Lee Kuan Yew - 2 parties system? I'll be sorry for Singapore

[Char_Azn]

===
err...bro, what make u say Taiwan has stagnanted? Is Taiwan sliding backwards to third-world country already? As far as i know, Taiwan is the leading manufacturer for LEDs, HTC / Acer are doing very well. Taiwan benefited from a strong entrepreneur spirit. Yes, historically the government was involved in setting the industry and invested in semi conductor industries but pretty much left things to run after that.

S Korea, too has a government led industry at first - chaebols...Hyundai and Samsung used to the megaweights. But to say they have stagnant is also not correct.

A few successful heavyweight isn't a very good indication of how well the country is doing. A country like Korea have a big enough domestic market that they can depend on their own market if export fails. SG can go jiak sai if our companies fail overseas. Korea also have a ridiculously protected market. e.g. the Blackberry was not allowed into Korea until 2-3 years ago to protect the domestic market. They had a "chiong" local version of the blackberry by a local manufacturer. SG cannot afford to do that coz our domestic market is too bloody small. Most manufacturer will close down before they even make a profit. And if few successful heavyweight is indication of how well the country is doing then US and EU wouldn't be in so much dip shit today.

Also to understand you need to actually be in Taiwan and talk to the pple there. Reading about it from a few thousand miles away is nothing like talking to someone there. I spoke to some of my colleagues from Kaohsiung, a DPP stronghold and all of them were saying the same thing just before KMT took over, that Ma was their last hope and that Taiwan cannot afford to go backwards. There is good reasons why they kicked out Ah Bian's pro democratic DPP.

They wanted to get rid of them so much that they handed all levels of government back to KMT effectively making it a 1 party system again. And they were lucky they changed back to KMT just in time for the Global economy crisis. Whether Taiwan likes it or not, they are a lot like HK who are increasingly dependent on China. Even when they were about to fail, Big Bro PRC came to their rescue. China literally sent shopping teams into Taiwan to buy them out of a recession once the KMT allowed them. They did the same with HK during both the SARS and the more recent economy crisis.

I am not advocating a totally hands off approach by the government, that is not possible. The government still needs to build infrastructure and stuff - they need to set the overtone for economic policies eg: tax policies to entice industries to come etc. This must be the basic duty of all governments - be it China or USA.

When you say 99.9% of Sinkies blame the government for any tom dick and harry stuff - one classic example is the Sungei Rd saga, where the ah peks all kow peh to the gahmen to settle the dispute regarding stall allocation. Why is this happening? Bcos MOE restrict the area of operations for these stallowners. Would you have this problem in Taiwan for example? No, simply because the ah peks will set up their stall along the main road elsewhere. So, if the gahmen have already intervened, then its obvious that the people went back to the gahmen.

Of course, Sinkies r wrong to blame everything the gahmen, but thats not the argument against two party rule. There is no right or wrong time frame...this is not raising GST where you do it in phases. How to prepare for 2 party rule? PAP purposely field a team of idiots in the next election? No, PAP isn't going to do that. Why would PAP on its own dig their grave in doing so? The people will learn to adapt and decide through ballots. What PAP is saying today, is if you vote for another party, you will definitely regret. But who r they to judge & declare that? What makes them so sure? Becos they had done so for the past 50 years? But surely we know, past success do not represent future glory - see case of Nokia.

No try no gain, no fuck no son.

The whole PAP getting involved in every freaking thing is precisely why I said we are not ready. We have learned to depend on them to do just about everything for us. Having a government that is spending more time bickering with one another as oppose to what they are doing now, their job, is going to impact us a lot more then it impacts the Taiwanese because we are so used to the government doing everything for us.

If the system is changed gradually, more opposition getting into parliament over a longer period of time. We have 5 years in between all that to try to adjust and by the time a 2nd party is strong enough to effectively challenge PAP, we would already have reach the point where change or not, it makes no difference to us.

If you change the system too fast, we cannot adjust and we suffered through a few years. Guess what happens? Everyone will vote PAP back into power and good luck trying to get rid of them a 2nd time.

 

[dankos]

If U want to compare a 1 party system or democracy, 2 of the best examples will be China and India.


SG is more towards the China model with less repression, retaining a basic form of Democracy but no where near those in the West.

fat ass,

u only quoted 2 countries. so it is not a good indication of you dumbfuck theory. u say it yourself, a few success story here n there not counted.

fuck u fat ass :oIo::oIo:

 

[streetsmart73]

Let him talk all he wants... the public reaction is no longer the same to his "hard truths" anymore. His comments over the weekend has pissed off even the pro establishment people.. and the ah tiong faggot blogger's timing was perfect!

hi there


1. broken record just cannot swallow the bitter pill mah!
2. now, the hard truth & color of the leader of the flock.
3. everything anything outside its parameters are to be ignored as noise.
4. 60% screwed big time.
5. what sorry, crying, change, wayang, listening - a load of crap!

 

[streetsmart73]

That's the trouble with dictators. If he strives to be a benevolent one, the state progresses. But look at North korea, or Libya. Look at Tito. Once he dies, the system is too weak to throw up robust successors. Democracy is social Darwinism and allows constant tension to evolve the best leaders. When dictators die, the country implodes; democracies never die, they go forward slower but surer. And the system ensures strong institutions.

hi there


1. aiyoh!
2. any sheep is just sheep mah.
3. except for specially selected or trained sheep.
4. then such specimen shall be acceptable as elite sheep into its inner circle.
5. other than that, all others are dispensable!

 

[streetsmart73]

wen ur ah boy-boy is njoying his astronomical salary n suka-suka lavishing himself wif 8 mth bonuses ... u tink u gonna let sum1 else share dat pie wif him? ...

hi there


1. broken record moonlighting as some fortune teller again or what.
2. who can tell the future?
3. who knows!
4. probably, pinketon will go before broken record.

 

[krafty]

if there is no 2 party, his own pap cronies will be corrupted. look at ho kum hean, a pap crony, is a very good example of how power is being abused. there must be alternative party to keep tab on his party. i just contacted my friend lawyer, we will be going to the police station, just wait and see how pap going to cover him.

 

[red amoeba]

A few successful heavyweight isn't a very good indication of how well the country is doing. A country like Korea have a big enough domestic market that they can depend on their own market if export fails. SG can go jiak sai if our companies fail overseas. Korea also have a ridiculously protected market. e.g. the Blackberry was not allowed into Korea until 2-3 years ago to protect the domestic market. They had a "chiong" local version of the blackberry by a local manufacturer. SG cannot afford to do that coz our domestic market is too bloody small. Most manufacturer will close down before they even make a profit. And if few successful heavyweight is indication of how well the country is doing then US and EU wouldn't be in so much dip shit today.

Also to understand you need to actually be in Taiwan and talk to the pple there. Reading about it from a few thousand miles away is nothing like talking to someone there. I spoke to some of my colleagues from Kaohsiung, a DPP stronghold and all of them were saying the same thing just before KMT took over, that Ma was their last hope and that Taiwan cannot afford to go backwards. There is good reasons why they kicked out Ah Bian's pro democratic DPP.

They wanted to get rid of them so much that they handed all levels of government back to KMT effectively making it a 1 party system again. And they were lucky they changed back to KMT just in time for the Global economy crisis. Whether Taiwan likes it or not, they are a lot like HK who are increasingly dependent on China. Even when they were about to fail, Big Bro PRC came to their rescue. China literally sent shopping teams into Taiwan to buy them out of a recession once the KMT allowed them. They did the same with HK during both the SARS and the more recent economy crisis.



The whole PAP getting involved in every freaking thing is precisely why I said we are not ready. We have learned to depend on them to do just about everything for us. Having a government that is spending more time bickering with one another as oppose to what they are doing now, their job, is going to impact us a lot more then it impacts the Taiwanese because we are so used to the government doing everything for us.

If the system is changed gradually, more opposition getting into parliament over a longer period of time. We have 5 years in between all that to try to adjust and by the time a 2nd party is strong enough to effectively challenge PAP, we would already have reach the point where change or not, it makes no difference to us.

If you change the system too fast, we cannot adjust and we suffered through a few years. Guess what happens? Everyone will vote PAP back into power and good luck trying to get rid of them a 2nd time.

===

PAP or our government is not likely to relinquish their influence on businesses or GLCs anytime soon. Not in 5 not in 10 not in 20 or 50...change has to be effected not waited. On this subject, I believe there is no such thing called ready or not ready. Your theory is akin to: he is staying in your house thats why you are not ready to tear it down. But instead of waiting for him to move out, why dun you tear it down anyway, you hve the right to do so.

Already, we are learning to cope with one opposition held GRC. If 5 years down the road, Aljunied is fucked or the residents feel that WP is doing a shitty job, automatically, they will vote out WP. While for some policies you can learn to slowly adapt, for this you cannot. So what if we change the system and we suffered? If you have this fear, its precisely what PAP wants to feel - that if you not vote for them, you will suffer / be sorry.

My question is, why r we pessimistic? if LKY hesitated to declare independence in 1965, will we be what we are today? We did have fears when we were booted out of Malaysia but LKY went ahead to declare independence. A 2 party system do not mean we will descend into chaos, tomorrow, our Leopard tanks will be guarding every traffic junction....

 

[red amoeba]

A few successful heavyweight isn't a very good indication of how well the country is doing. A country like Korea have a big enough domestic market that they can depend on their own market if export fails. SG can go jiak sai if our companies fail overseas. Korea also have a ridiculously protected market. e.g. the Blackberry was not allowed into Korea until 2-3 years ago to protect the domestic market. They had a "chiong" local version of the blackberry by a local manufacturer. SG cannot afford to do that coz our domestic market is too bloody small. Most manufacturer will close down before they even make a profit. And if few successful heavyweight is indication of how well the country is doing then US and EU wouldn't be in so much dip shit today.

Also to understand you need to actually be in Taiwan and talk to the pple there. Reading about it from a few thousand miles away is nothing like talking to someone there. I spoke to some of my colleagues from Kaohsiung, a DPP stronghold and all of them were saying the same thing just before KMT took over, that Ma was their last hope and that Taiwan cannot afford to go backwards. There is good reasons why they kicked out Ah Bian's pro democratic DPP.

They wanted to get rid of them so much that they handed all levels of government back to KMT effectively making it a 1 party system again. And they were lucky they changed back to KMT just in time for the Global economy crisis. Whether Taiwan likes it or not, they are a lot like HK who are increasingly dependent on China. Even when they were about to fail, Big Bro PRC came to their rescue. China literally sent shopping teams into Taiwan to buy them out of a recession once the KMT allowed them. They did the same with HK during both the SARS and the more recent economy crisis.

==

sorry i am missing your point here. Yes, a fair bit of Southern Taiwanese are actually bewildered regarding the fanatic worshipping of ah bian. You see, precisely they see that DPP is fucked up, thats why they pass their vote to KMT. And precisely they feel KMT was fucked up, they voted DPP 10 years ago.

You see the positive from this - after Ah Bian, DPP underwent a change, now their leader - Cai Yingwen was seen as a worthy opponent to Ma. And in 2012 presidential election, she will give Ma a run for his money. And notice, Cai distanced herself from Ah Bian.

Now, imagine, there was one party - KMT who ruled since 1949...they could basically what they liked (like what they did 10 years ago). corruption, ruling with iron fist, etc. Ditto for Japan, who has been ruled by single party for long time.

Politics -is basically convincing your voters you are the best. either by sweet talking during elections or really serving them after being elected. Back to my point - if PAP is doing a good job, why are they scared of having a 2 party system- because they will win each elections. If they wanna convince voters to vote for them, they jolly well serve the voters and convince the voters that each policy is good. And the voters decide.

Why must they come out to say outright - 2 party bad, 1 party good? instead of telling us this, why don't they go ask - how can we convince voters that they should vote for us. By telling them scary stories and painting a bleak future? Come on, we are not kids ok.

 

[Char_Azn]

==

sorry i am missing your point here. Yes, a fair bit of Southern Taiwanese are actually bewildered regarding the fanatic worshipping of ah bian. You see, precisely they see that DPP is fucked up, thats why they pass their vote to KMT. And precisely they feel KMT was fucked up, they voted DPP 10 years ago.

You see the positive from this - after Ah Bian, DPP underwent a change, now their leader - Cai Yingwen was seen as a worthy opponent to Ma. And in 2012 presidential election, she will give Ma a run for his money. And notice, Cai distanced herself from Ah Bian.

Now, imagine, there was one party - KMT who ruled since 1949...they could basically what they liked (like what they did 10 years ago). corruption, ruling with iron fist, etc. Ditto for Japan, who has been ruled by single party for long time.

Politics -is basically convincing your voters you are the best. either by sweet talking during elections or really serving them after being elected. Back to my point - if PAP is doing a good job, why are they scared of having a 2 party system- because they will win each elections. If they wanna convince voters to vote for them, they jolly well serve the voters and convince the voters that each policy is good. And the voters decide.

Why must they come out to say outright - 2 party bad, 1 party good? instead of telling us this, why don't they go ask - how can we convince voters that they should vote for us. By telling them scary stories and painting a bleak future? Come on, we are not kids ok.

Since you brought out Japan, Japan just change from the party that ruled them for the last gazillion years and just change it to the other guy. They've been changing Prime Ministers like no tomorrow ever since

As for why the Old Man needs to come out and say it's not good. Hey he's a politician, he wants to keep his party in power obviously he's going to tell U it's no good.

The same could be said of Worker's Party telling U 2 party system is good coz they were using this slogan to get elected. WP spent 90% of the campaign scolding PAP and telling you why a 2 party system is good(or in their words a 1st world government).

Compared to the other parties like *I really hate to say this* SDP who actually came out with proposal(really stupid ones but still they are showing something) WP just kept telling pple more opposition = good. I've listen to most of their rallies which can be summarize as so: 5% telling everyone vote is secret, 90% scolding PAP, 5% telling you more opposition is good. Can they guarantee a 2 party system work? Nope. It's their election strategy, they just stuck to it.

I don't see any difference between what LKY is saying now and what WP was doing during the election. At the end of the day it's the voters who choose. The problem as I see now is pple are so blinded by hatred or blind support for either side that they just support one over the other. As far as I'm concern, support for any particular party = stupid. We should be looking at what they are proposing rather then the stupid brand name of a party

 

[Avenger]

If foundations of democracy where set right, 2 or multi party system will work well in Singapore... but with GRC etc .. everything looks corrupted.. no way SG will carry on same after his death.. be prepared folks..

 

[Singa Crew]

Yah lah yah lah.

If the precious PAP (helmed by your son) loses power, everything will spiral downwards lah.

Hang Seng will spiral downwards, Dow will spiral downwards, price of gold will spiral downwards and even the sky will fall down around us.

Happy now, Mr Lee?

 

[KuanTi01]

Such self-righteousness! He is sorry that his doomsday predictions have fallen short. We need a strong opposition party more than ever. I'll be sorry for Singapore if he keeps sounding out doomsday messages and self-serving predictions for Singapore.

 

[red amoeba]

Since you brought out Japan, Japan just change from the party that ruled them for the last gazillion years and just change it to the other guy. They've been changing Prime Ministers like no tomorrow ever since

As for why the Old Man needs to come out and say it's not good. Hey he's a politician, he wants to keep his party in power obviously he's going to tell U it's no good.

The same could be said of Worker's Party telling U 2 party system is good coz they were using this slogan to get elected. WP spent 90% of the campaign scolding PAP and telling you why a 2 party system is good(or in their words a 1st world government).

Compared to the other parties like *I really hate to say this* SDP who actually came out with proposal(really stupid ones but still they are showing something) WP just kept telling pple more opposition = good. I've listen to most of their rallies which can be summarize as so: 5% telling everyone vote is secret, 90% scolding PAP, 5% telling you more opposition is good. Can they guarantee a 2 party system work? Nope. It's their election strategy, they just stuck to it.

I don't see any difference between what LKY is saying now and what WP was doing during the election. At the end of the day it's the voters who choose. The problem as I see now is pple are so blinded by hatred or blind support for either side that they just support one over the other. As far as I'm concern, support for any particular party = stupid. We should be looking at what they are proposing rather then the stupid brand name of a party

--
WP for info has held Hougang for 2 terms at least. Low has earned his pension. If he has doing a fuck job..or WP in general, u reckon they will be elected?

Personally, I feel Low is one of the politician that talk sense compared to some other more prominent figures - anyway its my opinion.

 

[Lestat]

3 pages and I don't even bother to read what's written inside. LKY, I've got only 1 thing to tell you. If you don't die soon, I'll be sorry for Singapore. :oIo:

 

[yuelao]

It shows that his son, the PM has no control over his father. Despite he stepping down from cabinet, he continues to use taxpayers' money to fly all over the world embarrassing this country. He still has his stable of staff and state amenities. If he built his country right, he would have given up control long ago.

No country and no sane person wants to return to the days of feudalism, monarchy or pseudo monarchy which is pretty much what autocracy is all about with a captive legislative arm. Despite all his years in power, he built an institution which in the wrong hands would be a tyrant's dream. No accountability, no compensating balance and a nation of zombies. He does not understand this and he does not understand that his son and the people in the PAP are not in the same league as him and some of the earlier founders.

LKY is a living fossil and an embarrassment. He still lives in the 60s. The worldwide trend is marching towards democracy. You don't need to look very far, just look at our surrounding countries to get a feel of the pulse of the world. Even China's leaders know that once people have their basic needs satisfied, they will be fighting for more rights. The only way to impose authoritarian control is to keep the population at subsistence levels and only a retarded peasant will think that is a good thing.

 

[dankos]

LKY is a living fossil and an embarrassment. He still lives in the 60s. The worldwide trend is marching towards democracy. You don't need to look very far, just look at our surrounding countries to get a feel of the pulse of the world. Even China's leaders know that once people have their basic needs satisfied, they will be fighting for more rights. The only way to impose authoritarian control is to keep the population at subsistence levels and only a retarded peasant will think that is a good thing.

retarded peasant = fat ass char_azn the pap doggie.

 

[yuelao]

retarded peasant = fat ass char_azn the pap doggie.

Agree with the peasant part but for the retarded part, maybe not. I think he is angling to get himself noticed by PAP so that he can get to enjoy some crumbs thrown by them. His posts are not overtly pro-PAP but it is easy to see through that as he is not very smart.

 

[Char_Azn]

--
WP for info has held Hougang for 2 terms at least. Low has earned his pension. If he has doing a fuck job..or WP in general, u reckon they will be elected?

Personally, I feel Low is one of the politician that talk sense compared to some other more prominent figures - anyway its my opinion.

U seriously want to compare past achivements? Low held Hougang for a few terms vs LKY who drag SG from 3rd world to first.

I just pointed out a simple fact to counter your question. Why did LKY had to come out and state 2 party system not good. Very simple coz Low's WP election slogan was "Towards a 1st world government" meaning more opposition in Parliament = good. As far as the Old Man is concern, it's a direct counter.

Low isn't one that talk that much sense coz he almost doesn't talk at all in Parliament. You guys seem to be forgetting why WP was called Wayang Party. Coz no action from them, in fact more then a few person in here have constantly called WP PAP dogs by a lot of pple in here because of that before this election. Talk about short term memory

Low isn't a very good Parliamentarian, he doesn't speak very well(mostly due to his Chinese background) and he is pretty lousy at debates(if anyone of you actually bother catching Parliamentary sessions). What he is however is a freaking genius at building a political party and a brilliant political strategies. He is patient, knows how to bid his time, knows when to strike and how to strike. Him leaving Hougang for Aljunied and bringing all this best man with him is a calculated and brilliant move. Like what some of the PAP man said, "blackmailing the Aljunied" resident to vote for them for fear of not having an opposition in Parliament.

His patience can be seen via his performance in Parliament. Keeping quiet in Parliament is not a sign of weakness like how most pple see it. He waits for an opportunity to strike and only talk when he deems appropriate. Chiam was the same, how did U think the 2 survived in Parliament this long. If it was that idiot Chee in Parliament, he wouldn't have lasted 1 term.

 

[dankos]

cb fat ass,

if lky is the oppo now with just a few seats, he will tell u 101 reasons why a 2 party system is good. then u the stupid retarded fuck will believe every word your lky god says.

fuck u lah :oIo::oIo:

 

[LeMans2011]

---

Agree with the peasant part but for the retarded part, maybe not. I think he is angling to get himself noticed by PAP so that he can get to enjoy some crumbs thrown by them. His posts are not overtly pro-PAP but it is easy to see through that as he is not very smart.

Indeed. For the longest time he tried very hard to sound objective in his views, but it is not difficult to spot his inherent pro-PAP stance and bias views towards opposition. eg. he says LTK doesn't speak much in Parliament - which is absolute nonsense. LTK has on many instances rose to the occasion even to debate LKY despite his chinese accented English. It does not take a genius to understand you need to wait for your turn to speak in Parliament, not like the outspoken boy in class who can jump to his feet everytime the teacher asks a question. You could see his clear intent to paint LTK in a bad light depicting him as a mere "clever politician".