Lee Kuan Yew - 2 parties system? I'll be sorry for Singapore

[red amoeba]

Let me put it this way. China is the next rising super power. No one is denying whether it will become a super power, it's more a matter of when. If China became a super power by copying us, that means we have a system so good it enables a country to become a super power.

Against, we copy China or the other way round sounds better?

===

Super power militarily or economically? Economically yes - simply by virtue of its large market base and the growing affluence which is ironically, stoked by the introduction of controlled capitalism / free market economy & in a way, FDIs. I don't we can be so thick-skinned to claim credit for being the role model of China for introducing free market economy. It will be inevitable. If not Deng, it will be someone else.

There were already affluent Chinese in China before 1987 - just that their numbers are smaller. And today, why everyone is saying China will overtake USA as number one economy in 20 years is bcos of their growing affluence and at the same time, the decline of USA, Europe and Japan in terms of purchasing power. But one caution, its a growth fueled by export dominated economy - a Coach bag is made in China, exported to USA and imported back to China for sale at many times the manufacturing price. Ditto for ipad, iphones...but i think this growth is not really healthy ...like they say its not built on strong fundamentals. It depends on USA and Europe continuing to buy - and they are...becos china are buying ... so, indirectly, China is like masturbating...deriving pleasure from oneself.

India actually has the potential of being a large consumer market - if they can get their house in order. Hence, someone once told me, communism is the best way for India bcos its too chaotic. Nothing can get done. Is it due to the politicking ? Rather I think its bcos of the old British rule that leave behind many faults. Also, there is the cultural issues regarding castes. I am not expert of India but that's my 2 cents worth.

If we look at Taiwan, they have a 2 party system (or sometimes 3 - if you count those minor parties) - they are practically quarrelling in parliment daily - do we say, Taiwan is worse off? Alright, I can agree that they can be better off because important issues such as arms purchase can be stalled for years bcos of disagreements in parliments & the opposition oppose for sake of opposing not on merits of the issue. The thing about Taiwan is, from what I see, alot of things get done at community or private sector level - which is why the iT sector is booming. Perhaps the government is so busy fixing the opposition that they cannot meddle with the business and enterprises.

 

[tonychat]

Sinkie should adopt U.S democracy system. No U.S president can hold office for more than 2 terms. Unlike LKY and Son, cheebye dogs remain in power for so long. Any different from North Korea?

In order for sinkieland to have real democrarcy, the people must have balls.

The last time i check, they are still licking the PAP balls to earn a salary and complaint any injustice in a god damn forum as though it can solve the problem while still fucking ball-less to go to the streets to fight for their pathetic rights. Of course such reply comes from a sinkie loser like this.

 

[Char_Azn]

===

Super power militarily or economically? Economically yes - simply by virtue of its large market base and the growing affluence which is ironically, stoked by the introduction of controlled capitalism / free market economy & in a way, FDIs. I don't we can be so thick-skinned to claim credit for being the role model of China for introducing free market economy. It will be inevitable. If not Deng, it will be someone else.

There were already affluent Chinese in China before 1987 - just that their numbers are smaller. And today, why everyone is saying China will overtake USA as number one economy in 20 years is bcos of their growing affluence and at the same time, the decline of USA, Europe and Japan in terms of purchasing power. But one caution, its a growth fueled by export dominated economy - a Coach bag is made in China, exported to USA and imported back to China for sale at many times the manufacturing price. Ditto for ipad, iphones...but i think this growth is not really healthy ...like they say its not built on strong fundamentals. It depends on USA and Europe continuing to buy - and they are...becos china are buying ... so, indirectly, China is like masturbating...deriving pleasure from oneself.

You do realize that this was how the US become where it is right? China is still not there yet simply because it's internal markets is not as developed as the US. Once it gets it's own pple to embrace consumerism like the US, they will overtake the US economically even faster. As for militarily, it's also just a matter of time. When it gets the money it will be able to purchase the hardware.

India actually has the potential of being a large consumer market - if they can get their house in order. Hence, someone once told me, communism is the best way for India bcos its too chaotic. Nothing can get done. Is it due to the politicking ? Rather I think its bcos of the old British rule that leave behind many faults. Also, there is the cultural issues regarding castes. I am not expert of India but that's my 2 cents worth.

Agreed. India is being held back by it's freedom and democracy which in turn create Chaos. It has little to do with what the British left behind but more the mentality and culture of the pple. Hard to explain, you need to spend some time there to understand. The rampant corruption doesn't help. India and Taiwan are good examples of how a strong opposition and the level of corruption have little to no correlation.

If we look at Taiwan, they have a 2 party system (or sometimes 3 - if you count those minor parties) - they are practically quarrelling in parliment daily - do we say, Taiwan is worse off? Alright, I can agree that they can be better off because important issues such as arms purchase can be stalled for years bcos of disagreements in parliments & the opposition oppose for sake of opposing not on merits of the issue. The thing about Taiwan is, from what I see, alot of things get done at community or private sector level - which is why the iT sector is booming. Perhaps the government is so busy fixing the opposition that they cannot meddle with the business and enterprises.

Taiwan is actually a very good example of how SG might turn out if we have a 2 party system. Like SG, they effectively had a 1 party system until Ah Bian took over a decade ago. It is also worth noting that SG have been outperforming Taiwan in terms of both GDP and wages increase during this time. Can't really say if it's correlated, maybe it's not but 1 thing I'm pretty certain, when I talked to all my colleagues about politics near the end of Ah Bian error, all of them were hoping Ma will be their savior. You can see it in their vote, they gave the Pan-Blue full control of the entire government.

The political troubles aside, Taiwan's industry managed to keep itself going without the government guiding it. Can SG do the same? Looking back at SG, from the GLCs and Temasek holdings to the every man on the street everyone expecting the government to solve every bloody problem for them, I have a strong feeling we will end up a lot worse then the Taiwanese.

Personally I am not for a 2 party system, at least not in the short term. We are simply not ready. If we are to move towards a 2 party system, it has to be gradual, something like over the next 15-20 years. Give it time to evolve and give the pple time to adjust.

 

[SIFU]

In order for me to become a real man, i must have 2 balls. i now only have 1

The last time i check, i m still licking the dirty angmor balls to earn a salary and complaint any injustice in a god damn forum as though it can solve the problem while i m still fucking ball-less to go to the streets to fight for my pathetic rights. Of course such reply comes from a sinkie loser like me.

cb kia tonychat,

wow. thats a brutally honest confession. would have up your points if u beg for it.

 

[hairylee]

LKY still cannot accept the hard truth.
A two party democracy comes about because his one party rule have screwed up. He was more interested in perpetuating his power than looking after the citizens.
One, two, three or four party rule is inmaterial. It is the citizens that counts. I have faith in Sinkies. If we are smart to put PAP in power I believe we are smart to choose what is good for the country.

 

[red amoeba]

@ char_azn- kindly explain why we are not ready to have a 2 party system? By the same virtue, I can claim we are not ready for a casino -but we have 2. We are not ready for FTs flooding Singapore -which our infrastructure clearly show...u see, my argument is, if you ask PAP - of course they are not ready. Who will be ready to intro more competition?

The biggest argument against a one-party system is, who is to say whatever laws / policies that you pass are actually good? If one don't compare, how do you know what you have is the best?

 

[talkincock]

@ char_azn- kindly explain why we are not ready to have a 2 party system? By the same virtue, I can claim we are not ready for a casino -but we have 2. We are not ready for FTs flooding Singapore -which our infrastructure clearly show...u see, my argument is, if you ask PAP - of course they are not ready. Who will be ready to intro more competition?

The biggest argument against a one-party system is, who is to say whatever laws / policies that you pass are actually good? If one don't compare, how do you know what you have is the best?

Knn.. asking that PAP fat ass mole to explain is a waste of time. LKY should be honest and say he wants PAP to solely remain in power. Simple as that.

 

[red amoeba]

You do realize that this was how the US become where it is right? China is still not there yet simply because it's internal markets is not as developed as the US. Once it gets it's own pple to embrace consumerism like the US, they will overtake the US economically even faster. As for militarily, it's also just a matter of time. When it gets the money it will be able to purchase the hardware.



Agreed. India is being held back by it's freedom and democracy which in turn create Chaos. It has little to do with what the British left behind but more the mentality and culture of the pple. Hard to explain, you need to spend some time there to understand. The rampant corruption doesn't help. India and Taiwan are good examples of how a strong opposition and the level of corruption have little to no correlation.

not easy. The rest of the Asian countries and SEA are apprehensive about their intentions and the way they go around asserting their territorial rights. First, these countries will grow increasingly alarm of her intentions - also thanks to US drumming up her capabilities.

Hardware wise, they will have to develop the necessary hardware themselves - US won't sell their best hardware to them for sure. Neither will China will kowtow to them to buy. So, its either beg borrow or steal.

But who is to say China won't reach there one day? They are already the 3rd country to send a person to space. They are building an aircraft carrier when UK is scrapping theirs. U see already their rising. But this rise won't be easy. And no, I don't foresee them overtaking US anytime soon as military super power.

 

[Blazars]

I think the traditional 4-3-3 system still the best .....

Haha!! Bro... I think traditionally its the 4-4-2 system lah.

 

[groober2011]

The old man's ideas are no longer relevant as Singapore has evolved and progress since independence. Let him talk as much as he wants before we say goodbye to him forever.

 

[kingrant]

Your logic is dubious. If we have a system so good that China becomes a superpower, then how come we are not a superpower?

Being a superpower and being a democracy or not are not related.

If China became a super power by copying us, that means we have a system so good it enables a country to become a super power.

Against, we copy China or the other way round sounds better?

 

[Blazars]

Personally I am not for a 2 party system, at least not in the short term. We are simply not ready. If we are to move towards a 2 party system, it has to be gradual, something like over the next 15-20 years. Give it time to evolve and give the pple time to adjust.

With what the WP are doing, and them winnings 1 GRC for every election onwards, I think in 15-20 yrs time, SG will be ready for a 2 party systems.

Personally, I think with a 2 party systems, the economy with SG companies n SMEs will boom. Right now, the economy is control by 1 party, pappies, via temasek n GLCs. Its not easy for SMEs to be creative unless the SMEs are pro-pappy.
!&!!

 

[Char_Azn]

@ char_azn- kindly explain why we are not ready to have a 2 party system? By the same virtue, I can claim we are not ready for a casino -but we have 2. We are not ready for FTs flooding Singapore -which our infrastructure clearly show...u see, my argument is, if you ask PAP - of course they are not ready. Who will be ready to intro more competition?

The biggest argument against a one-party system is, who is to say whatever laws / policies that you pass are actually good? If one don't compare, how do you know what you have is the best?

U want examples, look at Taiwan and Korea. The economy went backward became stagnant or had slower growth then SG after they ditched the 1 party system. I think we all agree that the Taiwanese and Koreans are more independent minded pple compared to Singaporeans who pretty much depended on the government for EVERYTHING!!!! What is the first thing we do when something goes wrong? Blame the government and expect them to fix it. Don't believe me, go take a look at 99.9999% of the thread in this forum

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to move towards that in the future, neither am I saying out system is the best or that PAP pple at the top are the best. Every system has it's flaws, there is no perfect system in the world. For all we know, it may be more beneficial to move to a 2 party system. My only objection to this is the time frame, that if we are to change it should be a slow and gradual process. To ensure the country have time to change and the pple have time to adapt.

If we look at other examples like Taiwan and Korea, they did it within a very short period they suffered for it. If the more independent minded countries have it so hard, it's going to be even worse for us

 

[Char_Azn]

Your logic is dubious. If we have a system so good that China becomes a superpower, then how come we are not a superpower?

Being a superpower and being a democracy or not are not related.

Name 1 country of similar size/population, surrounded by piss poor nations that have done just as well if not better then us? We are, in most other countries eyes, a red dot in the world with a population and size about that of one of their many cities. How in the world of ass are U expecting us to become a super power. We've been punching above our weight for 50 years. U want us to go back to normal, then look around U. The countries around us will be how we end up if we had a mediocre system.

 

[dankos]

Knn.. asking that PAP fat ass mole to explain is a waste of time. LKY should be honest and say he wants PAP to solely remain in power. Simple as that.

exactly.

fat ass is a pap dog from day 1. his loyalty to pap cannot be doubted.

btw, he is fat for a dog. should be dying soon. arteries are clotting.

 

[dankos]

Name 1 country of similar size/population, surrounded by piss poor nations that have done just as well if not better then us? We are, in most other countries eyes, a red dot in the world with a population and size about that of one of their many cities. How in the world of ass are U expecting us to become a super power. We've been punching above our weight for 50 years. U want us to go back to normal, then look around U. The countries around us will be how we end up if we had a mediocre system.

Cb fat ass,

go look at what u the ccb posted ok. u r the 1 who bring in the world superpower issue. now u say its irrelevant. ccb. u stupid or just plain retarded :oIo::oIo:.

1st u compare our little red dot to china. now u say cannot compare like that. must find a small country surrounded by poor nations to compare. fuck u ok.

its like saying if u can find some1 as fat and as short as u, fat ass u will be able to outrun him. if some1 fatter and shorter than u but fitter, u will say no count. :oIo::oIo:

same same for your soccer theory. if a big country is better than us than u will say its becos they r big. if a small country like uruguay is better than us, u will say no count, must find another country with 5.5m population like us than can compare. :oIo::oIo:

 

[yuelao]

We've been punching above our weight for 50 years. U want us to go back to normal, then look around U. The countries around us will be how we end up if we had a mediocre system.

You fucking Char lAtan, are you kidding me? How many Olympic medals or Nobel Prizes have Sinkies won? Other than being able to work like slaves, what exactly is so unique about Sinkandpoor that we can be proud of? First class infrastructure? You can find that in plenty of other places. You keep wanting to compare with our neighbouring countries, why don't you compare Sinkandpoor with cities in Japan? Because we are nowhere near their efficiency? Fucking cherry-picking in doing comparisons. :oIo:

 

[scroobal]

It shows that his son, the PM has no control over his father. Despite he stepping down from cabinet, he continues to use taxpayers' money to fly all over the world embarrassing this country. He still has his stable of staff and state amenities. If he built his country right, he would have given up control long ago.

No country and no sane person wants to return to the days of feudalism, monarchy or pseudo monarchy which is pretty much what autocracy is all about with a captive legislative arm. Despite all his years in power, he built an institution which in the wrong hands would be a tyrant's dream. No accountability, no compensating balance and a nation of zombies. He does not understand this and he does not understand that his son and the people in the PAP are not in the same league as him and some of the earlier founders.

 

[red amoeba]

U want examples, look at Taiwan and Korea. The economy went backward became stagnant or had slower growth then SG after they ditched the 1 party system. I think we all agree that the Taiwanese and Koreans are more independent minded pple compared to Singaporeans who pretty much depended on the government for EVERYTHING!!!! What is the first thing we do when something goes wrong? Blame the government and expect them to fix it. Don't believe me, go take a look at 99.9999% of the thread in this forum

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to move towards that in the future, neither am I saying out system is the best or that PAP pple at the top are the best. Every system has it's flaws, there is no perfect system in the world. For all we know, it may be more beneficial to move to a 2 party system. My only objection to this is the time frame, that if we are to change it should be a slow and gradual process. To ensure the country have time to change and the pple have time to adapt.

If we look at other examples like Taiwan and Korea, they did it within a very short period they suffered for it. If the more independent minded countries have it so hard, it's going to be even worse for us

===
err...bro, what make u say Taiwan has stagnanted? Is Taiwan sliding backwards to third-world country already? As far as i know, Taiwan is the leading manufacturer for LEDs, HTC / Acer are doing very well. Taiwan benefited from a strong entrepreneur spirit. Yes, historically the government was involved in setting the industry and invested in semi conductor industries but pretty much left things to run after that.

S Korea, too has a government led industry at first - chaebols...Hyundai and Samsung used to the megaweights. But to say they have stagnant is also not correct.

I am not advocating a totally hands off approach by the government, that is not possible. The government still needs to build infrastructure and stuff - they need to set the overtone for economic policies eg: tax policies to entice industries to come etc. This must be the basic duty of all governments - be it China or USA.

When you say 99.9% of Sinkies blame the government for any tom dick and harry stuff - one classic example is the Sungei Rd saga, where the ah peks all kow peh to the gahmen to settle the dispute regarding stall allocation. Why is this happening? Bcos MOE restrict the area of operations for these stallowners. Would you have this problem in Taiwan for example? No, simply because the ah peks will set up their stall along the main road elsewhere. So, if the gahmen have already intervened, then its obvious that the people went back to the gahmen.

Of course, Sinkies r wrong to blame everything the gahmen, but thats not the argument against two party rule. There is no right or wrong time frame...this is not raising GST where you do it in phases. How to prepare for 2 party rule? PAP purposely field a team of idiots in the next election? No, PAP isn't going to do that. Why would PAP on its own dig their grave in doing so? The people will learn to adapt and decide through ballots. What PAP is saying today, is if you vote for another party, you will definitely regret. But who r they to judge & declare that? What makes them so sure? Becos they had done so for the past 50 years? But surely we know, past success do not represent future glory - see case of Nokia.

No try no gain, no fuck no son.

 

[po2wq]

Mr Lee warns of two-party system dangers ...

wen ur ah boy-boy is njoying his astronomical salary n suka-suka lavishing himself wif 8 mth bonuses ... u tink u gonna let sum1 else share dat pie wif him? ...