Give us HDB flats AT COST, not 30 yrs Mortgage Enslavement!

[Glaringly]

This is what I called earlier, a slum district.

Cheap location with cheap housing and cheap after-sales maintenance... for the people who want to pay it cheap and will not get any profit out of it....

totally separated from the other flats.... ie product differentiation.

The value of other flats will not be affected much.

This one can work, but you will be branded cheap if you stay in it.

How many people like it?

I don't get it.

These housing can be as per normal with a premium over location floor etc.. But not those fake market subsidy excuse.

Upgrade can still be considered for these blocks too, the rules are for us to set! It's something new on the table to consider and not some forgone conclusion.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Essentially, you are not segmenting the markets because you did not suggest product differentiations.

Whatever the name (cost price) you call it, you are just asking for Very Big Ang Pao Monies (subsidies/grants) to first time new flat buyers.

All the other voters who are not getting the monies in the near future, will not be happy.

Try telling them to see long-term.. and they will tell you to wait for next election.

HDB markets vs Private property are segmented markets by product differentiation. But market segmentation could be done other than product differentiation. In this case, HDB itself sets the rules on who can buy what. That is market segmentation itself.

This is to secure our future and in the process, inevitably, someone will not get the "fair deal". I will tell you who will not get the "fair deal". Those first time buyers from the period of 1995 till now. Those who have "upgraded" had enjoyed "returns" from the transactions. So be it. Those who have bought their flats earlier, have a fair deal. My father's generation, has a good deal. But that is beside the point. Now if we keep feeding the notion that HDB is an "investment good" as MBT keeps talking about in Talking point, who will be the suckers? Our children and future generations! Many more generations to come!

We have to look beyond our own interests and look at the bigger picture. If we allow PAP to capitalized on the greed of Singaporeans, we are selling off our future generations.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I have watched the Talking Point of Mr. Mah trying to defend his HDB policies. After watching it, I feel very worried about the future of Singapore.

It has confirmed my initial guess of what this PAP government is up to, although I have heard about it from a professor whom might have helped to mold such policy direction.

MBT started of with three main points:

1) HDB flats are for Home Ownership, for Singaporeans "own" their flats. This "assets" you could "sell it and you can keep everything that you made"

2) Extensive Coverage. Over 80% Singaporeans are within this scheme.

3) HDB is also acting as a form of retirement income. Singaporeans can "monetize" their flats, downgrade, rent out... etc. just for retirement financing.

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/03/mah-defends-hdb-policies/

Well, any comments from brothers here? I will comment on his points when I have more time.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[elephanto]

3) HDB is also acting as a form of retirement income. Singaporeans can "monetize" their flats, downgrade, rent out... etc. just for retirement financing.

Goh Meng Seng

This pt 3 is the ultimate cop out for PAP Govt, what aging society, CPF Lite, Minimum sum, old folk's welfare .... CRAP !

No need for old age safety net ..... hold on to your HDB flat, this is yr govt's gift for yr retirement needs, good luck ..... 'monetize' it, we wash our hands off you .....

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

This pt 3 is the ultimate cop out for PAP Govt, what aging society, CPF Lite, Minimum sum, old folk's welfare .... CRAP !

No need for old age safety net ..... hold on to your HDB flat, this is yr govt's gift for yr retirement needs, good luck ..... 'monetize' it, we wash our hands off you .....

Yes sir, that is their ultimate aim and that is why they want the HDB flats to go up and up.

Actually, if you think of it carefully, it is a kind of responsibility transferred. The aging population will be financed by future generations by means of higher flat prices. This is their scheme.

There are more to it. The income and wealth divide will widen between the rich and poor after they amend the Land Acquisition Act in 2007 and removing the Estate duties.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kingrant]

Help! Are we going communist here.?

Capitalists and bourgeoisie like me who don't stay in HDB flats, but in landed prop and pay the bulk of taxes - are you also giving me any rebates? If you don't, then where's the equality? I also have a share in contribution to the reserves, and mind you, we are the top 10% high net worth individuals who pay 80% of income taxes that go to the reserves.

REBATE EVERYONE THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY OVERPAID FOR THEIR FLAT. And I mean everyone. The rebated money will be applied towards the paying down of their mortgage. If there is extra left over, than it goes to their CPF account. This will help prevent run away inflation. At the same time, start selling flats to everyone, including first time home buyers at cost. Legislate that all resale flat sellers must disclose the real cost of their flats to the buyers. that way, there is full knowledge and disclosure, and whether the buyers want to pay the extra price is up to them.

The funds to pay for the rebates will come from the national reserves.

 

[Zombie]

It's something new on the table to consider.....

Currently, HDB gives you grant to help you buy new flats, and they take away some of your profits when you sell. And this has been around for decades.

What GMS suggested is not something new, except that HDB gives you "FULL" grant to help you buy new flats, and take away "ALL" your profits when you sell.

Now, instead of current $40k(?) grant, GMS is probably asking for $150-$250k(?) grant (depending on the flat location)... how would all the others feel?

To be fair, the gov would either
1) let everyone get a share, or else
2) if only a particular group gets it, they be separated from the rest..

It is the same old topic, like frying cold rice over and over again, except people now are giving it new names..

 

[Zombie]

HDB markets vs Private property are segmented markets by product differentiation.

You are mixing it up..... private property are not products of HDB... what product differentiation are you talking about?

Do you also suggest foreign property, a product differentiation from local property?

 

[Glaringly]

What GMS suggested is not something new, except that HDB gives you "FULL" grant to help you buy new flats, and take away "ALL" your profits when you sell.

The header says, "Give us HDB Flat at cost".

What grant and profit are you talking about? And, it's pretty clear that it is not for investment purposes but for a roof over our head.

Why unfair to others? Those who already bought a HDB flat can still look forward to capital gains.

 

[Papsmearer]

Help! Are we going communist here.?

Capitalists and bourgeoisie like me who don't stay in HDB flats, but in landed prop and pay the bulk of taxes - are you also giving me any rebates? If you don't, then where's the equality? I also have a share in contribution to the reserves, and mind you, we are the top 10% high net worth individuals who pay 80% of income taxes that go to the reserves.

haha,Kingrant, are u sure or not? Top 10% pay 80% of the income taxes? I think not. Income taxes are already some of the lowest in the world. And income taxes contribution to national reserves is neglible if at all. Most govt. taxes are hidden. eg. HDB markup/profit, CPF low interest rate, car taxes (ARF, COE), petrol taxes, ERP, etc. Unless u overpaid $300K for your HDB flat to be a tenant, and it went to national coffers, than u can claim to have contributed something to the national reserves. If u staying in landed property (I assume its freehold), than u have paid market rate for it. The HDB has no direct impact on that market.

So, nothing communistic at all. Righting a wrong is not communism. But my question is if you are so rich u can stay in landed property, why the hell are u still here?

 

[Papsmearer]

Currently, HDB gives you grant to help you buy new flats, and they take away some of your profits when you sell. And this has been around for decades.

What GMS suggested is not something new, except that HDB gives you "FULL" grant to help you buy new flats, and take away "ALL" your profits when you sell.

Now, instead of current $40k(?) grant, GMS is probably asking for $150-$250k(?) grant (depending on the flat location)... how would all the others feel?

To be fair, the gov would either
1) let everyone get a share, or else
2) if only a particular group gets it, they be separated from the rest..

It is the same old topic, like frying cold rice over and over again, except people now are giving it new names..

Why go thru all this sham of "grants" along with all the admin overhead to administer it? The HDB overcharge u by over $100K, and than give u back $40K in the form of a rebate, is it not just bullshit? Why don't just sell at cost and end of story?

 

[kingrant]

Oh, many reasons...I already have a PR and a place to live in Canada and I come back now and then to catch up with old buddies, enjoy the local food that I missed, rant..My props will go to my children anyway, so I'm still loooking out for their best interests..Ultimately, I may still return as I havent given up my citizenship. I am also fighting alongside with you for a more just and democratic society and to overthrow a despotic regime thru the ballot box.

So, nothing communistic at all. Righting a wrong is not communism. But my question is if you are so rich u can stay in landed property, why the hell are u still here?

 

[Zombie]

The header says, "Give us HDB Flat at cost".

What grant and profit are you talking about? And, it's pretty clear that it is not for investment purposes but for a roof over our head.

Why unfair to others? Those who already bought a HDB flat can still look forward to capital gains.

financially, it does not matter what name you give it... so long as the amount is the same

the majority of the forummers will argue that a flat is an expense, which is why thread like this is popular..... if you spend $40K lesser for a home, while your neighbour next-door got it for $150k-250K lesser.. that is unfair expenses...

how much more capital gains can you expect?

- Foreign workers will want to rent first till they decide to settle down, convert to citizens and buy it cheap direct from HDB.. furthermore we are cutting down on intakes of foreigners

- Parents will want to sell as soon as their son gets a flat, they can use the proceeds to pay for the new flat and have more than enough to retire...

- Rather than buying an old resale flat at market price of $400k or more, the new couples will rather buy from HDB at $100-$120k(?)

there will be a drop in demands, and people will try to sell whenever possible..

 

[tonychat]

http://singaporealternatives.blogspot.com/2010/03/give-us-hdb-flats-at-cost-not-30yrs.html


I have created a <a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=370393600858">Facebook Group</a> named as above. The reasoning is as below:

Go out and protest lah, talk so much crap here!!!!! look at the Thais!!!!

 

[Zombie]

Why go thru all this sham of "grants" along with all the admin overhead to administer it? The HDB overcharge u by over $100K, and than give u back $40K in the form of a rebate, is it not just bullshit? Why don't just sell at cost and end of story?

you can call it selling a cost

I can call it selling at market price minus profit (in the form of full grant)

both are the same, just the name is different...

anyway, i was just trying to illustrate in my earlier post that what GMS offered wasn't new...

between cost(on the left) to market price(on the right) is a price difference that hdb can "play" with....

HDB put the mark somewhere in between, while GMS wants it all the way to the left...

 

[Papsmearer]

Yes sir, that is their ultimate aim and that is why they want the HDB flats to go up and up.

Actually, if you think of it carefully, it is a kind of responsibility transferred. The aging population will be financed by future generations by means of higher flat prices. This is their scheme.

There are more to it. The income and wealth divide will widen between the rich and poor after they amend the Land Acquisition Act in 2007 and removing the Estate duties.

Goh Meng Seng

No no, this is not their ultimate aim. This higher flat prices happened by careful engineering. the PAP had a 2 fold problem. 1) A national CPF that was quickly accumulating and which represented a huge future liability when they have to be paid out. So how to reduce this amount? 2) How do they enrich themselves while doing something about this problem?

Solution was to release the liquidity floodgates by allowing CPF to be used both for the monthly payment and the down payment. This allowed the HDB to double or triple what they were charging for flats even though the overall costs remained the same. People who would not normally afford to buy these higher priced flats now could do so by dipping into their retirement funds. Therefore, the govt's obligation to its CPF liability was reduced drastically, as the people transferred their CPF money to banks and the HDB.

Secondly, the higher HDB prices had the effect of also causing private property to rise in price. As the HDB elites and the Lee and Kwas are some of the largest property owners in the country, this benefitted them no end.

What they did not foresee was that the dramatic effect that the higher prices on flats had on the cost of living and cost of doing business in S'pore. It was a ripple affect. that is why the PAP was caught by surprised and now ended up increasing the number of FTs drastically just to keep the wages low and reduce the cost of doing business here.

This claim of the govt. using HDB flats as a means of retirement funding is a smokescreen and false. Firstly, when u need to retire, u normally cannot control the time. Lets face it, when you are 65 or older, u have to think about it. But then what if the market is on a slow cycle. Do you cash out your flat at a loss, or at much less than u expect? In fact, people who are non investors or speculators have lost money on sales in the last few years. Do u than wait until the market recovers? When will that be? And if you buy a flat today at $500K or so, addin renos, and add in 20-30 years of mortgage payments, how much do you have to sell it for when u retire? $1 million? $ 1million for a HDB flat? How likely is that. Furthermore, HDB flats are unlike CPF accounts because when u sell it for retirement purposes, 2 people have to live on the net proceeds. Your spouse and yourself. How than does one count on such an unreliable source of retirement funds? If u paid $50K years ago for your flat, maybe u can retire on the proceeds today, but not likely for those who bought 5 years ago or so.

 

[elephanto]

This claim of the govt. using HDB flats as a means of retirement funding is a smokescreen and false

exactly, my suggestion that garment may be using HDB as retirement funding is plausible short-term stop-gap measure BUT definitely unsustainable & only applicable to the few original buyers

...... $ 1million for a HDB flat? How likely is that.

You forgot to mention the remaining lease is ever counting down from 99 yrs to 0, how can prices continue to rise when lease gets shorter & shorter in spite of how fantastic economic growth can lead to asset appreciation .... those cashing out now without buying another at the latest prices are merely enjoying this temporary abberation that is unsustainable ...

 

[Papsmearer]

exactly, my suggestion that garment may be using HDB as retirement funding is plausible short-term stop-gap measure BUT definitely unsustainable & only applicable to the few original buyers
You forgot to mention the remaining lease is ever counting down from 99 yrs to 0, how can prices continue to rise when lease gets shorter & shorter in spite of how fantastic economic growth can lead to asset appreciation .... those cashing out now without buying another at the latest prices are merely enjoying this temporary abberation that is unsustainable ...

yes, u are absolutely right. Although I admire GMS and would vote for him if he ran in my constituency, I am a little concerned that he does not see this simple point and has bought into the HDB flat is a retirement kitty argument. U are quite right in that when the flat gets older, it will be worth less. The owner has to time the sale at the peak of his flat's value, and no one is that good. And even if they sold it at their peak, it probably will notmatch their retirement time frame. hence, they will have to incur a crushing mortgage to purchase another flat. If they downsize to a smaller flat, again they have to time the market perfectly and even worse, they do not know with certainty how much they will receive net. Who wants this kind of headache when they retire?

 

[Papsmearer]

Oh, many reasons...I already have a PR and a place to live in Canada and I come back now and then to catch up with old buddies, enjoy the local food that I missed, rant..My props will go to my children anyway, so I'm still loooking out for their best interests..Ultimately, I may still return as I havent given up my citizenship. I am also fighting alongside with you for a more just and democratic society and to overthrow a despotic regime thru the ballot box.

Thank you for that, we need overseas sinkies for sure. Hope u didn't punish your kids by leaving them here while u are happily in Canada. LOL.

 

[elephanto]

hence, they will have to incur a crushing mortgage to purchase another flat. If they downsize to a smaller flat.... Who wants this kind of headache when they retire?

One seemingly myopic alternative is to rent lah .... then die die protect the cashout windfall as retirement nest-egg & dun be a sucker again ... such an unsophisticated way of renting to death may in all eventuality turn out to be the most savvy.

Won't that be a slap in the face & an ultimate irony to one key pillar of our Singapore Miracle Story " over 80% Home-owning nation " ?!