Do you know mandarin originated from the mongol and the Jin.

[yellowarse]

Do you have the conclusive academic study to this claim?

Off hand, I highly doubt this claim because the written yue language has much fewer resemblance to Tang poems, as compared to today's mandarin written form.

I didn't make those claims; linguists and phonologists studying Chinese linguistics and phonetics did. They looked at linguistic and phonetic shifts of today's dialects and compare it with Old and Middle Chinese. The more shifts, the more recent the dialect. The more conservative, the least shifts, the older the dialect.

While Beijing Mandarin has retained elements of Middle Chinese in its grammar and syntax, in pronunciation it has reduced the 8 tones of Middle Chinese to 4, lost the final plosives (p, t, k), as well the final -m.

The two language groups with the least number of shifts are the Yue and Min groups. Cantonese has retained the 8 tones and final stop consonants, but has lost the initial voiced consonants (voiced b, d, g) found in the Wu group.[SUP]1

1. Ramsey, S. Robert (1987), The Languages of China, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, ISBN 978-0-691-01468-5.[/SUP]

 

[watchman8]

I didn't make those claims; linguists and phonologists studying Chinese linguistics and phonetics did. They looked at linguistic and phonetic shifts of today's dialects and compare it with Old and Middle Chinese. The more shifts, the more recent the dialect. The more conservative, the least shifts, the older the dialect.

While Beijing Mandarin has retained elements of Middle Chinese in its grammar and syntax, in pronunciation it has reduced the 8 tones of Middle Chinese to 4, lost the final plosives (p, t, k), as well the final -m.

The two language groups with the least number of shifts are the Yue and Min groups. Cantonese has retained the 8 tones and final stop consonants, but has lost the initial voiced consonants (voiced b, d, g) found in the Wu group.[SUP]1

1. Ramsey, S. Robert (1987), The Languages of China, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, ISBN 978-0-691-01468-5.[/SUP]

The author is Ramsey Robert. Don't sound Chinese to me... Does this researcher even speak, read and write Chinese and Cantonese?

The truth could be that ancient Chinese have more than 4 tones (if there ever is a unified Chinese language in ancient times), and the modern mandarin has simplified it to 4, while Cantonese is currently at 8 tones. Does this make cantonese the real Han dynasty language?

 

[yellowarse]

Example of 入声 (final p, t, k):

入：

Cantonese - yup
Hokkien - jip
Mandarin - ru (-p dropped)

日

Cantonese - yut
Hokkieng - jit
Mandaring - ri (final -t dropped)

角

Cantonese - gok
Hokkien - gak
Mandarin - jiao (final -k ​dropped)

 

[yellowarse]

The author is Ramsey Robert. Don't sound Chinese to me... Does this researcher even speak, read and write Chinese and Cantonese?

You don't have to be an ethnic Chinese to be an expert on the Chinese language.

S. Robert Ramsey is a renowned Sinologist and linguist from Princeton who has written many papers and theses on the Chinese language and its dialects. He has also written a book, The Languages of China, for laymen:

http://www.amazon.com/Languages-Chi...d=1369891168&sr=1-1&keywords=s.+robert+ramsey

A review of his book: http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/languages-of-china/

And yes, he does speak and write Chinese.

The truth could be that ancient Chinese have more than 4 tones (if there ever is a unified Chinese language in ancient times), and the modern mandarin has simplified it to 4, while Cantonese is currently at 8 tones. Does this make cantonese the real Han dynasty language?

Cantonese actually has 9 tones (6 + 3 stop tones), Middle Chinese has 8. The increase is due to the fact that the Yue languages lost the initial voiced consonants (b, d, g) and added an extra tone to differentiate voiced initial words from unvoiced initial.

The languages of Han and Tang don't exist today, because languages evolve and change over time. All we can say is that some languages/dialects spoken today are closer in pronunciation or structure to those spoken in the Han or Tang dynasties.

Most linguists agree that Cantonese is probably the most conservative Chinese dialect today, retaining many of the features of Old and Middle Chinese. According to one study, the Yulin version of the Guangdong dialect is closest to the Tang language in terms of rhyming pattern, hence probably the best for reciting Tang poetry.

 

[Poomer]

Im teochew, understand a lil. I can only speak hokkien. My gf is hakka but speaks cantonese, and i understand nuts. Personally feel teochew sounds nicest, like sing-song hokkien, after all, we teochew hailed from minnan once upon a time. I would say that hokkien vulgarities are more apt in these parts. At least everyone know what u are scolding them. That said, I always feel that an old lady screaming to you in cantonese is way scarier than if she scolds you in hokkien.

 

[watchman8]

You don't have to be an ethnic Chinese to be an expert on the Chinese language.

S. Robert Ramsey is a renowned Sinologist and linguist from Princeton who has written many papers and theses on the Chinese language and its dialects. He has also written a book, The Languages of China, for laymen:

http://www.amazon.com/Languages-Chi...d=1369891168&sr=1-1&keywords=s.+robert+ramsey

A review of his book: http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/languages-of-china/.

Note that the book is published in the 80s, so you have to wonder where and how he learned the language? HK? How many of Chinese dialects does he know? Has he researched on dialects found in the inner provinces? How many of tang era poems does he know? Can he read the ancient Chinese characters?

And why is it that no Chinese scholar continues with Roberts work?

A book on Chinese language written by a non Chinese and reviewed by non Chinese. It's like Beijing uni researchers to take apart Shakespeare and study the history of European languages.

 

[tonychat]

Do you know mandarin originated from the mongol and the Jin.

who cares!!! just a fucked up language spoken by low class shit ass people.

 

[Liquigas]

Anyone familiar with ancient history know that during the Warring States period in China 2,000 years ago the seven states do not include the southern regions which is today Fujian, Guangdong as well as Zhejiang & Jiangsu which at that time was ruled by the Wu kingdom. The two southern most kingdoms were known then as Nan Yue and Min Yue. Language develop and evolve over the centuries within the respective domains and today we have Mandarin Chinese (and its many variants) spoken in north and south western China (corresponding to the areas occupied by the original seven states) whereas the southern provinces managed to retain their own dialects - Wu, Yue and Min. So it is hard to imagine that Yue, Min or even Wu dialects were used during the Tang dynasty ...

 

[ThugSin]

tonycheebye 屌你老母仆街冚家鏟

 

[yellowarse]

Anyone familiar with ancient history know that during the Warring States period in China 2,000 years ago the seven states do not include the southern regions which is today Fujian, Guangdong as well as Zhejiang & Jiangsu which at that time was ruled by the Wu kingdom. The two southern most kingdoms were known then as Nan Yue and Min Yue. Language develop and evolve over the centuries within the respective domains and today we have Mandarin Chinese (and its many variants) spoken in north and south western China (corresponding to the areas occupied by the original seven states) whereas the southern provinces managed to retain their own dialects - Wu, Yue and Min. So it is hard to imagine that Yue, Min or even Wu dialects were used during the Tang dynasty ...

Of course not. Is Shakespearean English spoken and written today? NO. Likewise, the Tang language is dead, but has evolved into the various dialects spoken throughout China today.

But we can ask and research: which brand of English today comes closest to Shakespearean English - British English, American English, Caribbean English, Canadian English, Australian English, Indian English, or Singlish?

So we can also find out: which dialect group today most closely approximates Middle Chinese?

 

[yellowarse]

Note that the book is published in the 80s, so you have to wonder where and how he learned the language? HK? How many of Chinese dialects does he know? Has he researched on dialects found in the inner provinces? How many of tang era poems does he know? Can he read the ancient Chinese characters?

And why is it that no Chinese scholar continues with Roberts work?

A book on Chinese language written by a non Chinese and reviewed by non Chinese. It's like Beijing uni researchers to take apart Shakespeare and study the history of European languages.

False argument. So a Singaporean Chinese or Russian cannot study Old English or Shakespearean English and become an expert? Only British people can be experts in English? Only ethnic Chinese can study Chinese linguistics?

Nonsense.

 

[jw5]

Whatever we say about the different languages or dialects, can't help but admire those who can speak many languages or dialects well.
Not just simple single words or swear words, but complete coherent sentences that someone else fluent in that language or dialect can clearly understand and respond to.
It's a gift and a talent.

 

[yellowarse]

Whatever we say about the different languages or dialects, can't help but admire those who can speak many languages or dialects well.

It's a gift and a talent.

Like Mike Sui, who speaks pure Beijing Mandarin, American English, Japanese, French and Spanish:

[video=youtube;3dSb6LpkfMg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSb6LpkfMg[/video]

 

[Liquigas]

Whatever we say about the different languages or dialects, can't help but admire those who can speak many languages or dialects well....

One fine example is the tennis champion Roger Federer; he speaks German (native), French and English fluently.

 

[jw5]

One fine example is the tennis champion Roger Federer; he speaks German (native), French and English fluently.

That plus he is an absolute stroke master where it comes to his game.
In my opinion, more so than anyone else including champions from the past.
Life is damn unfair.

 

[Poomer]

One fine example is the tennis champion Roger Federer; he speaks German (native), French and English fluently.

Hes swiss, they have 3 national languages, namely, spanish, german & italian.

 

[yellowarse]

One fine example is the tennis champion Roger Federer; he speaks German (native), French and English fluently.

Federe is a Swiss German, so German is his native tongue. All Swiss learn English as a 2nd language in school.

He picked up his French when he went to tennis school in the French part of Switzerland.

What impresses is his fluency in all 3 languages. A gift definitely.

And he is the most complete tennis player of all time, IMO.

 

[yellowarse]

Hes swiss, they have 3 national languages, namely, spanish, german & italian.

German, French, Italian. Plus English as second language.

A very small indigenous minority speak Romansch.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Note that the book is published in the 80s, so you have to wonder where and how he learned the language? HK? How many of Chinese dialects does he know? Has he researched on dialects found in the inner provinces? How many of tang era poems does he know? Can he read the ancient Chinese characters?

And why is it that no Chinese scholar continues with Roberts work?

A book on Chinese language written by a non Chinese and reviewed by non Chinese. It's like Beijing uni researchers to take apart Shakespeare and study the history of European languages.

these ang mohs even study on those african languages and unknown shit languages.

 

[AlphaLover]

Wat is min nan language? Oh hokkein..the crude n vulger dialect?

You Cantofuck, Hokien and Cantonese spoken here are crude. Hokien and Cantonese spoken in Taiwan and Hong Kong are refined.

If you don't like it, fuck off home to Hongkieland or Guangdongland and shut up.