by returning investors their principal minus what the investors have received in terms of interest payment.
[7] Statistics – Request to MAS:
For the benefit of the investing public, please publish in the newspapers statistics covering data [in table form] linking information as follows:
Type or name of structured product, Name of Distributor, Total amount invested, Total number of investors, Number of "vulnerable" investors, Number of vulnerable investors if any who have been compensated and Number of "non-vulnerable" investors if any who have been compensated
[8] Future/present
It's all very well to think about the future by talking about revamping the industry, introducing tighter control measures, overhauling sales tactics etc but there is no future when the present is not taken care of. We all need to be mindful of the present; we need to be aware of the dire situation in front of us: an "explosion" has occurred and injured people are lying everywhere. Let's take care of all the injured before planning our next move.
Richard Woo
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,460
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- 0
Friday, November 14, 2008
Banker fill up complaint form, but did not disclose the content
Mr. Tan
I submitted a letter of complaint regarding my pinnacle notes and I was told to fill up a feedback form. As usual I ask the banker how to fill up the form the banker just told me to fill up my name and he will fill up the rest.
Honestly I do not know what is written in the form and he told me is just a routine and the bank will get in contact with me soon. He didnt bother to explain the details to me.This is the same scenenio when I signed those risks assessment forms during the sales of the structure products.
I was told that there will be an early redemption (not due to credit event of reference entities) of the pinnacle notes series 10 and the return of my investment will most likely to be zero.
I ask why and I told him I dont believe the basket of notes or secuities worth nothing. The explaination given to me was that when the notes went into liquidation, the money will first be paid to the reference entities and the remainder then to the investors.
I do not understand why should the reference entities get the money instead of the investors.The money come from the investors and the reference entities are getting the money instead.It is not logical and I do not believe anyone even a small kid will invest in this type of product if it was properly explained.
To me this type of product was meant to fail at a start as a failure will benefit the others except the investors. It was designed to cheat investors of their money!
I also had an interview with one of the FI recently and I bluntly told them do not threatened me with the risks disclosure form that I have signed. I told them the risks disclosure forms that I signed was according to the risks that was told to me by the RM and not those hidden risks that was unknown to me.
Saddened Victim.
REPLY
I suggest that you should prepare a statutory declaration to support your complaint. This is explained here:
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/10/general-advice-to-investors-of.html
Posted by Tan Kin Lian
Banker fill up complaint form, but did not disclose the content
Mr. Tan
I submitted a letter of complaint regarding my pinnacle notes and I was told to fill up a feedback form. As usual I ask the banker how to fill up the form the banker just told me to fill up my name and he will fill up the rest.
Honestly I do not know what is written in the form and he told me is just a routine and the bank will get in contact with me soon. He didnt bother to explain the details to me.This is the same scenenio when I signed those risks assessment forms during the sales of the structure products.
I was told that there will be an early redemption (not due to credit event of reference entities) of the pinnacle notes series 10 and the return of my investment will most likely to be zero.
I ask why and I told him I dont believe the basket of notes or secuities worth nothing. The explaination given to me was that when the notes went into liquidation, the money will first be paid to the reference entities and the remainder then to the investors.
I do not understand why should the reference entities get the money instead of the investors.The money come from the investors and the reference entities are getting the money instead.It is not logical and I do not believe anyone even a small kid will invest in this type of product if it was properly explained.
To me this type of product was meant to fail at a start as a failure will benefit the others except the investors. It was designed to cheat investors of their money!
I also had an interview with one of the FI recently and I bluntly told them do not threatened me with the risks disclosure form that I have signed. I told them the risks disclosure forms that I signed was according to the risks that was told to me by the RM and not those hidden risks that was unknown to me.
Saddened Victim.
REPLY
I suggest that you should prepare a statutory declaration to support your complaint. This is explained here:
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/10/general-advice-to-investors-of.html
Posted by Tan Kin Lian
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,460
- Points
- 0
17 Comments
Anonymous Anonymous said...
MAS must stop allowing product selling or pushing. There is so much evidence of mis-selling and misrepresentation caused by product pushing. Is MAS really bochap and not convinced that product selling is the cause of this evil. Do you need another debacle to be convinced?
Then wait for the insurance industry and it will be even more shocking and so much mis-selling and misrepresentation in insurance business and that will collapse the life insurance industry. There will be a run on the companies.
MAS, I urge you do something and stop product advice once and for all. I am sure the transition period of 7 years is more than enough for the FIs to move over to advisory. I am afraid agents who can't will have to be chopped. The industry has to move on for the sake of the consumers.
10:34 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
10,000 plus 700 so now 10,700. With other series to fail soon, the numbers will be up quickly.
10:34 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Allowing the banker to fill up your feedback form on your behalf is the biggest mistake anyone can make. Should try to learn some lesson from other affected by this structured product collapsed such as the High Note 5 holders, they are very well organised. If I will you, I would go down to Hong Lim Park tommorrow and listen to what other note holder have to said.
10:38 PM
Anonymous SB said...
Hi Saddened Victim,
If you have a copy of the feedback form, can you share it with us through this blog-site so that others that follow can be forewarned. Tks.
10:50 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Friday, November 14, 2008
Banker fill up complaint form, but did not disclose the content
...I submitted a letter of complaint regarding my pinnacle notes and I was told to fill up a feedback form. As usual I ask the banker how to fill up the form the banker just told me to fill up my name and he will fill up the rest.
Honestly I do not know what is written in the form and he told me is just a routine and the bank will get in contact with me soon. He didnt bother to explain the details to me.This is the same scenenio when I signed those risks assessment forms during the sales of the structure products...
...I ask why and I told him I dont believe the basket of notes or secuities worth nothing. The explaination given to me was that when the notes went into liquidation, the money will first be paid to the reference entities and the remainder then to the investors...
...I also had an interview with one of the FI recently and I bluntly told them do not threatened me with the risks disclosure form that I have signed. I told them the risks disclosure forms that I signed was according to the risks that was told to me by the RM and not those hidden risks that was unknown to me...
Saddened Victim."
Thanks for the story
BUT in front of the Court, how does one know FOR CERTAIN, if you are the Saddened Victim or that you made up the above, that THEY are the Saddened Victim
Do you have any thing in black white or hey colour video?
10:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Hey Sadden Victim, why don't you gather other investors who bought the same product as you and form a group. I am sure you can find them at Hong Lim Park tomorrow at 5pm. Unity is strength. You can also seek out other group leaders from other FIs and get some ideas to help your group.
11:05 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
when i first notice a reputable bank in Johor had attracted my dad 10 x 100K series of quities trusts and paid him close to 1000RM every month, I started to wonder. finally, 15 months later, we withdrew and move $ out from the bank. as i had told the stories...
I also observe the significant changes of personnel in few months, and the top Guns mobilise people from cities to small towns, promote them and keep turning more FD to trust investment.
that is why staggering S$9.2 bil book value was recorded in TOXIC CDOs.
I suggest a high profile team to investigate how it all started, from banks memo, emails, internal document. We must track it down....
SOme one retired in NY, the EX-CEO of DBS may know the stories... SUMMON him back to singapore....
11:06 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
make a POLICE REPORT. He may be the suspect and the introducer of TOXIC CDOs to Singapore?
How muchunder writer commission he got outside singapore?
11:07 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Unity is Strength?
the EX-CEO of DBS may know the stories... SUMMON him back to singapore....?
make a POLICE REPORT?
Listen to yourself.
You are no different from shooting in the DARK.
Is this the winning way? Have you received your REFUND notification?
11:36 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
We should get a copy for all documents that we have signed before leaving the branch.
Insist on your rights.
11:43 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Dear Pinnacle Holders, We need to urge MAS do same thing for Pinnacle as miniBond, that is REMOVE the SWAP TRANSACTIONS so that to remove the risk of anymore default from toxic CDO list. Otherwise we will see more and more Pinnacle note collapse.
We need to act fast!!!!!
11:45 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Toxic products that makes you Topsy Turvy.......even signing also can make you TIPSY .....
lessons learnt on the 3 Ts
TOXIC Product...
TOPSY TURVY reading the docs.
TIPSY when signing.
Looks like some spell in that so called TOXIC product in the first place!
If only Harry Potter could come to the rescue!
11:47 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Initially 10,000 minibonds.structured deposits plus latest 700 victims of Pinnacles 9 &10 structured deposits turned sour and what about burnt Oiloids investment silent losers?
Uk Land investors and Nigerian scams that have conned others?
happenings in 2008.....
12:00 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Please don't sign a blank form without knowing what would be written on it later on. It could be at your disadvantages, that you have approved to the written report stated to you earlier, which is not true.
12:14 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
well then why didn't you fill up the form yourself.
1:09 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I was also conned to invest all saving into pinnacle note when my fixed deposit matured last year. Nothing to worry as it is the same as fixed deposit with higher return (5.2%) except the principal has to be on hold for 5.5 years, according to Hong Leong finance. Similarly, they always claimed the PIC is not around when I go down for the branch for checking. Promise to call back also has never realised. It seems like there's only 1 person in the entire bank is responsible and aware of the details. I wonder if the FI is just playing hide-&-seek with investors!
1:27 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Reference 1:27AM
I was intrigue to read how HLF sold you Pinnacle Notes "Nothing to worry as it is the same as fixed deposit with higher return (5.2%) except the principal has to be on hold for 5.5 years"
Those were the same words used to sell PN7 to me but this is through CIMB-GK, his exact phrase "akind to FD"(sic). I have his email to prove it. No prospectus or anything given. This guy has been my broker for at least 10 years. I am now going through the process of filling out their questionaire.
6:25 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
MAS must stop allowing product selling or pushing. There is so much evidence of mis-selling and misrepresentation caused by product pushing. Is MAS really bochap and not convinced that product selling is the cause of this evil. Do you need another debacle to be convinced?
Then wait for the insurance industry and it will be even more shocking and so much mis-selling and misrepresentation in insurance business and that will collapse the life insurance industry. There will be a run on the companies.
MAS, I urge you do something and stop product advice once and for all. I am sure the transition period of 7 years is more than enough for the FIs to move over to advisory. I am afraid agents who can't will have to be chopped. The industry has to move on for the sake of the consumers.
10:34 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
10,000 plus 700 so now 10,700. With other series to fail soon, the numbers will be up quickly.
10:34 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Allowing the banker to fill up your feedback form on your behalf is the biggest mistake anyone can make. Should try to learn some lesson from other affected by this structured product collapsed such as the High Note 5 holders, they are very well organised. If I will you, I would go down to Hong Lim Park tommorrow and listen to what other note holder have to said.
10:38 PM
Anonymous SB said...
Hi Saddened Victim,
If you have a copy of the feedback form, can you share it with us through this blog-site so that others that follow can be forewarned. Tks.
10:50 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Friday, November 14, 2008
Banker fill up complaint form, but did not disclose the content
...I submitted a letter of complaint regarding my pinnacle notes and I was told to fill up a feedback form. As usual I ask the banker how to fill up the form the banker just told me to fill up my name and he will fill up the rest.
Honestly I do not know what is written in the form and he told me is just a routine and the bank will get in contact with me soon. He didnt bother to explain the details to me.This is the same scenenio when I signed those risks assessment forms during the sales of the structure products...
...I ask why and I told him I dont believe the basket of notes or secuities worth nothing. The explaination given to me was that when the notes went into liquidation, the money will first be paid to the reference entities and the remainder then to the investors...
...I also had an interview with one of the FI recently and I bluntly told them do not threatened me with the risks disclosure form that I have signed. I told them the risks disclosure forms that I signed was according to the risks that was told to me by the RM and not those hidden risks that was unknown to me...
Saddened Victim."
Thanks for the story
BUT in front of the Court, how does one know FOR CERTAIN, if you are the Saddened Victim or that you made up the above, that THEY are the Saddened Victim
Do you have any thing in black white or hey colour video?
10:56 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Hey Sadden Victim, why don't you gather other investors who bought the same product as you and form a group. I am sure you can find them at Hong Lim Park tomorrow at 5pm. Unity is strength. You can also seek out other group leaders from other FIs and get some ideas to help your group.
11:05 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
when i first notice a reputable bank in Johor had attracted my dad 10 x 100K series of quities trusts and paid him close to 1000RM every month, I started to wonder. finally, 15 months later, we withdrew and move $ out from the bank. as i had told the stories...
I also observe the significant changes of personnel in few months, and the top Guns mobilise people from cities to small towns, promote them and keep turning more FD to trust investment.
that is why staggering S$9.2 bil book value was recorded in TOXIC CDOs.
I suggest a high profile team to investigate how it all started, from banks memo, emails, internal document. We must track it down....
SOme one retired in NY, the EX-CEO of DBS may know the stories... SUMMON him back to singapore....
11:06 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
make a POLICE REPORT. He may be the suspect and the introducer of TOXIC CDOs to Singapore?
How muchunder writer commission he got outside singapore?
11:07 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Unity is Strength?
the EX-CEO of DBS may know the stories... SUMMON him back to singapore....?
make a POLICE REPORT?
Listen to yourself.
You are no different from shooting in the DARK.
Is this the winning way? Have you received your REFUND notification?
11:36 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
We should get a copy for all documents that we have signed before leaving the branch.
Insist on your rights.
11:43 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Dear Pinnacle Holders, We need to urge MAS do same thing for Pinnacle as miniBond, that is REMOVE the SWAP TRANSACTIONS so that to remove the risk of anymore default from toxic CDO list. Otherwise we will see more and more Pinnacle note collapse.
We need to act fast!!!!!
11:45 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Toxic products that makes you Topsy Turvy.......even signing also can make you TIPSY .....
lessons learnt on the 3 Ts
TOXIC Product...
TOPSY TURVY reading the docs.
TIPSY when signing.
Looks like some spell in that so called TOXIC product in the first place!
If only Harry Potter could come to the rescue!
11:47 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Initially 10,000 minibonds.structured deposits plus latest 700 victims of Pinnacles 9 &10 structured deposits turned sour and what about burnt Oiloids investment silent losers?
Uk Land investors and Nigerian scams that have conned others?
happenings in 2008.....
12:00 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Please don't sign a blank form without knowing what would be written on it later on. It could be at your disadvantages, that you have approved to the written report stated to you earlier, which is not true.
12:14 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
well then why didn't you fill up the form yourself.
1:09 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I was also conned to invest all saving into pinnacle note when my fixed deposit matured last year. Nothing to worry as it is the same as fixed deposit with higher return (5.2%) except the principal has to be on hold for 5.5 years, according to Hong Leong finance. Similarly, they always claimed the PIC is not around when I go down for the branch for checking. Promise to call back also has never realised. It seems like there's only 1 person in the entire bank is responsible and aware of the details. I wonder if the FI is just playing hide-&-seek with investors!
1:27 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Reference 1:27AM
I was intrigue to read how HLF sold you Pinnacle Notes "Nothing to worry as it is the same as fixed deposit with higher return (5.2%) except the principal has to be on hold for 5.5 years"
Those were the same words used to sell PN7 to me but this is through CIMB-GK, his exact phrase "akind to FD"(sic). I have his email to prove it. No prospectus or anything given. This guy has been my broker for at least 10 years. I am now going through the process of filling out their questionaire.
6:25 AM
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
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- 1,460
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
There are still regulations in Singapore
I brought my small dog to Yio Chu Kang stadium. After two rounds the track, the attendant called to me. He said that "dogs are not allowed". It is posted in the regulation of the stadium. I checked and found "Animals, birds or reptiles are not allowed".
It is an irony. MAS registered more than 50 series of credit linked notes that are approved for sale to the public who are expected to invest "with their eyes open". It seems that dogs are not allowed in the stadium, but credit linked notes, with "first to default" swaps and 100 or more toxic CDOs are approved - even if you can lose a lifetime of savings.
There are still regulations in Singapore
I brought my small dog to Yio Chu Kang stadium. After two rounds the track, the attendant called to me. He said that "dogs are not allowed". It is posted in the regulation of the stadium. I checked and found "Animals, birds or reptiles are not allowed".
It is an irony. MAS registered more than 50 series of credit linked notes that are approved for sale to the public who are expected to invest "with their eyes open". It seems that dogs are not allowed in the stadium, but credit linked notes, with "first to default" swaps and 100 or more toxic CDOs are approved - even if you can lose a lifetime of savings.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,460
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- 0
Sunday, November 16, 2008
Write directly to MAS and your MP
Dear Mr. Tan,
I am writing with a great deal of embarrassment. My husband and I are far from being uneducated. In fact, there are two phDs between us but that goes to show that stupidity doesn't discriminate against people with education. We sank $100 000 - half of it was with pinnacles 8.
I have the following questions:
(details deleted)
What we want to say is that there is definitely a history of misrepresentation in this case. However, we are also embarrassed by the fact that we were so gullible and trusting. In the news, much is made of the plight of retirees who couldn't have known better. However, the honest truth is - it is a very complex product and if we (someone like us) could not understand it, I suspect, many people will walk into this blindly.
My point - the law usually wouldn't allow anyone to sell lousy goods in bad faith. However, when it comes to banks - they can legitimately take millions off simple folks like us and walk away. This is what I find incomprehensible. Is MAS an innocent bystander?
Finally, I just want to thank your website for helping me understand the issues even though I feel more of a fool after reading what others are saying. What I want to say is that don't assume education is going to protect you from such blunders. (details deleted)
I hope this reaches your personal email account and not your blog. If for some reason it goes to your blog, I would be grateful if you could remove it.
REPLY
I advise you to write directly to the MAS and to your member of Parliament. I have a few hundred people writing to me on similar experiences. I do not have the power to do anything, except to post into my blog, speak at Hong Lim Park, and organise Petitions (which are ignored by MAS).
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 9:09 AM
Write directly to MAS and your MP
Dear Mr. Tan,
I am writing with a great deal of embarrassment. My husband and I are far from being uneducated. In fact, there are two phDs between us but that goes to show that stupidity doesn't discriminate against people with education. We sank $100 000 - half of it was with pinnacles 8.
I have the following questions:
(details deleted)
What we want to say is that there is definitely a history of misrepresentation in this case. However, we are also embarrassed by the fact that we were so gullible and trusting. In the news, much is made of the plight of retirees who couldn't have known better. However, the honest truth is - it is a very complex product and if we (someone like us) could not understand it, I suspect, many people will walk into this blindly.
My point - the law usually wouldn't allow anyone to sell lousy goods in bad faith. However, when it comes to banks - they can legitimately take millions off simple folks like us and walk away. This is what I find incomprehensible. Is MAS an innocent bystander?
Finally, I just want to thank your website for helping me understand the issues even though I feel more of a fool after reading what others are saying. What I want to say is that don't assume education is going to protect you from such blunders. (details deleted)
I hope this reaches your personal email account and not your blog. If for some reason it goes to your blog, I would be grateful if you could remove it.
REPLY
I advise you to write directly to the MAS and to your member of Parliament. I have a few hundred people writing to me on similar experiences. I do not have the power to do anything, except to post into my blog, speak at Hong Lim Park, and organise Petitions (which are ignored by MAS).
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 9:09 AM
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Lesson from President-elect Obama
Extracted from bloomberg.com
Obama said he has assigned someone on his presidential transition team who interacts with Paulson (treasury secretary of Bush administration) daily.
"We are getting the information that's required, and we're making suggestions in some circumstances about how we think they might approach some of these problems,'' Obama said. Obama also said the government must do more to help distressed homeowners.
"We have not focused on foreclosures and what's happening to homeowners as much as I would like,'' Obama said, according to the excerpts. He called for setting up ``a negotiation between banks and borrowers so that people can stay in their homes.''
Translate into Singapore situation
The government and MAS must do more to help distressed investors of the credit linked notes.
They have not focused on helping the investors as much as is possible. There should be a negotiation between banks and investors so that fair compensation can be given to the investors for their losses.
Lesson from President-elect Obama
Extracted from bloomberg.com
Obama said he has assigned someone on his presidential transition team who interacts with Paulson (treasury secretary of Bush administration) daily.
"We are getting the information that's required, and we're making suggestions in some circumstances about how we think they might approach some of these problems,'' Obama said. Obama also said the government must do more to help distressed homeowners.
"We have not focused on foreclosures and what's happening to homeowners as much as I would like,'' Obama said, according to the excerpts. He called for setting up ``a negotiation between banks and borrowers so that people can stay in their homes.''
Translate into Singapore situation
The government and MAS must do more to help distressed investors of the credit linked notes.
They have not focused on helping the investors as much as is possible. There should be a negotiation between banks and investors so that fair compensation can be given to the investors for their losses.
- Joined
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Lesson from China: Hu Jintao
Chinese President Hu Jintao said China can help alleviate the impact of the financial crisis and slowing global growth by stoking its own economy.
Steady and relatively fast growth in China is in itself an important contribution to international financial stability and world economic growth.
China announced a $586 billion economic stimulus, focused on building low-rent housing, roads, railways and airports. The package also allows tax deductions for fixed assets such as machinery to stimulate investment. Farmers will also benefit from more subsidies.
China has taken an active part in the international cooperation to deal with the financial crisis and played a positive role in maintaining international financial stability and promoting the development of the world economy. Hu suggested that rich countries must take the lead in addressing the crisis.
Developed nations “should undertake their due responsibilities and obligations” by stabilizing their economies, restoring growth and taking steps to “safeguard investors’ interests”.
Lesson from China: Hu Jintao
Chinese President Hu Jintao said China can help alleviate the impact of the financial crisis and slowing global growth by stoking its own economy.
Steady and relatively fast growth in China is in itself an important contribution to international financial stability and world economic growth.
China announced a $586 billion economic stimulus, focused on building low-rent housing, roads, railways and airports. The package also allows tax deductions for fixed assets such as machinery to stimulate investment. Farmers will also benefit from more subsidies.
China has taken an active part in the international cooperation to deal with the financial crisis and played a positive role in maintaining international financial stability and promoting the development of the world economy. Hu suggested that rich countries must take the lead in addressing the crisis.
Developed nations “should undertake their due responsibilities and obligations” by stabilizing their economies, restoring growth and taking steps to “safeguard investors’ interests”.
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Invitation to investors who bought from UOB Kay Hian
We would like to invite investors who invested structured products (Pinnacle Notes, Minibonds, Jubilee, etc) through UOB Kay Hian to join our contact group. Many of us have a frustrating experience with UOB Kay Hian individually and we believe we can engage UOB Kay Hian more effectively as a group.
Please send us an email at [email protected], indicating your full name, email and phone contacts and type of products bought. Thank you.
Regards,
UOB Kay Hian Investors Group
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:17 AM
Invitation to investors who bought from UOB Kay Hian
We would like to invite investors who invested structured products (Pinnacle Notes, Minibonds, Jubilee, etc) through UOB Kay Hian to join our contact group. Many of us have a frustrating experience with UOB Kay Hian individually and we believe we can engage UOB Kay Hian more effectively as a group.
Please send us an email at [email protected], indicating your full name, email and phone contacts and type of products bought. Thank you.
Regards,
UOB Kay Hian Investors Group
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:17 AM
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The Neediest Cases
Wall Street Does Its Share to Help Fellow New Yorkers
By KARI HASKELL
Published: February 2, 2008
Several analysts from Goldman Sachs and Citigroup delivered an envelope full of cash, checks and change this week to the offices of The New York Times Company Foundation.
The Neediest Cases Fund
This is the 96th Neediest Cases fund-raising campaign.
Neediest Cases Fund-Raising Totals (February 2, 2008)
The money represented a fund-raising effort by analysts from these banks. Their contributions and online donations, including those from seven other investment banks made through nycharities.com, totaled $189,260 on Monday.
This was almost 12 percent lower than last year’s total, but the portion from Goldman Sachs was 36 percent higher.
Jack Rosenthal, the president of the New York Times Company Foundation, which administers the Neediest Cases Fund, welcomed the analysts and thanked them for their continued support of the Neediest Cases campaign.
How did they do it?
“Our success was our structure,” said Mr. Galligan of Goldman Sachs, which raised far more than the other banks put together: a little more than three-fourths of the total.
He explained that one to three first-year analysts were appointed as fund-raisers in each of 15 divisions. These representatives announced the start of the fund-raising drive in September by e-mail, then followed up by approaching everyone in each department in person. In many instances, the people they sought contributions from had themselves taken part in the Neediest Cases Fund drive in previous years.
Mr. Mejia said, “It has become a tradition within our firm to participate in an effort to help New York’s sick, poor and disabled, particularly during the holiday season.”
Ms. Barrett said, “It became a competition between departments to raise the most money.” Mr. Mejia added that people throughout the firm were happy to contribute to a fund that focuses on charities that benefit the community.
Gloria T. Avitabile
Wall Street Does Its Share to Help Fellow New Yorkers
By KARI HASKELL
Published: February 2, 2008
Several analysts from Goldman Sachs and Citigroup delivered an envelope full of cash, checks and change this week to the offices of The New York Times Company Foundation.
The Neediest Cases Fund
This is the 96th Neediest Cases fund-raising campaign.
Neediest Cases Fund-Raising Totals (February 2, 2008)
The money represented a fund-raising effort by analysts from these banks. Their contributions and online donations, including those from seven other investment banks made through nycharities.com, totaled $189,260 on Monday.
This was almost 12 percent lower than last year’s total, but the portion from Goldman Sachs was 36 percent higher.
Jack Rosenthal, the president of the New York Times Company Foundation, which administers the Neediest Cases Fund, welcomed the analysts and thanked them for their continued support of the Neediest Cases campaign.
How did they do it?
“Our success was our structure,” said Mr. Galligan of Goldman Sachs, which raised far more than the other banks put together: a little more than three-fourths of the total.
He explained that one to three first-year analysts were appointed as fund-raisers in each of 15 divisions. These representatives announced the start of the fund-raising drive in September by e-mail, then followed up by approaching everyone in each department in person. In many instances, the people they sought contributions from had themselves taken part in the Neediest Cases Fund drive in previous years.
Mr. Mejia said, “It has become a tradition within our firm to participate in an effort to help New York’s sick, poor and disabled, particularly during the holiday season.”
Ms. Barrett said, “It became a competition between departments to raise the most money.” Mr. Mejia added that people throughout the firm were happy to contribute to a fund that focuses on charities that benefit the community.
Gloria T. Avitabile
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Neediest Cases
Hi Friends
The below article inspired me to start something for the neediest cases. As Singapore grapples with retrenchment and job losses like never before, many will go without an income affecting the children and family members at home. Some may even have exhausted all avenues and think of suicide as the only way out as the economic crisis looms over our country.
Do let me know if you feel inspired to contribute and help. We can work out the details later. There is hope if the able can do something together to help one another.
Regds
Gilbert Goh
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Ask for your risk analysis form
Here is a tip.
Write to the financial institution to ask for a copy of the risk analysis form that you signed at the time that you bought the credit linked notes.
Check if the answers in the form are based on what you told the sales representative. If the answers are not taken from you, you can write a letter immediately to point out any wrong facts.
A few investors have asked for and received the signed form. They found statements written by the sales representative (of the distributor) without their permission. If the wrong facts are entered with fraudalent intent, you can lodge a police report.
You can consult a knowledgeable fellow investor about the implications of the facts contained in the risk analysis form.
Views posted by an investor
To: All Investors,
Please ask your FI for a copy of ALL documents that you signed, preferabky BEFORE going for the interview. There have been some cases where the FI's copy of the risk profile form contain additions and/or modifications that were not reflected in the investor's copy. This is highly irregular.
During application time, the RM typically asked some random questions which were ticked on the form. The investor then signed the form, and the RM gave investor his copy on the spot. Later on, the RM filled up the balance of the form with info in his favour. This additional info was not made known to investor upon signup.The investor has unknowingly signed a "blank check".
The RM should get the agreement of the investor for any additional notes he plans to add, but he did not.From a legal standpoint, can one argue that the risk analysis form is invalid, and hence the entire purchase agreement in null and void?
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:03 PM
1 comments:
Anonymous said...
MAS should look into this anomaly and charge the RMs for falsification.
This is also a fond practice with insurance agents. Supervisors who vetted and approved the forms must also bear the responsibility and liable for the falsification.
This shows MAS's trust of the FIs has been betrayed.
Really what is MAS doing no one knows.
Ask for your risk analysis form
Here is a tip.
Write to the financial institution to ask for a copy of the risk analysis form that you signed at the time that you bought the credit linked notes.
Check if the answers in the form are based on what you told the sales representative. If the answers are not taken from you, you can write a letter immediately to point out any wrong facts.
A few investors have asked for and received the signed form. They found statements written by the sales representative (of the distributor) without their permission. If the wrong facts are entered with fraudalent intent, you can lodge a police report.
You can consult a knowledgeable fellow investor about the implications of the facts contained in the risk analysis form.
Views posted by an investor
To: All Investors,
Please ask your FI for a copy of ALL documents that you signed, preferabky BEFORE going for the interview. There have been some cases where the FI's copy of the risk profile form contain additions and/or modifications that were not reflected in the investor's copy. This is highly irregular.
During application time, the RM typically asked some random questions which were ticked on the form. The investor then signed the form, and the RM gave investor his copy on the spot. Later on, the RM filled up the balance of the form with info in his favour. This additional info was not made known to investor upon signup.The investor has unknowingly signed a "blank check".
The RM should get the agreement of the investor for any additional notes he plans to add, but he did not.From a legal standpoint, can one argue that the risk analysis form is invalid, and hence the entire purchase agreement in null and void?
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:03 PM
1 comments:
Anonymous said...
MAS should look into this anomaly and charge the RMs for falsification.
This is also a fond practice with insurance agents. Supervisors who vetted and approved the forms must also bear the responsibility and liable for the falsification.
This shows MAS's trust of the FIs has been betrayed.
Really what is MAS doing no one knows.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Check the weekly prices of your credit linked notes
Here is a tip.
Ask you distributor to show you the website that you can check the weekly prices of the credit linked notes that you have bought.
If you find that the notes have dropped in value, you should ask for an explanation from the distributor or the product issuer.
You can make your request verbally. If you do not get a satisfactory answer, you can send your request in writing. If it is still not answered, you can lodge a complaint with MAS.
It is the duty of the distributor to advice you on how you can get this important piece of information. As the value of many series of notes are dropping seriously, you should monitor these values regularly.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:14 PM
Check the weekly prices of your credit linked notes
Here is a tip.
Ask you distributor to show you the website that you can check the weekly prices of the credit linked notes that you have bought.
If you find that the notes have dropped in value, you should ask for an explanation from the distributor or the product issuer.
You can make your request verbally. If you do not get a satisfactory answer, you can send your request in writing. If it is still not answered, you can lodge a complaint with MAS.
It is the duty of the distributor to advice you on how you can get this important piece of information. As the value of many series of notes are dropping seriously, you should monitor these values regularly.
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:14 PM
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
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Sunday, November 16, 2008
Pinnacle Notes value as at 14 Nov 2008
Bid Side Valuation (including Accrued Interest) based on Morgan Stanley’s discretion
as 14 Nov 2008:
Pinnacle Series 9 0%
Pinnacle Series 10 0%
USD SGD
Pinnacle Series 1 1.83% 1.47%
Pinnacle Series 2 3.79% 3.26%
Pinnacle Series 3 10.32% 10.03%
Pinnacle Series 5 8.61% 8.35%
Pinnacle Series 6 2.95% 1.26%
Pinnacle Series 7 1.67% 1.48%
The above notes lost more than 89% of value
USD SGD
Pinnacle Series 8 69.50% 66.28%
Pinnacle Series 12 79.97% 80.28%
Pinnacle Series 15 84.87%
Pinnacle Series 16 82.15%
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:18 PM
Pinnacle Notes value as at 14 Nov 2008
Bid Side Valuation (including Accrued Interest) based on Morgan Stanley’s discretion
as 14 Nov 2008:
Pinnacle Series 9 0%
Pinnacle Series 10 0%
USD SGD
Pinnacle Series 1 1.83% 1.47%
Pinnacle Series 2 3.79% 3.26%
Pinnacle Series 3 10.32% 10.03%
Pinnacle Series 5 8.61% 8.35%
Pinnacle Series 6 2.95% 1.26%
Pinnacle Series 7 1.67% 1.48%
The above notes lost more than 89% of value
USD SGD
Pinnacle Series 8 69.50% 66.28%
Pinnacle Series 12 79.97% 80.28%
Pinnacle Series 15 84.87%
Pinnacle Series 16 82.15%
Posted by Tan Kin Lian at 11:18 PM
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