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Give us HDB flats AT COST, not 30 yrs Mortgage Enslavement!

Dear Zombie,

I think not. Product market segmentation is not only for one producer. Even in private markets, there are product segmentation with multi-players involved i.e. Condo & Landed properties market.

Goh Meng Seng



You are mixing it up..... private property are not products of HDB... what product differentiation are you talking about?

Do you also suggest foreign property, a product differentiation from local property?

:D
 
Private property prices are dependent on public housing prices. It's commonsense economics. Only when public housing prices cross, say, $500k per 4-room flat, can a private 4-room condo price cross $1m. In the days when HDB was on rental policy and it cost $20 per month to rent a 3-room flat, a 2-storey bungalow at Oxley cost less than $50k.
 
Dear Zombie,

I think not. Product market segmentation is not only for one producer. Even in private markets, there are product segmentation with multi-players involved i.e. Condo & Landed properties market.

Goh Meng Seng

you want to create new market segment for new buyers of flats at cost, away from other buyers of flats at market-subsidy price.... then the product differentiation should be based on these two... don't deviate to anything else...
 
you want to create new market segment for new buyers of flats at cost, away from other buyers of flats at market-subsidy price.... then the product differentiation should be based on these two... don't deviate to anything else...

The thing is this, people keep having this mistaken view that such move will affect the resale market prices which affect the present HDB owners. There could be some minor impact but due to the market segmentation done by the regulations and rules, such impact will be minimal. That's my point.

Goh Meng Seng
 
The thing is this, people keep having this mistaken view that such move will affect the resale market prices which affect the present HDB owners. There could be some minor impact but due to the market segmentation done by the regulations and rules, such impact will be minimal. That's my point.

Goh Meng Seng

You keep thinking that other have this "mistaken view" about market projection...

I believe I told you before that it is about acceptance.. you are not listening what others have said here..

If you give group A many many times more than you gave group B (which is a larger group), then you jolly well have very good reason to do so... else you need to differentiate the things you give... life is that simple.. dude :D
 
You keep thinking that other have this "mistaken view" about market projection...

I believe I told you before that it is about acceptance.. you are not listening what others have said here..

If you give group A many many times more than you gave group B (which is a larger group), then you jolly well have very good reason to do so... else you need to differentiate the things you give... life is that simple.. dude :D

Yes, I know about the acceptance; but decisions have to be made with the right information on how the whole mechanism works.

I am prepared to have my stand corrected if necessary, for acceptance of others. No problem on that as this is the democratic process. But certain facts should not be omitted from the process of consensus building.

Goh Meng Seng
 
Yes, I know about the acceptance; but decisions have to be made with the right information on how the whole mechanism works.

I am prepared to have my stand corrected if necessary, for acceptance of others. No problem on that as this is the democratic process. But certain facts should not be omitted from the process of consensus building.

Goh Meng Seng

All this discussion can only be regarded as prelim brainstorming.
How to come to a final conlcusion when we don't even know how much it costs to build a HDB flat?

The Opposition should really stand united on this and get Mr Mah to release the relevant data/methodology.

If he can't, then at least please tell us what are the national security concerns that are forcing him to keep this TOP SECRET.
 
Yes, I know about the acceptance; but decisions have to be made with the right information on how the whole mechanism works.

I am prepared to have my stand corrected if necessary, for acceptance of others. No problem on that as this is the democratic process. But certain facts should not be omitted from the process of consensus building.

Goh Meng Seng


whatever.... may I suggest that you also think about cheap rental of public housing with option to purchase after certain years of occupany... the rental properties can be used as a buffer to control property market prices..... this is probably a better market segment you should look into :D
 
On one hand, Minister Mah says HDB is an investment that Singaporeans could "monetize" but on the other hand, his HDB policies have effectively rule out any meaningful "money making" out of selling HDB flats for downgraders! Sometimes, it is really hard to believe what that the Minister does not know the inherent contradictions that his policies have in accordance to the his policy aim...

Goh Meng Seng
 
On one hand, Minister Mah says HDB is an investment that Singaporeans could "monetize" but on the other hand, his HDB policies have effectively rule out any meaningful "money making" out of selling HDB flats for downgraders! Sometimes, it is really hard to believe what that the Minister does not know the inherent contradictions that his policies have in accordance to the his policy aim...

Goh Meng Seng

MBT is thinking od people with more than one home. If you only own one home, you can't monetize that home without buying a new one. It's not like owning shares or bonds. MBT has been shown to be lacking in principles for not allowing public information, HDB costings. We should not take any of his word at 'cost price'.:D

We must always 'subsidize' MBT's words. In fact, let's leave him out of the equation altogether. Why would you listen or even believe in someone that deliberately with holds pertinent public information from the public? It means he has something to hide. Let him hide it for as long as he can.

BUt let's move on in the meantime.

GMS, do not take policies that reach out to the masses as populist policies. Populist policies are not inherently bad especially in a political and socio-economic climate that has been strnagled by a fascist political party.

I have mentioned many times before, we have to forget all the things that the PAPies have told us through their forked tongues via the 154th if we want to improve the lives of Singaporeans. We cannot take anything that they say or report at 'cost price'. :D

Your initial initiative is a starting point but it lacks width and depth and simplicity to reach to the masses. You are talking to the masses and not to an economics class. You have very little time to reach out to them.

You must realise the larger goals at stake. I believe that you truly believe in what you want to practice BUT I tell you that it will only cause confusion amongst the masses.

There are better alternatives and a few have been alluded to in this thread. Open up your mind to the possibilities BUT first understand the problem carefully and properly.

I also am hopeful that the Alternative Parties will form a solidarity to beat the PAP at the polls. The people need to see a united front for this to happen.

We have talked about Taiwan, Japan and Malaysia and even Indonesia as having broken away from a single-party rule that has ruled for eons BUT we forget that the only way to do so was to have a UNITED FRONT.

Smallish parties fighting individually against a long-standing incumbent like the PAP is highly unlikely going to lead to success for these smaller parties. Consolidate. Look towards solidarity. Have only the leaders meet up for such meetings and do not announce it until polling date is announced.

We have to win the next GE. Wong CUNT Seng has already pledged about 400,00+ PRs and NEW Citizens for the next five years if the PAPies remain in power. The 400,000+ does not include FTs on employment pass or other types of permits for FTs to work here.

Our days as Singaporeans are numbered. You as an Alternative Party up-coming candidate has to understand this. And I urge you to reach out to the other Alternative PArties to consolidate either as a single party or at least to form a solidarityso that the people can see a truly viable alternative government to the PAP.

HAving said all these, remember the theory of Floor Pricing I touched on in the older forum. This theory is valid and robust. While it explains why and how prices can move up it doesn't provide conclusive information on how prices will move downwards in a segmented market. In other words, your theory may not work at all. I am not pouring cold water on you but I want you to look at the alternative views provided and most of all I salute you for seeing the issues at hand and want you to work collectively with other alternative party HEADs to come up with a solutin that all Alternative Parties believe in and will put these initiatives to the people when the GE is called.

Take note that without a united front, Taiwan, Japan, Indonesia and to a certain extend Malaysia will not be in the position they are today. People want change but they NEED TO BELIEVE that the change can happen. And without a united front, it would not have happened there and neither will it happen here.

MERDEKA!!!!!!!!!!!

A united front against the PAP. The aim is MERDEKA!
 
[QUOTE=Goh Meng Seng;422722]I am not going to be populist as someone. ;)

I will state what is best for Singapore in the long run. We will need to suffer just a little bit inconvenience as the market segmentation will allow such drastic change to take place without much heavy impact.

It is up to Singaporeans to decide which pills to take, the blue or the red. Whether it is political suicide for me, I really don't mind as long I stick to what I believe is good for Singapore in the long run.

As a responsible politician, we need to speak the truth, even if it means to be the inconvenient truth. Right from the start of the hazardous "Asset Enhancement Scheme" pushed through by the GCT administration, I have been raising objection to this policy which is seemingly "sweet" but full of poison for our future generations.

But we have come so far from then and now our youngsters are suffering the ills of a policy that was made 20 years ago. If we do not take steps and stand up boldly to point out the flaws of such policy direction, for the next 20 or 30 years down the road, the whole system will collapse.

Asset inflation will outstrip income growth. The wealth and income divide will deteriorate beyond remedy. Our future generations will be enslaved by a system that has no bound for greed and rationale.

I have been warned by many about raising this as an issue because they feel that Singaporeans are not ready to accept the fact that their so call "asset enhancement" is just merely a myth. A myth built on irrational greed.

Winning or losing an elections is just a short term gratifications but a bad policy that goes unchecked will create long term repercussions. You will need brave and courageous men and women to stand up to burst the bubble of myth, no matter how painful it is for many of us. Yes, politically I may not survive, but I just hope that my future generations will survive.
Reality check : At this point in time, you are a NOBODY, not even in the same league as Low Thia Khiang or Chiam . The average voter is just NOT interested in your political career! Please don't talk big!

Goh Meng Seng[/QUOTE]


Hello Ah Seng,

Since you've publicly made this statement, then WHY do you still want to stand as a candidate at the upcoming GE ?? As an Opposition supporter, I would at the very least expect every Oppostion candidate to say that he would be trying his level best to beat his PAP opponent. Since you jolly well know that the average Singapore voter is NOT prepared to accept and cannot understand your highfalutin "morally correct" HDB logic, I think you would be better off joining a civil society whereby you can express your intellectual views on political issues without the need to spend time convincing voters to vote for you in an election. I am quite sure you can be easily nominated by your peers in the civil society circles as a candidate for Nominated MP seat and Mr Marboro Tan and his fellow Ministers would be more than happy to appoint you as Nominated MP. It's a win-win situation for you and Mr Mah : You can debate all you want with Mah to your full satisfaction, and Mah would have a felllow Hainanese for company in Parliament.
 
In 1988 GCB land in Jervois/Tanglin area was offered by CDL for $120psf!!


Private property prices are dependent on public housing prices. It's commonsense economics. Only when public housing prices cross, say, $500k per 4-room flat, can a private 4-room condo price cross $1m. In the days when HDB was on rental policy and it cost $20 per month to rent a 3-room flat, a 2-storey bungalow at Oxley cost less than $50k.
 
Wouldn't reverse mortgage be a simple way to monetize investment

Just use this example. I am 65 and retiring. I bought my 5rm for $70K 25 years ago (fully paid up) and today it is worth $500K. If I sell it and buy another new HDB flat I need to pay levy of $50K. I can buy new 3rm flat in Sengkang for $130K. Math $500K - $50Klevy - $130K new flat = $320K cash.

At 65 years old, I have new fully paid up 3rm flat and $300K in cash is not too bad. After all my children have moved out and wife and I want a smaller place.

Fast forward another 15 years, I am now 80 years old. My 3 rm flat is now worth $300K (today's $), I can reverse mortgage flat for 20 years and get about $400 a month. This will be for 20 years or till I am 100 years old.

Sound pretty good and lots of monetizing here. GMS what do you mean by not being able to monetize. Perhaps I am missing something.

Facts

Media price of 5rm flat $500K --http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedianResalePrices?OpenDocument


Selling price of new BTO 3rm flat in Sengkang - http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/PressReleases/61B5EB4C03E73704482576E70037E37B?OpenDocument




On one hand, Minister Mah says HDB is an investment that Singaporeans could "monetize" but on the other hand, his HDB policies have effectively rule out any meaningful "money making" out of selling HDB flats for downgraders! Sometimes, it is really hard to believe what that the Minister does not know the inherent contradictions that his policies have in accordance to the his policy aim...

Goh Meng Seng
 
On one hand, Minister Mah says HDB is an investment that Singaporeans could "monetize" but on the other hand, his HDB policies have effectively rule out any meaningful "money making" out of selling HDB flats for downgraders! Sometimes, it is really hard to believe what that the Minister does not know the inherent contradictions that his policies have in accordance to the his policy aim...

Goh Meng Seng

I think you might perhaps be misunderstanding what Mr Mah means by "monetize". I think he is referring to unlock the value of your HDB flat. I don't think he means help you make money from your HDB flat (where got so good one?).

The "monetization" policy was a failure. When GCT was still PM, they tried to introduce the concept of reverse mortgages. It flopped badly. The FIs being what they are, tried to fleece customers and hardly anyone took it up. The policy died a natural death with NTUC Income being the last major FI to stop offering reverse mortgages.

Right now, the only way to "monetize" is to sell your HDB flat This of course begs the question of where to live after you have sold your flat.

My thinking is that they are probably trying to make emigration an attractive option for older Singaporeans. Malaysia for example has a silver hair program which seems to be designed to attract Singaporeans who have retired. If you sell your HDB flat, you would have enough to make the deposit as well as buy a modest place to stay. The recent introduction of allowing MediSave in Malaysian hospitals might be an indication of a long term policy of encouraging elderly Singaporeans to leave Singapore and retire elsewhere.

This would then free up housing and other resouces in Singapore which can be allocated to "cheaper,faster,better" FT who can continue to be allowed into Singapore by the thousands to make the MNCs happy.

In one bold stroke, we

1) Export the aging problem
2) Import FT to solve the expensive Singaporean worker problem.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't reverse mortgage be a simple way to monetize investment

Just use this example. I am 65 and retiring. I bought my 5rm for $70K 25 years ago (fully paid up) and today it is worth $500K. If I sell it and buy another new HDB flat I need to pay levy of $50K. I can buy new 3rm flat in Sengkang for $130K. Math $500K - $50Klevy - $130K new flat = $320K cash.

At 65 years old, I have new fully paid up 3rm flat and $300K in cash is not too bad. After all my children have moved out and wife and I want a smaller place.

Fast forward another 15 years, I am now 80 years old. My 3 rm flat is now worth $300K (today's $), I can reverse mortgage flat for 20 years and get about $400 a month. This will be for 20 years or till I am 100 years old.

Sound pretty good and lots of monetizing here. GMS what do you mean by not being able to monetize. Perhaps I am missing something.

Facts

Media price of 5rm flat $500K --http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedianResalePrices?OpenDocument


Selling price of new BTO 3rm flat in Sengkang - http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/PressReleases/61B5EB4C03E73704482576E70037E37B?OpenDocument

If you buy at low price, whether you choose to downgrade or apply for reverse mortgage, naturally you can monetise. What if you buy in at the market peak (example 5 room flat at $700k) and then market crash (market value left $500k)? The CPF fund you have utilised to finance yr hdb purchase will be wipe out. When that happen, not only you are not eligible to apply for reverse mortage, you also cannot downgrade to a smaller unit and worse you lost your CPF money meant for retirement purpose.
 
"Monetise" is a confusing word for many people..

http://www.investorwords.com/6583/monetize.html

monetize

Definition
Converting something into money. It can apply to selling securities in exchange for money, such as when a company sells a bond, and can also apply to charging money for something that was previously free or unprofitable, such as a local business charging customers to park in its parking garage.


it only mean converting something into money..
.. you have something, tangible or intangible
.. you put/charge a value onto it
.. most importantly, there is a market outside that can agree to your value and gives you money for it

the word has nothing to do with whether you make a profit or loss..

:D
 
You cannot use your example to extrapolate to the future. Your case is unique because you bought your flat at COST SUBSIDY which is no longer the case now.

Your children will not be that fortunate, really.

Goh Meng Seng


Wouldn't reverse mortgage be a simple way to monetize investment

Just use this example. I am 65 and retiring. I bought my 5rm for $70K 25 years ago (fully paid up) and today it is worth $500K. If I sell it and buy another new HDB flat I need to pay levy of $50K. I can buy new 3rm flat in Sengkang for $130K. Math $500K - $50Klevy - $130K new flat = $320K cash.

At 65 years old, I have new fully paid up 3rm flat and $300K in cash is not too bad. After all my children have moved out and wife and I want a smaller place.

Fast forward another 15 years, I am now 80 years old. My 3 rm flat is now worth $300K (today's $), I can reverse mortgage flat for 20 years and get about $400 a month. This will be for 20 years or till I am 100 years old.

Sound pretty good and lots of monetizing here. GMS what do you mean by not being able to monetize. Perhaps I am missing something.

Facts

Media price of 5rm flat $500K --http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedianResalePrices?OpenDocument


Selling price of new BTO 3rm flat in Sengkang - http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/PressReleases/61B5EB4C03E73704482576E70037E37B?OpenDocument
 
It would be ok if look solely in this context. But it is not. The claim is HDB is your investment.

Goh Meng Seng

"Monetise" is a confusing word for many people..




it only mean converting something into money..
.. you have something, tangible or intangible
.. you put/charge a value onto it
.. most importantly, there is a market outside that can agree to your value and gives you money for it

the word has nothing to do with whether you make a profit or loss..

:D
 
It would be ok if look solely in this context. But it is not. The claim is HDB is your investment.
Goh Meng Seng

... and the prices have been going up.... if you like this context.. :D

anyway... "HDB is your investment " does not say that you will definitely, stamp and chop, make a profit from your flat... but most people like to assume otherwise
 
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