HSR and RTS Discussion

[Tekkun]

Not so simple.
Its like someone gives you a Ferrari for free but you still need to fork out the hefty COE, road tax and maintenance and operating cost......... while your earning only S$3K per mth.

Precisely. That's why I do not understand why would SG want to pursue this project as it benefit MY more.
It is not the question of funding but the benefits that it will bring.
Malaysia may be keen to do it and it might just end at Nusajaya. I still do not see why Singapore wants to get involved other than to have connectivity between SG and JB. Why would Singapore help to develop MY as it need to protect its own economy?

 

[freekazoid]

Not so simple.
Its like someone gives you a Ferrari for free but you still need to fork out the hefty COE, road tax and maintenance and operating cost......... while your earning only S$3K per mth.

Quite apparent there consortium want to finance the million dollars ferrari + coe + maintenance + op cost exchange for 50yrs....why speculate 3k earning?

 

[freekazoid]

Precisely. That's why I do not understand why would SG want to pursue this project as it benefit MY more.
It is not the question of funding but the benefits that it will bring.
Malaysia may be keen to do it and it might just end at Nusajaya. I still do not see why Singapore wants to get involved other than to have connectivity between SG and JB. Why would Singapore help to develop MY as it need to protect its own economy?

SG is always pursuing economic growth...much bigger pie at stake if HSR turn out well...otherwise it's just a few billion invested to connectivity infra (in economic perspective infra investment is always positive), no biggie...SG been scratchy their head all the time to create project for local industry players. Its a win-win.

 

[snowbird]

Quite apparent there consortium want to finance the million dollars ferrari + coe + maintenance + op cost exchange for 50yrs....why speculate 3k earning?

It was just a simple parable reflecting the situation for you to think about, that S$3K mentioned is immaterial.

I understand that they are planning a 4-car train for this HSR for both the express and non express service.
Compare to the 12-car Shinkansen, this one is really a mini version.
Now, even for 4-car train, one car can sit about 80 to 100 (like the Shinkansen) which make each trip able to take about at least 320 pax.
So, let say the HSR departs every 15mins, and 1/2 hourly during off peak from 6am to 10pm which will provide at least 50 to 60 trips which creates a capacity for about 18,000 passengers/day

Now, lets look at the possible numbers of commuters that shuttle between this 2 cities daily.
There are about 40 schedule flights now that shuttle between SG and KL daily so that only reflect about at most 8,000 pax daily and only on full flights.
Even if all the flying passengers decide to switch to HSR, there are only 8,000 passengers available daily each way.
So, the HSR has to work hard to attract passengers from the self-driving group and the long distance bus commuters with a very reasonable fare to make them switch.
Don't forget that the HSR needs to run multiple trips hourly to breakeven the operation cost and any reduction in trip will only result in low productivity for the system.
Where to get so many passengers everyday to use the HSR will be really a major task for the operators!!

 

[Manhattan]

Let's not be restricted by the current human traffic between kl and sg. With the convenience, there will be more casual travellers and more home trips made by msians working in sg. For instance, I will be more than willing to make a weekend trip to kl for leisure with the hsr, while I will not do with the bus or flight fo obvious reasons.
The hsr will bring to sg the potential for economic growth for the next 50 years, the only way to grow is to be fully connected with world trade.

 

[Tekkun]

All in all, I think SG just do not want to be isolated or left out of any potential growth area. The land connection is as important as air or sea connection.
Maybe that's the main reason for them wanting to be part of this HSR thing. Otherwise just cannot see any reason why would they want to take part when this whole HSR benefit MY.

 

[snowbird]

Let's not be restricted by the current human traffic between kl and sg. With the convenience, there will be more casual travellers and more home trips made by msians working in sg. For instance, I will be more than willing to make a weekend trip to kl for leisure with the hsr, while I will not do with the bus or flight fo obvious reasons.
The hsr will bring to sg the potential for economic growth for the next 50 years, the only way to grow is to be fully connected with world trade.

SG and KL is already effectively connected by air, road and rail.
Countries build mass transit system to move large amount of human traffic and goods between places fast and effectively.
Huge amount of money and resources are need to build and run the system.
But if you do not even have the mass to support the system then why waste your precious resources when the current means are already sufficient.

 

[snowbird]

All in all, I think SG just do not want to be isolated or left out of any potential growth area. The land connection is as important as air or sea connection.
Maybe that's the main reason for them wanting to be part of this HSR thing. Otherwise just cannot see any reason why would they want to take part when this whole HSR benefit MY.

As you can see, in this HSR system, SG's portion is only that few km of rail line plus one station against MY's side of 6 stations and 340km of rail line.
Both development cost and operation/maintenance cost for SG is only a fraction of MY hence SG's willingness to participate so even if the system fails to make money, the damage is much less severe.

In my opinion, running an express and non express HSR service may be a big mistake and will burden the system even further.
Looking at some of the stations like Batu Pahat and Ayer Keroh, how much traffic is expected from this small sleepy towns?
The station in JB is proposed in Nusajaya. So for JB passengers wanting to go to KL, the either go to SG or travel to Nusajaya, how inconvenient!
Also, an express bus from JB to KL only cost only about RM50 and with the HSR ride that may cost 3 times more, how are they going to attract customers?
This reminded me of MAS when they were flying international and domestic flights. While the international routes were already not making much money, the domestic routes were bleeding profusely!
But nobody learned.
However, the whole project was meant to be carved up for the cronies and political patrons and later when completed, awarded as exclusive concessionaire so they need to go ahead.

 

[Tekkun]

As you can see, in this HSR system, SG's portion is only that few km of rail line plus one station against MY's side of 6 stations and 340km of rail line.
Both development cost and operation/maintenance cost for SG is only a fraction of MY hence SG's willingness to participate so even if the system fails to make money, the damage is much less severe.

In my opinion, running an express and non express HSR service may be a big mistake and will burden the system even further.
Looking at some of the stations like Batu Pahat and Ayer Keroh, how much traffic is expected from this small sleepy towns?
The station in JB is proposed in Nusajaya. So for JB passengers wanting to go to KL, the either go to SG or travel to Nusajaya, how inconvenient!
Also, an express bus from JB to KL only cost only about RM50 and with the HSR ride that may cost 3 times more, how are they going to attract customers?
This reminded me of MAS when they were flying international and domestic flights. While the international routes were already not making much money, the domestic routes were bleeding profusely!
But nobody learned.
However, the whole project was meant to be carved up for the cronies and political patrons and later when completed, awarded as exclusive concessionaire so they need to go ahead.

Cronies only happen in MY so SG no need to worry.

 

[RedsYNWA]

SG and KL is already effectively connected by air, road and rail.

Effectively connected by air, Yes. But effectively connected by rail and road? Anyway as you say, SG is just footing a small portion of the bill. Let the Malaysians figure out how to make the system viable, by cross subsidizing from their real estate developments.

 

[snowbird]

Effectively connected by air, Yes. But effectively connected by rail and road? Anyway as you say, SG is just footing a small portion of the bill. Let the Malaysians figure out how to make the system viable, by cross subsidizing from their real estate developments.

You don't agree that SG and KL is effectively connected by rail and road?
Actually, the current railway line runs from Woodlands (used to be Tanjong Pagar) all the way to Bangkok and of course stopping in KL and other major cities like Ipoh, Butterworth, etc, its just whether it was effectively made use of!
For this, I had always wondered why they don't just upgrade the existing system, use rapid trains instead of building an all new one running parallel or next to it!

As for road link, there are now almost a hundred express bus services, express and non express, shuttling between the two cities daily using the North/South highway.
Also, the said highway is quite heavily used by cars, container trailers, lorries with vegetables, poultries, building materials etc.
So why are you doubtful on the road link effectiveness?

 

[Tekkun]

You don't agree that SG and KL is effectively connected by rail and road?
Actually, the current railway line runs from Woodlands (used to be Tanjong Pagar) all the way to Bangkok and of course stopping in KL and other major cities like Ipoh, Butterworth, etc, its just whether it was effectively made use of!
For this, I had always wondered why they don't just upgrade the existing system, use rapid trains instead of building an all new one running parallel or next to it!

As for road link, there are now almost a hundred express bus services, express and non express, shuttling between the two cities daily using the North/South highway.
Also, the said highway is quite heavily used by cars, container trailers, lorries with vegetables, poultries, building materials etc.
So why are you doubtful on the road link effectiveness?

The width of the existing rail tracks cannot be upgraded to fast trains. Apparently there are 2 type of rail tracks, the narrow one and the wider one. So happen that the British built the narrow ones then. You can't take fast corners on narrow tracks. And all the rail cars are of similar design. If you want to change to the wide ones, you have to go for total system change and running parallel is the best way due to existing infrastructure. In later years, the old ones can be dismantled and replaced to have double tracking.

If you look at Klang Valley in Selangor, it is actually a linear city. It consist of 4 towns joined together, stretching from Kajang, KL, PJ, Shah Alam and Klang. They are all joined together and the developments are bunched as each town expanded to each another's boundaries. It is a matter of time, maybe 20 years down the road Johore will happen the same way.

 

[FHBH12]

No change in move to acquire club land
Rennie Whang
The Straits Times
Saturday, Nov 21, 2015

The Government is going ahead with compulsory acquisition of the land occupied by Jurong Country Club regardless of whether the High Speed Rail (HSR) project gets derailed, according to the club's general committee.

JCC said yesterday it will submit its compensation claim to the Collector of Land Revenue next Wednesday, following confirmation that the Collector's Inquiry on compensation for the acquisition of JCC land will take place that day.

Some analysts have speculated that the HSR project may be delayed or even shelved as its key backer, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak, faces tough challenges in domestic politics. Just last month, for example, Malaysia's opposition alliance said it would scrap the project if it won federal power.

But other indicators bode well, with Malaysia and Singapore launching a Request For Information exercise on the HSR earlier last month to seek market views.

The club said in a statement yesterday that members at a recent extraordinary general meeting asked if the HSR project may be cancelled given political uncertainties in Malaysia. "The general committee advised that the Singapore Land Authority (SLA) has made it clear that the acquisition will stay on course regardless of any other issues," it said.

Members would prefer the club to continue to exist, JCC said. "But since this is not possible, they are hoping the compensation will reflect fair value of the loss of the sporting and social benefits of their membership."

JCC said it has been working with its appointed valuers, Knight Frank, and the acquisition task force, which includes several valuation experts.

"We have a duty to the State to arrive at a claim for compensation that is responsible and fair," said club president Bobby Wee. JCC has also co-operated with SLA valuers, providing them with documents, including the club's annual reports and income statement forecast for this year, the club added.

- See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/news/no-change-move-acquire-club-land#sthash.G32rg04v.dpuf

 

[FHBH12]

98 submissions received for KL-Singapore High Speed Rail project
POSTED: 25 Nov 2015 12:22

SINGAPORE: European companies and consortia dominated the Request for Information (RFI) exercise for the Kuala Lumpur-Singapore High Speed Rail project, according to Singapore and Malaysian transport authorities.

A total of 98 submissions were received, including 14 from East Asia firms and 13 from Malaysian firms. The companies and consortia ranged from those in the civil and construction and operator sectors to advisory and technical consultancies, according to a joint press release by Singapore's Land Transport Authority (LTA) and Malaysia’s Suruhanjaya Pengangkutan Awam (SPAD).

“We are grateful for the strong feedback that the market has provided us on our project. We will study the responses thoroughly and consider how the project’s commercial model and procurement approach can be further improved," SPAD CEO Mohd Azharuddin Mat Sah and LTA CEO Chew Men Leong said in a statement.

"We are heartened by the support we have received, and look forward to our continued partnership with the private sector to deliver this exciting and iconic project.”

Both governments expect to finalise the commercial and procurement approach of the project by next year, the two agencies said.
- CNA/kk

www.channelnewsasia.com/mobile/latestnews/98-submissions-received/2291728.html

 

[FHBH12]

Consultants sought for KL-S'pore high-speed rail
Christopher Tan | The Straits Times | Thursday, Nov 26, 2015

The Land Transport Authority (LTA) is looking for consultants to gauge the financial viability of the proposed Kuala Lumpur-Singapore high-speed rail (HSR) project, as well as the commercial risks that it may be exposed to.

In the first such move to assess the viability of the project before tenders are called to finance and build the 350km HSR line, the LTA said the appointed consultant will scrutinise "various entities involved in the whole project".

A spokesman added: "It will take into account factors such as operating patterns and risk management strategies, as well as basic assumptions for the line design."
She said the study would be for the entire line and not just the Singapore portion.

The study will commence early next year, and is expected to be completed by the middle of the year.

The consultant will also examine the various possible commercial and operating models for the project. For instance, the consultant may look at whether the line will be operated separately at both ends of the border, or whether it is more feasible to run it through a single entity that is a joint venture between the two countries.

Financial models may also be examined, such as whether the project will be entirely state-funded, or be launched as a PPP (public-private partnership).

Dr Walter Theseira, an economist at SIM University, said one challenge would be "how to apportion costs and revenue", as the line would involve journeys between cities within Malaysia.

Dr Theseira noted, however, that one could argue such trips would not have taken place without Singapore as a destination.

"One way would be to look to examples in Europe where such inter-city high-speed rail lines exist," he said.

Malaysia's Suruhanjaya Pengangkutan Awam Darat (Spad, or its equivalent of the Land Transport Authority) and the LTA have received 98 submissions in response to their Request for Information exercise on the Kuala Lumpur- Singapore high-speed rail (HSR) project.

In a joint statement yesterday, the two parties said respondents were from "across the HSR value chain", and include companies based in Malaysia, Singapore, the Asia-Pacific region, Europe, the Middle East and North America.

More than half (56 per cent), however, were from Europe, with East Asia accounting for the next biggest group of respondents (14 per cent). The latter group is understood to include Japanese and Chinese entities.

Singapore and Malaysia expect to finalise the commercial model and procurement approach of the project by next year, the statement added.

- See more at: http://transport.asiaone.com/news/g...kl-spore-high-speed-rail#sthash.Pa1xFPgX.dpuf

 

[cybermad]

Consultants sought for KL-S'pore high-speed rail
Christopher Tan | The Straits Times | Thursday, Nov 26, 2015

The Land Transport Authority (LTA) is looking for consultants to gauge the financial viability of the proposed Kuala Lumpur-Singapore high-speed rail (HSR) project, as well as the commercial risks that it may be exposed to.

In the first such move to assess the viability of the project before tenders are called to finance and build the 350km HSR line, the LTA said the appointed consultant will scrutinise "various entities involved in the whole project".

A spokesman added: "It will take into account factors such as operating patterns and risk management strategies, as well as basic assumptions for the line design."
She said the study would be for the entire line and not just the Singapore portion.

The study will commence early next year, and is expected to be completed by the middle of the year.

The consultant will also examine the various possible commercial and operating models for the project. For instance, the consultant may look at whether the line will be operated separately at both ends of the border, or whether it is more feasible to run it through a single entity that is a joint venture between the two countries.

Financial models may also be examined, such as whether the project will be entirely state-funded, or be launched as a PPP (public-private partnership).

Dr Walter Theseira, an economist at SIM University, said one challenge would be "how to apportion costs and revenue", as the line would involve journeys between cities within Malaysia.

Dr Theseira noted, however, that one could argue such trips would not have taken place without Singapore as a destination.

"One way would be to look to examples in Europe where such inter-city high-speed rail lines exist," he said.

Malaysia's Suruhanjaya Pengangkutan Awam Darat (Spad, or its equivalent of the Land Transport Authority) and the LTA have received 98 submissions in response to their Request for Information exercise on the Kuala Lumpur- Singapore high-speed rail (HSR) project.

In a joint statement yesterday, the two parties said respondents were from "across the HSR value chain", and include companies based in Malaysia, Singapore, the Asia-Pacific region, Europe, the Middle East and North America.

More than half (56 per cent), however, were from Europe, with East Asia accounting for the next biggest group of respondents (14 per cent). The latter group is understood to include Japanese and Chinese entities.

Singapore and Malaysia expect to finalise the commercial model and procurement approach of the project by next year, the statement added.

- See more at: http://transport.asiaone.com/news/g...kl-spore-high-speed-rail#sthash.Pa1xFPgX.dpuf

Strange that this comes immediately after the announcement of China buying Malaysian bonds and the power assets of 1MDB...coincidence or ...?

 

[RedsYNWA]

Ridership study to be conducted for Singapore-JB Rapid Transit System


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/ridership-study-to-be/2336708.html

https://www.gebiz.gov.sg/scripts/main.do?doctype=TT&doc=LTA000ETT15000277&extSystemCode=E

 

[FHBH12]

Ridership study to be conducted for Singapore-JB Rapid Transit System


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/ridership-study-to-be/2336708.html

https://www.gebiz.gov.sg/scripts/main.do?doctype=TT&doc=LTA000ETT15000277&extSystemCode=E

If RTS is materialised, it will have a big positive impact on JB retail, F&B and properties. SG retail and F&B might suffer though.

 

[Jetstream]

Ridership study to be conducted for Singapore-JB Rapid Transit System


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/ridership-study-to-be/2336708.html

https://www.gebiz.gov.sg/scripts/main.do?doctype=TT&doc=LTA000ETT15000277&extSystemCode=E

Study after study after study....sigh

 

[RedsYNWA]

Study after study after study....sigh

From what I see, there are 2 studies now: Phase 1 & 2 of Aecom's study and this new study.

Phase 1 of Aecom's study has been completed. Before proceeding on Phase 2 of Aecom's study, LTA (probably under Khaw's instruction) is carrying out a commercial feasibility study so that phase 2 (on detailed engineering aspects) can be on more solid financial grounds.

This new study is a small 1 (only S$1m contract compared to Aecom's US$42m) and should be wrapped up easily by 3Q2016. Earliest opening date seem to be 2022-2023 now.