happy new year

[drifter]

pslam23 ...ok now im going to post something you really love ...feel high anot ? ;_)

 

[drifter]

 

[drifter]

 

[drifter]

 

[drifter]

 

[fishbuff]

Yes, Christians are often being labelled by unbelivers to be stupid, world-speaking and I accept this without any offence. Whether other Christians can accept or not, it up to them. But when God calls you a fool, that's something you cannot, should not and must not take comfort with and ignore it. You have searched very hard for the answers that God exists, Jesus saves. Have you...most probably because I seemed to have read that you were a Christian for more than 20 years. If you truly are a Christian in the first place, there is a great hope...God has promised that He will not foresake His children. You will someday, somehow come back to Him. You may be backslided now, but Jesus will slide you back, if only you are really a believer in the first place. All glory to God.

well, if you believe in jesus, then you should believe in the existence of allah, su mukong, vishnu, zeus etc.. what give you the right to say that only jesus exist and other religion are false?

if my take on homo is on the other side of fence of religion, then whatabout religion mass killing the canaanites, elisha's curse on the village which god sent she-bear to tear them from limbs to limbs, village that saw the ark of convenant were smited by god where 50,000 died, not to mention the residents of jericho, first-born of egypt, the whole getting drowned.

well, here's one thing for you to consider, if god is all so knowing and can see into the future, why will he flooded and killed everyone on earth, and when the descendents of Noah's populated the earth, the whole frigging things of human falling into evilness start all over again. if he can see such thing in the future, why bother to create in the first place?

now i give him too much credits as my above text is citing god's existence as real.

what a bunch of hypocrites!!! you can pray and give thanks to god for finding you an empty carpark space, but the millions starved in africa have few food aids. didnt jesus ask you to share you pants with the poor and keep none for yourself?

how many rich churches like CHC, NCC and many others well paid pastors earning over $5k/mth ARE living in singapore, refusing to take up the commission of jesus to venture into the 3rd world countries to evengalise. if you cant follow directly what jesus has comanded you to do, then admit it. you are just a half-bucket believers. neither hot or cold... lukewarm. you know what jesus say about lukewarm christians. at least im in the cold zone.. 100% sure.

Singapore's education system in the past didnt expose us to better things like critical thinkings and facts. all are based on belief an obedience. im too a victim of such education system where the teachers are considered as infallible and once they opened their mouth about jesus and god, i frigging had to believe it... lacking the capacity to thinking critically and courage to question the existence, i fell into religious ignorance for many years. as the song goes; "i once was blind but now i see.."

 

[Psalm23]

well, if you believe in jesus, then you should believe in the existence of allah, su mukong, vishnu, zeus etc.. what give you the right to say that only jesus exist and other religion are false?

if my take on homo is on the other side of fence of religion, then whatabout religion mass killing the canaanites, elisha's curse on the village which god sent she-bear to tear them from limbs to limbs, village that saw the ark of convenant were smited by god where 50,000 died, not to mention the residents of jericho, first-born of egypt, the whole getting drowned.

well, here's one thing for you to consider, if god is all so knowing and can see into the future, why will he flooded and killed everyone on earth, and when the descendents of Noah's populated the earth, the whole frigging things of human falling into evilness start all over again. if he can see such thing in the future, why bother to create in the first place?

now i give him too much credits as my above text is citing god's existence as real.

what a bunch of hypocrites!!! you can pray and give thanks to god for finding you an empty carpark space, but the millions starved in africa have few food aids. didnt jesus ask you to share you pants with the poor and keep none for yourself?

how many rich churches like CHC, NCC and many others well paid pastors earning over $5k/mth ARE living in singapore, refusing to take up the commission of jesus to venture into the 3rd world countries to evengalise. if you cant follow directly what jesus has comanded you to do, then admit it. you are just a half-bucket believers. neither hot or cold... lukewarm. you know what jesus say about lukewarm christians. at least im in the cold zone.. 100% sure.

Singapore's education system in the past didnt expose us to better things like critical thinkings and facts. all are based on belief an obedience. im too a victim of such education system where the teachers are considered as infallible and once they opened their mouth about jesus and god, i frigging had to believe it... lacking the capacity to thinking critically and courage to question the existence, i fell into religious ignorance for many years. as the song goes; "i once was blind but now i see.."

What you have said about us are all TRUE. This really confirms what the Bible says: No one is righteous and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. What this has to do with the existence of God? God still exists whether there are such churches as NCC, CHC?, the 'rich' churches, the 'poor' churches. God doesn't need them to prove His existence. His existence is shown to us in His revealed and inspired word, the Bible.

Missionaries reaching out to third world countries....plenty. In fact, many Bibles were translated into tribal languages not by the tribal people themselves. The translators were foreigners who given up their secular career, spent years learning their tribal languages and translate the Bible into their languages.

The earliest protestant Chinese Bible was not translated by the Chinese. They were translated by foreigners such as Frederick W. Baller, C. Goodrich, Calvin Wilson Mateer, Spencer Lewis, George Owen. With the help of some Chinese language assistants, they translated the Bible into Chinese. You are barking at the wrong tree. I have been see many Christians giving up their successful secular jobs and went to third world countries to share the Gospel and often in the most uncompromising environments. They could have comfortable lives back home but they chose to go to places where they couln't even find safe clean water. Please don't bark at the wrong tree.

CHC, NCC, etc..and those hundred or even thousand of 'prosperity' churches in the U.S. and in some western countries do not represent Christian community at large. What they do are their business and having nothing to do with the existence of God. Some of their practices are condemned by Jesus and what they did mirrored many of the practices of the pharisees and the scribes whom Jesus has blatantly told us not to imitate them. Don't keep barking at the wrong tree!

 

[The Philistine]

What you have said about us are all TRUE. This really confirms what the Bible says: No one is righteous and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. What this has to do with the existence of God? God still exists whether there are such churches as NCC, CHC?, the 'rich' churches, the 'poor' churches. God doesn't need them to prove His existence. His existence is shown to us in His revealed and inspired word, the Bible.

According to the Bible, the Bible is true. Therefore the Bible is true. Stupid reasoning.

Missionaries reaching out to third world countries....plenty. In fact, many Bibles were translated into tribal languages not by the tribal people themselves. The translators were foreigners who given up their secular career, spent years learning their tribal languages and translate the Bible into their languages.

The earliest protestant Chinese Bible was not translated by the Chinese. They were translated by foreigners such as Frederick W. Baller, C. Goodrich, Calvin Wilson Mateer, Spencer Lewis, George Owen. With the help of some Chinese language assistants, they translated the Bible into Chinese. You are barking at the wrong tree. I have been see many Christians giving up their successful secular jobs and went to third world countries to share the Gospel and often in the most uncompromising environments. They could have comfortable lives back home but they chose to go to places where they couln't even find safe clean water. Please don't bark at the wrong tree.,

The fact that many xtians gave up their successful secular jobs to toil in some third world shitholes does not mean your god exists. If you must use this line of reasoning, you should extend it to the adherents of other religions. For instance, some Buddhists also did the same thing as these xtians but will you extend the same validity to Buddhism as you have done for your faith?

CHC, NCC, etc..and those hundred or even thousand of 'prosperity' churches in the U.S. and in some western countries do not represent Christian community at large. What they do are their business and having nothing to do with the existence of God. Some of their practices are condemned by Jesus and what they did mirrored many of the practices of the pharisees and the scribes whom Jesus has blatantly told us not to imitate them. Don't keep barking at the wrong tree!

It always cracks me up when I hear religionists of the same ilk condemning their brethren as being non-representative of their faith. If your god is perfect, surely there would be no room for deviations in the execution of his doctrines. This is not the case however. What you have from these "prosperity" churches is that they are making use of your god to benefit themselves, instead of using themselves to benefit their god. Your god has become from master to servant! Pathetic!

 

[gymkhana]

Mr Psalm ,
You keep saying the bible is the inspired word of god. But which are the ones that are inspired and which words were just man n scribes trying to write the scriptures with their own hands?
As the bible scholar and ex christian evangelist Bart erhmann pointed out in the new testament there are so many differences between the manuscripts as well as errors that if you take just a second to think,
You will also come to the only conclusion that the bible is not really the word of God .
The bible MAY contain some words that were divinely inspired but most of it.... NOT!
Hate to disappoint you there.
"there are more differences betwen the manuscripts in the copies of the New Testament(as close to the original as they cold find) than there are words! Astounded much?
Yup. Some words or even whole chapters were added on centuries after the so called first copies were found and some additions and deletions were even made in the late 16th century.
Youtube bart erhmann and watch the hour long video.

So back to the question which u must answer and answer truthfully and sincerely,

WHICH ARE THE WORDS OF GOD AND WHICH ARENT?


Peace

 

[fishbuff]

What you have said about us are all TRUE. This really confirms what the Bible says: No one is righteous and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. What this has to do with the existence of God? God still exists whether there are such churches as NCC, CHC?, the 'rich' churches, the 'poor' churches. God doesn't need them to prove His existence. His existence is shown to us in His revealed and inspired word, the Bible.

Missionaries reaching out to third world countries....plenty. In fact, many Bibles were translated into tribal languages not by the tribal people themselves. The translators were foreigners who given up their secular career, spent years learning their tribal languages and translate the Bible into their languages.

The earliest protestant Chinese Bible was not translated by the Chinese. They were translated by foreigners such as Frederick W. Baller, C. Goodrich, Calvin Wilson Mateer, Spencer Lewis, George Owen. With the help of some Chinese language assistants, they translated the Bible into Chinese. You are barking at the wrong tree. I have been see many Christians giving up their successful secular jobs and went to third world countries to share the Gospel and often in the most uncompromising environments. They could have comfortable lives back home but they chose to go to places where they couln't even find safe clean water. Please don't bark at the wrong tree.

these are pastors of the old and i do take my hat off to these selfless preachers, for those people that are willing to give up their comfort livestyle and venture into the 3rd world is highly commendable too. these are the true followers of jesus' teachings, and whatabout you and your fellow comrades? still sitting on the fence? livestyle in sg is too comfy for you to let go? like those charlatans in CHC, NCC, and other religious places that find comfy jobs in sg and wont dare to venture out, ha,... hypocrites. Just like that tv evengalists Ted Haggward, on the pupid, he condemns homosexuality and upheld christianity, but secretly, he has 2 gay partners..

the days of true christanity are over, nowadays, you can see those 40+ religious leaders hypocrites manipulating those young believers for their own gain.

CHC, NCC, etc..and those hundred or even thousand of 'prosperity' churches in the U.S. and in some western countries do not represent Christian community at large. What they do are their business and having nothing to do with the existence of God. Some of their practices are condemned by Jesus and what they did mirrored many of the practices of the pharisees and the scribes whom Jesus has blatantly told us not to imitate them. Don't keep barking at the wrong tree!

alright, i can talk about scriptures if you want but basically the topic for god's existence has been set that god doesnt exist but what the heck...

come on, how much of the bible have you studied before? are you still cherry picking those nice verses to justify god's love but none to reflect his true nature and the tyranny and misery that he has caused in the old testament. geonicide, murders, rape, slavery, tyranny, the list go on and on. i remembered in my early days when i was involved in cell group doing bible study, no one will pick those verses that dwell on murder and superstitions. i asked the pastors why god keep killing people over small matters and the reply was; "because he is god and he can do whatever he like."

sure.... that is why we have crusades, inquisition, priest sex scandals, and have you read about SALEM's incident? how a reverend managed to bring up a whole town over witch hunt and hung over 200 innocent lives?

why god in OT is so vengeful and now so nice in the NT? well, sort of, until in the book of revelation, he still reveal his true nature of hatred for people that refuse to stroke his ego and will cast them into burning hell. answer this.

in europe, the number of church attendances are dwindling fast. churches are now sold to art gallery or turn into casinos. why? the more educated the population is, the greater the awareness of religious falicies are.

putting the tree of knowledge and live and death in the presence of adam and eve? is this how you test a person's will? this is like me giving a 5 years old kid a live grenade to test his free will. you can show him how to pull the pin but instruct him later not to pull, is that responsible parenting or even ownership over the creation?

once you surrendered your mind to the religions, that is it! your logic, reasoning are all out of the windows. basically your pastor own you and your will.

how many pastors do not dare to dabble or open the book of science? once they dwell on logics and facts, they know that their world of religions will crumble around them. Either they gave in to the facts or they can keep pressing the "IGNORE" button.

 

[God my healer]

hi, you dont believe the Bible is true then i can still respect your choice. But you should try to understand our choice and position too.
Its all about being fair isnt it?

Many Xtians give up their security , jobs and comfort because THEY believe they are answering their call. As for the other religions, this is really not the platform for us to comment or discuss. In this forum it is better that we just share our own religion.

We believe that God is perfect and that we are the ones that fouled everything up. Again i am sure you will disagree. Thats ok , each of us have our own thoughts and convictions and i see no point to quarrel and be bitter over such things .

According to the Bible, the Bible is true. Therefore the Bible is true. Stupid reasoning.



The fact that many xtians gave up their successful secular jobs to toil in some third world shitholes does not mean your god exists. If you must use this line of reasoning, you should extend it to the adherents of other religions. For instance, some Buddhists also did the same thing as these xtians but will you extend the same validity to Buddhism as you have done for your faith?



It always cracks me up when I hear religionists of the same ilk condemning their brethren as being non-representative of their faith. If your god is perfect, surely there would be no room for deviations in the execution of his doctrines. This is not the case however. What you have from these "prosperity" churches is that they are making use of your god to benefit themselves, instead of using themselves to benefit their god. Your god has become from master to servant! Pathetic!

 

[drifter]

hi, you dont believe the Bible is true then i can still respect your choice. But you should try to understand our choice and position too.
Its all about being fair isnt it?

Many Xtians give up their security , jobs and comfort because THEY believe they are answering their call. As for the other religions, this is really not the platform for us to comment or discuss. In this forum it is better that we just share our own religion.

We believe that God is perfect and that we are the ones that fouled everything up. Again i am sure you will disagree. Thats ok , each of us have our own thoughts and convictions and i see no point to quarrel and be bitter over such things .

" hi, you dont believe the Bible is true then i can still respect your choice. But you should try to understand our choice and position too.
Its all about being fair isnt it " ?


my friend , respect must be earned, it is not be given "willy nilly." you owe respect to no one and no thing. if they want their religion to be respected, then their religion must earn it...i don't have to respect anyone favorite sports team or political views...why religion?
not everyone or everything deserves to be respected...by the way , should we respect terroist beliefs that happen on 9/11 ?

however, because religion is so based in the emotions, this is highly unlikely (everything is either based in logic or emotion, since religion is not based on logic, it is based on emotion). So, while i agree with the point that you are trying to make, i would be prepared for strong emotional reaction when you disagree with someone's religion or religious views . all religions should be disrespected, especially if your definition of "disrepect" is "any criticism".

religions tend to get overly offended at anything less than a wholesale assumption of validity. this makes people less likely to criticize it and shields it from any valid critique.
so, i think people shouldn't worry about offending another person's religion. they would rather you not notice all the crazy claims they make. it hurts their business.
religion is about emotional control of their converts. So, they don't like a lot of constructive criticism levied against their claims. they especially don't like when humor is used to point out their more ludicrous claims. humor, especially, breaks the emotional hold they have. their defense is to be extremely offended at any such attempt.

granted, we shouldn't be discriminatory against people because of whatever beliefs they hold. but the belief, itself, is fair game.
any belief that can't stand on its own merit is not much of a belief.

 

[Psalm23]

According to the Bible, the Bible is true. Therefore the Bible is true. Stupid reasoning.

The fact that many xtians gave up their successful secular jobs to toil in some third world shitholes does not mean your god exists. If you must use this line of reasoning, you should extend it to the adherents of other religions. For instance, some Buddhists also did the same thing as these xtians but will you extend the same validity to Buddhism as you have done for your faith?

It always cracks me up when I hear religionists of the same ilk condemning their brethren as being non-representative of their faith. If your god is perfect, surely there would be no room for deviations in the execution of his doctrines. This is not the case however. What you have from these "prosperity" churches is that they are making use of your god to benefit themselves, instead of using themselves to benefit their god. Your god has become from master to servant! Pathetic!

Agree...just because there are successful people...career-wise and given up their career to go to do missinoary work doesn't prove God exist....the same reason and logical must also apply...just because there are great men - scientists, artists, famous politicians, etc...who condemned Bible and say God doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that God really doesn't exist. All these are irelevant to the religious faith of each individual and must not be the reason for our belief.

You just simply jump to your conclusion and I don't see anyone of us here is telling others that just because there are successful people given up their secular career and go and do the missionary work, therefore God exists.

 

[fishbuff]

Agree...just because there are successful people...career-wise and given up their career to go to do missinoary work doesn't prove God exist....the same reason and logical must also apply...just because there are great men - scientists, artists, famous politicians, etc...who condemned Bible and say God doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that God really doesn't exist. All these are irelevant to the religious faith of each individual and must not be the reason for our belief.

You just simply jump to your conclusion and I don't see anyone of us here is telling others that just because there are successful people given up their secular career and go and do the missionary work, therefore God exists.

if you keep dwelling in the circles of believers, then you WILL get those answers that fortify your belief.
if you are serious to find out more about the truth, you should step out of the religious circle and talk to real people with real science knowledge.

 

[guy-uninterrupted]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gC2_IMz9qcY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watch Prof Keith Moore amongst other scientists neurologists and mathematicians who have found the truth.

peace

 

[fishbuff]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gC2_IMz9qcY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watch Prof Keith Moore amongst other scientists neurologists and mathematicians who have found the truth.

peace

wow.. another religion.. all Kufir have to pay jizyah tax. Do you agree with this?

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax)

 

[fishbuff]

i like this verse;

Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56

The abrahamic religions are really intolerant to other set of beliefs, and they can think of absolute evil to punish unbelievers.
merciful? i seriously doubt so!

one go for the belief in the fallen jewish state thousands of years ago.
another go for the belief that desert nomads had thousands of years ago.
the next one was from a fallen prince who had a rude shock from difference in life thousands of years ago.

where is the common sense in the modern day society? dont be too hung up on these religions. look at the state we are in now, religious violences keep occuring at this time.

 

[Psalm23]

if you keep dwelling in the circles of believers, then you WILL get those answers that fortify your belief.
if you are serious to find out more about the truth, you should step out of the religious circle and talk to real people with real science knowledge.

You seriously think this can help people to come to a firm conclusion on the existence of God? And what is your definition of people with real science knowledge? Is that such thing an unreal science knowledge? Please enlighten us.

Two of the most respectable scientists that the world has ever known - Sir Issac Newton and Pascal - were very strong in their Christian faith. It was told that Sir Issac Newton was so convinced that the Bible is the inspired word of God that he spent substantial part of his life studying theology. Ivan Panin, an Italian mathematics genesis who initially was a die-hard atheist discovered, quite by accident, extremely unusual mathematical codes in the Bible so much so that he spent many decades trying to uncode these mathematical codes and because of this discovery he became a very committed Christian. His final conclusion is that the Bible can only be written with divine guidance.

Frankly, do all these prove anything - God exists? No. That's my view. Just like Leonardo da Vinci's painting of Mona Lisa proves that there was a very talented artists, the handiwork of God, His creation, the stars, the planets, the plants, the flowers, proves that there is a Divine Being otherwise subject object can never created by pure chance, just like the painting of Mona Lisa could have just appeared from nowhere. We don't need scientists to tell us there is God, neither do we need scientist to tell us there is no God. The existence of God is declared in the heaven - Psalm 19:1 - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

By your reasoning, how about those people who have no education and they want to be serious about religion, who you think they should ask? Talk to scientists? To begin with, I wonder those scientists want to talk to them, and even they do, I don't think they understand, and I must say I too don't understand much about science.

 

[fishbuff]

You seriously think this can help people to come to a firm conclusion on the existence of God? And what is your definition of people with real science knowledge? Is that such thing an unreal science knowledge? Please enlighten us.

Two of the most respectable scientists that the world has ever known - Sir Issac Newton and Pascal - were very strong in their Christian faith. It was told that Sir Issac Newton was so convinced that the Bible is the inspired word of God that he spent substantial part of his life studying theology. Ivan Panin, an Italian mathematics genesis who initially was a die-hard atheist discovered, quite by accident, extremely unusual mathematical codes in the Bible so much so that he spent many decades trying to uncode these mathematical codes and because of this discovery he became a very committed Christian. His final conclusion is that the Bible can only be written with divine guidance.

Frankly, do all these prove anything - God exists? No. That's my view. Just like Leonardo da Vinci's painting of Mona Lisa proves that there was a very talented artists, the handiwork of God, His creation, the stars, the planets, the plants, the flowers, proves that there is a Divine Being otherwise subject object can never created by pure chance, just like the painting of Mona Lisa could have just appeared from nowhere. We don't need scientists to tell us there is God, neither do we need scientist to tell us there is no God. The existence of God is declared in the heaven - Psalm 19:1 - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

By your reasoning, how about those people who have no education and they want to be serious about religion, who you think they should ask? Talk to scientists? To begin with, I wonder those scientists want to talk to them, and even they do, I don't think they understand, and I must say I too don't understand much about science.

both of them lived in the 16th century, that was way before Charles Darwin's origin of species came out in 1850+. have you heard of Bruno? he came up with a theory that challenged the concept of heliocentricity (meaning earth was the centre of the universe), and what did the church did to him, HE WAS BURNT AT THE STAKE BY THE INQUISITION!!

dont talk about science especially during that period of time, the church had such a strong chokehold on everything even the brilliant mind of budding scientists at that era. Didnt you watch that film on the inquisition? it is faith and belief that driven men to kill so many other people that are different from them. The greeks were alot smarter than these pinheads but they were wiped out by the growing power of the vatican church under the roman empire. they didnt call it "the dark ages" for nothing.

Leonardo, Michaelangelo, and the other famous artists ARE living off the churches for they commissioned them to paint and sculpted for them. of course they have to bent to the church's will if you want to continue earning your living.

so, the only source that you can solely depend on for the justification of god's existence is from the bible. how can that be? if that is the case, then the flying spaghetti monster should equally exists as well according to the pastafarian's book. at least the pastafarian' SFM didnt smite and kill everyone.

as mentioned before, your religion doesnt stand out too much from the flying unicorn, allah, vishnu and others if you examine them without any preference under scientific methodology. all are hocus pocus.

psalm23; " I must say I too don't understand much about science"

THAT IS THE KEY! you need to understand more about science.. stop dwelling on religious books and start a curiosity in you. there are heaps of youtube's documentaries that talk about science. At least make an effort to learn about them, and even if you have exhausted all means and still go back to religion, hey, YOU have made a considerable effort and you have overcome intellectual laziness.

i lived in singapore for so many years, i know how it is to be closed up. that stifling, hot humid weather, crowded, zero employee's rights, people dominated your lives and thoughts, tv programs' suck all time high with those stupid eatery programs and ah lian tv series (gosh, i really hate mediacorp's shows), draconian's teacher style of teaching. I really wonder what we really learnt in schools? we learn because we have to earn a living? or is it a joy to learn, explore and be curious about everything? i tend to lean on the latter.

Now you have found these revelations, what are you going to do about it? ignore it? try to learn it? for starter, learn what is biology, what the experts had to say about them, then slowly progress to the wonders of the universe.

i have briefly learn superficially on those theories from penrose, hawking, succind, einstein, heseinberg, borh, dawkins, myers, darwins.... i should have done this years ago but sadly, in sg, you wont get to do that. someone will dominate and rule over your mind; be it job, finance, relationship, boss, friends, colleagues, family, Govt (fk), teachers.. im glad im free from those now.

 

[Psalm23]

both of them lived in the 16th century, that was way before Charles Darwin's origin of species came out in 1850+. have you heard of Bruno? he came up with a theory that challenged the concept of heliocentricity (meaning earth was the centre of the universe), and what did the church did to him, HE WAS BURNT AT THE STAKE BY THE INQUISITION!!

dont talk about science especially during that period of time, the church had such a strong chokehold on everything even the brilliant mind of budding scientists at that era. Didnt you watch that film on the inquisition? it is faith and belief that driven men to kill so many other people that are different from them. The greeks were alot smarter than these pinheads but they were wiped out by the growing power of the vatican church under the roman empire. they didnt call it "the dark ages" for nothing.

Leonardo, Michaelangelo, and the other famous artists ARE living off the churches for they commissioned them to paint and sculpted for them. of course they have to bent to the church's will if you want to continue earning your living.

so, the only source that you can solely depend on for the justification of god's existence is from the bible. how can that be? if that is the case, then the flying spaghetti monster should equally exists as well according to the pastafarian's book. at least the pastafarian' SFM didnt smite and kill everyone.

as mentioned before, your religion doesnt stand out too much from the flying unicorn, allah, vishnu and others if you examine them without any preference under scientific methodology. all are hocus pocus.

psalm23; " I must say I too don't understand much about science"

THAT IS THE KEY! you need to understand more about science.. stop dwelling on religious books and start a curiosity in you. there are heaps of youtube's documentaries that talk about science. At least make an effort to learn about them, and even if you have exhausted all means and still go back to religion, hey, YOU have made a considerable effort and you have overcome intellectual laziness.

i lived in singapore for so many years, i know how it is to be closed up. that stifling, hot humid weather, crowded, zero employee's rights, people dominated your lives and thoughts, tv programs' suck all time high with those stupid eatery programs and ah lian tv series (gosh, i really hate mediacorp's shows), draconian's teacher style of teaching. I really wonder what we really learnt in schools? we learn because we have to earn a living? or is it a joy to learn, explore and be curious about everything? i tend to lean on the latter.

Now you have found these revelations, what are you going to do about it? ignore it? try to learn it? for starter, learn what is biology, what the experts had to say about them, then slowly progress to the wonders of the universe.

i have briefly learn superficially on those theories from penrose, hawking, succind, einstein, heseinberg, borh, dawkins, myers, darwins.... i should have done this years ago but sadly, in sg, you wont get to do that. someone will dominate and rule over your mind; be it job, finance, relationship, boss, friends, colleagues, family, Govt (fk), teachers.. im glad im free from those now.

We hear often - sometimes to much - accusation 'the church', 'the church'...the church did this, did that, etc....Who were and are these people running 'the church?' Many are no different from those that Jesus rebuked them - the pharaisees, the scribes. We must go back to the days of Jesus...did Jesus did that Himself? Did any of the apostles did those things done by 'the church?' The saddest thing that now Jesus looking down from heaven is to see some of the people from these 'the church' are doing. Many are doing all the wrong things. Yes many of 'the church' activities and what they do are not right or not in accordance with what the Bible teaches, so what? You mean because of these God doesn't exist? Jesus did not die on the cross? Except Apostle John, all the other apostles were executed by hanging, by burning because of their faith in Jesus - so was this a lie just because those 'the church' people do something that atheists find it not right?

I think the right way to dispute the claim is to bring out those things that Jesus did and/or His apostles did. And did they burnt other people to death because others didn't want to believe that Jesus is God; did they went around asking for money; did they lived a luxurious lives (like what many of 'the church' leaders do - with private jets, staying in hotels that can cost several thousands per night, commit extra-marital relastionship). In fact, Apostle Paul financed his own missionary work by making tents and the term 'tentmaking' came from this practice by Apostle Paul. The reason was that he didn't want to burden the church members with finance and he preferred to make his own living by making tents and at the same time serving God.

Perhaps, another analogy I can give - you may think this is a bad one, but it doesn't bother me - if God exists and so perfect, why He created a person like me.....so terrible, so horrible...surely God cannot exist and I cannot be created by God otherwise how come I am so terrible, so horrible......I think of nothing but evil continuously, I hate my enemies; I am rude to my parents; I am unforgiving....cannot mah, right?...where got such God? Oh, so just because you are so teribble and horrible, than the world should be devoid of God? And oh, just because theere are 'pastors' who are so horrible, so terrible, than there is no God.

The people from those of 'the church' are like you and me...the only difference is that those people just confessed that Jesus is God, they believe in the Bible, God is the Creator of the Universe....but are they really beiievers, let God be the Judge. We see that there are judges pledging allegiance to the Constitutions of a nation, President to be performed for the benefits of his or her country men, yet we see so many corrupt judges, presidents. So, does this mean that judges and presidents don't exist at all? They are all imaginary figures?

Too often we heard about Vatican, about this pastor, that pastor...about the people from 'the church here', 'the church there'.....sorry....I don't care about those people in the Vatican, those people from 'the church.' I am basing my faith on those people mentioned in the Bible, of the finished work of Jesus on the cross. If you are serious about what Vatican, what Roman Catholism is all about, there are alot in the internet. All I can say, factually speaking, this is one of the most well-established and yet the most dispersed MNC organizations but it has very great influence on the international politics and country leaders. This organization is one of the riches. It is one of the biggest landowners in most countries it operates. Is this biblical? So, say ok...we respect them; so say no, we respect them...and of course I say no, this is not biblical. So, please note that Vatican and their practices do no represent all Christians.