Do you know mandarin originated from the mongol and the Jin.

[eatshitndie]

Also do not forget tat Canton was the main port of the Tang Empire. Roads there from Chang An should have been well developed. Anyway as i said b4. The tang and other Han chinese from the north went tonthe south n diplaced the natives there. Hence the Tang language was bought into the south. The Tang n other han chinese need not assimilate the native language. Tang language replaced the southern natives. Hence tat is y Tang Poems etc sound better in Cantonese is because it is the closes language to the Tang. Southern languages did not replace the Tang. Its the Tang language replacing the southern languages.

guangzhou (廣州) was established as a prefecture by the han dynasty. similar to chaozhou, it was already a commandery during the qin dynasty. the area was commonly called panyu (番禺). it was formerly part of the nanyue (南越) kingdom, which includes vietnam today. it is not wrong to suggest that cantonese is actually closer to the vietnam tongue, as cantonese is a sinicized version of the ancient viet language. no doubt, it was an important port during the t'ang dynasty as persian and babylonian ships docked there way before the arrival of the portuguese. the persians at one time established a little enclave there during the t'ang dynasty, and actually brought in persian women to start families.

 

[Sideswipe]

Overseas Cantonese should face the fact that China is much bigger than Canton throughout the entire history of China, and there is no conclusive study that said that cantonese is closest to Tang language. A book by an ang moh sitting in USA in the 1980s working without assistance of chinese scholars in china is NOT an authoritative study.

the single conclusive evidence is that Tang poems sound nice in Cantonese ? well, some people said that Tang poems sound more richer and colorful in Hakka than Cantonese. so the Tang language is now in Guangdong.

 

[Sideswipe]

guangzhou (廣州) was established as a prefecture by the han dynasty. similar to chaozhou, it was already a commandery during the qin dynasty. the area was commonly called panyu (番禺). it was formerly part of the nanyue (南越) kingdom, which includes vietnam today. it is not wrong to suggest that cantonese is actually closer to the vietnam tongue, as cantonese is a sinicized version of the ancient viet language. no doubt, it was an important port during the t'ang dynasty as persian and babylonian ships docked there way before the arrival of the portuguese. the persians at one time established a little enclave there during the t'ang dynasty, and actually brought in persian women to start families.

if this is the case. Cantonese is actually a barbarian language, mixed with Vietnamese. Beijing dialect is not a barbarian language because the Jurchen people were descendents from the Warring States.

do you know why many Cantonese words sound similar to Beijing Mandarin ?

 

[The_Hypocrite]

If Cantonese is a barbarian language, it has done quite well as compared to hokkein which is a crude and vulgar language.

if this is the case. Cantonese is actually a barbarian language, mixed with Vietnamese. Beijing dialect is not a barbarian language because the Jurchen people were descendents from the Warring States.

do you know why many Cantonese words sound similar to Beijing Mandarin ?

 

[Sideswipe]

If Cantonese is a barbarian language, it has done quite well as compared to hokkein which is a crude and vulgar language.

i don't disagree. anyway i am not Hokkien. i am Teochew...

do you know why many Cantonese words sound similar to Beijing Mandarin ?

 

[eatshitndie]

if this is the case. Cantonese is actually a barbarian language, mixed with Vietnamese. Beijing dialect is not a barbarian language because the Jurchen people were descendents from the Warring States.

do you know why many Cantonese words sound similar to Beijing Mandarin ?

it's referred to as sinicization, meaning backward or outlying regions that were colonized by the qin were exposed to qin culture and government - giving rise to adoption of new tech, methods and words. it's like we are being "westernized" or "americanized" today with much of the new tech, methods and words coming out of the u.s.

germans in germany are inserting new american words into their vocabulary on a daily basis, especially with technology terms.

ever wondered why teochews, hokkiens and japanese pronounce 五 with the "ngo", "gor" and "go" phonetics respectively, while cantonese pronounce "ngmmm" (which is way off the chart)? the putonghua or mandarin version is "wu" which is not the original t'ang pronunciation. since the japanese started to adopt chinese words mainly during the t'ang era, especially with respect to numerals and other kanji (han) characters, the secret to solving the t'ang phonetic and pronunciation mystery lies ironically with the japanese. since the japs have a different tongue, they adapted t'ang words (written form was passed down from the han era while spoken form had evolved) with jap idiosyncracies and characteristics. for example, the basic numerals: ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, which were adopted from the t'ang. the teochew and hokkien version of 一 (one) is "it" or "ith" with tongue hanging between teeth. the japs cannot hold a single such syllable without breaking it into either "itsu" or "ichi". since "tsu" is pronounced with teeth touching and tongue behind teeth (and not inbetween teeth), it does not apply to "ith". "ichi" will be closer to "ith" with slight gap between teeth. teochew, hokkien and japanese retained some of the original t'ang pronunciations, especially the simple day to day use of basic numerics.

the cantonese pronunciation of 一 (one) is "yiat", or more precisely "nyiat" with a subtle "ng" or "ny" depending on sub-dialect and region in guangdong. such a pronunciation is very namyueish and is not t'ang at all, although much of cantonese had been sinicized centuries ago, making it very distinct and different from vietnamese.

jurchen is more altaic, but it too was partially sinicized due to conquest and influences by the han dynasty.

 

[Froggy]

it's my ambition in my retirement to do a personal journey on the mass migratory routes at the end of the sung and ming dynasties to understand the meaning of mass panic and exodus. . . . . . .

Bro, can call me when you do that. Can have some fun while investigating Dongguan.

 

[eatshitndie]

Bro, can call me when you do that. Can have some fun while investigating Dongguan.

after an exhaustive journey, anything with a bed, backrub, beer and b**bs is good for me. will definitely ping you for that.

 

[Liquigas]

.... southern regions was flooded with the Tang people escaping the collapse of the Tang Dynasty. The natives of those areas were overwhelmed by the Han Chinese going into the area. Many of the natives of the region went into Vietnam and Cambodia. I dont believe that the Tang would assimilate into the culture and the language of the Southern natives. They would just speak the Tang language etc. .... The southern natives were displaced by the Tang people.....

Han Chinese settlers moved south because of famine, war and the cold weather. When they arrived in the southern regions (today Guangdong & Fujian) they did not displace the native inhabitants - the Yue people. In fact there were alot of intermixing and over the centuries the natives embraced Han language and customs and became completely sinified. And because of this intermixing strictly southern Chinese cannot be considered to be of pure Han stock. Note that the ancient Yue people and present day Vietnamese people are related in that they share common ancestors. Yue and Viet are the same written in the Chinese language.

 

[maozedong]

It isn't really speculation that there was migration southwards during Tang dynasty. Chinese linguists could tell the migratory path of the Tang people from the dialects spoken at major cities in the path. They identified Putian (in central Fujian) as the first major settlement point of the Tang people in Fujian. After that, some of these Tang Chinese moved to Quanzhou, Zhangzhou, Xiamen in Fujian and then Chaozhou in Guangdong and then Hainan island. The language spoken in Putian (also called Xin Hua) has been heavily influenced by the Fuzhou dialect. And the language spoken in Quanzhou, Zhanghou and Xiamen (present hokkien dialect) influenced by the Min minorities. Some linguists, probably Teochews themselves, think that Teochew most closely resemble the ancient Tang language because the Chaozhou region was relatively isolated.

But you are right that there was probably no panic mass migration. The Tang Chinese migrated southwards probably for the same reason the PRC Chinese today emigrate to Singapore and Western countries - to seek a better life, over-crowding and too much competition at home. However, given the strong feelings Chinese traditionally had for their hometown in ancient times, life must have been pretty tough for them to want to migrate.

Yes, it is not Shantou. It's Chaozhou. Chaozhou is a true ancient city. And yes, it was known as Hai Yang in the old days. And the city north of Chaozhou is known as Jie Yang. And in the south, there is Chao Yang next to Shantou. So Yang seems to be a common place name there. Shantou was just a fishing village until the 19th century. Also, the Teochew dialect spoken in Shantou is slightly different from Chaozhou. Shantou people like to slang, i.e., talk with a melody. Chaozhou's dialect is flatter, clearer and lighter - much nicer in my opinion, especially spoken by Chaozhou zi nio (maidens). Also, the Teochew spoken in Chaozhou city is slightly different from Singapore's. Over there, they say 万,冠,全, etc. with an extra heavy G at the end. Instead of wan for 万, it is wang.

One 'proof' of the ancientness of the Teochew dialect is the Teochew opera. The Teochew opera is widely acclaimed amongst opera connoisseurs in China, even amongst non-Teochew. Hokkien and Puxian (Putian) operas just aren't as refined as Teochew opera. The gestures in Teochew opera are the most delicate and graceful.
Cantonese opera is also as good as Teochew opera.

Documentary on Chaozhou opera (fast forward to 15:58 to see a traditional Teochew beauty)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpet0EtWl0

Puxian opera:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODk4MTkxNg==.html?f=160035

it's speculative theory until someone gets funded and does an exhaustive scholarly study of the so called migration of "t'ang refugees" from north china to the south. and this should include visits and stay at the many migration routes, rest stops, defensive points, etc. it must also include archaelogical digs to find proof.....
while the north was invaded by jurchens and later mongols in the 13th century, sung survivors find refuge south in mass numbers, and the natural path was through fujian. you will find dozens of sung-era toluo fortifications in fujian today. and the refugees were called hakka, or guest-people. i would also theorize that hakka dialects are surviving tongues of the sung, which closely resembled those of the t'ang.

 

[maozedong]

Some Cantonese like to believe that they are the descendents of the Qin soldiers whom Qin Shih Huang sent to Guangzhou to set up a garrison there. If this is the case, that explains why Cantonese is so different from Hokkien and Teochew. Since the Qin dynasty didn't last long, the Qin spoken language probably didn't have much chance to influence the development of what was to become the Tang language. It also explains the aggressive nature of the Cantonese people - since the Qin people were the most war-like during the warring states. So don't despair, Mr Canto. Qin is more ancient than Han and Tang. So Cantonese is the real McCoy ancient Chinese!

if this is the case. Cantonese is actually a barbarian language, mixed with Vietnamese. Beijing dialect is not a barbarian language because the Jurchen people were descendents from the Warring States.

do you know why many Cantonese words sound similar to Beijing Mandarin ?

 

[watchman8]

Actually much of discussion was triggered by someone claiming that tang era poems sound better in Cantonese, and hence cantonese is most likely the ancient tang dynasty language.

Till now, there is no conclusive proof of this claim. Does tang era poems really sound best in Cantonese? How about Sichuan dialect, chaozhou dialect, shanghainese etc? Who has ever done a comprehensive comparison? A good scholarly study would take at least tens of tang poems and read it out in the various dialects in front of a crowd of Chinese dialect experts, then tally the score.

I don't think anyone has done such a study before, so the claim that Cantonese is the real deal is probably just an overinflated claim by over enthusiastic Cantonese.

 

[maozedong]

many singaporeans feel that cantonese or hokkien or teochew is vulgar or crude because they've never heard formal cantonese, hokkien and cantonese. in some places in guangdong and fujian, court hearings, government meetings, company and bank meetings are conducted in cantonese, hokkien and teochew - and they are anything but crude.

watch ZhangZhou hokkien news in china:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGdnLvBIVgU

listen to chaozhou radio station:

http://tunein.com/radio/Chaozhou-Radio---News-939-s112222/

If Cantonese is a barbarian language, it has done quite well as compared to hokkein which is a crude and vulgar language.

 

[watchman8]

many singaporeans feel that cantonese or hokkien or teochew is vulgar or crude because they've never heard formal cantonese, hokkien and cantonese. in some places in guangdong and fujian, court hearings, government meetings, company and bank meetings are conducted in cantonese, hokkien and teochew - and they are anything but crude.

watch ZhangZhou hokkien news in china:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGdnLvBIVgU

listen to chaozhou radio station:

http://tunein.com/radio/Chaozhou-Radio---News-939-s112222/

Sinkies are offsprings of the low class and poor from china. It will take several more generations to rid the country of the the inherited rough edges. However, the current influx of low class tiongs will continue to average down the standard. Fortunately the new tiongs only speak mandarin.

 

[The_Hypocrite]

I did post a video on a good tvb series to watch. N it was spoken in traditional cantonese. I have also posted a video about hokkein being taught in class n it sounder crude. So i do not believe tat traditional hokkein can b much better.

Anyway I am glad this thread have proven 1 point n tat is Mandarin is not the true language of the Han Chinese. Just a basterdised language use by the Qing dynasty. A Foreign Barbarian tribe. It also proves to the CCP n fucking LKY tat mandarin has nothing to do with being Chinese. FUCK LKY n his speak mandarin campaign.

Ok. I have said my piece now lets get back to proving that Cantonese is the most superior language amoungst all the Chinese dialects.

Thanks all for yr contributions.

many singaporeans feel that cantonese or hokkien or teochew is vulgar or crude because they've never heard formal cantonese, hokkien and cantonese. in some places in guangdong and fujian, court hearings, government meetings, company and bank meetings are conducted in cantonese, hokkien and teochew - and they are anything but crude.

watch ZhangZhou hokkien news in china:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGdnLvBIVgU

listen to chaozhou radio station:

http://tunein.com/radio/Chaozhou-Radio---News-939-s112222/

 

[Orion]

Good theory. Fact is nobody knows for sure. Interesting to note that Cantonese like to think that they are special amongst the Chinese. I have come across many Cantonese outside of mainland china who thinks that Cantonese are direct descendants of Qin and that the yue language is above mandarin in all aspects.

While there are many famous Hakka people, they are also the most pitiful because of their associated with the word "Hakka". Hakka is not a single ethinic group. They are actually consist of different group of han chinese with no genelogy records (either losing it due to war or simply because they are from different parts of china/ freed slaves). That is why Hakka in different provinces of China, speaks their own dialect. A Hakka will never understand another Hakka from another region, just like a Cantonese can never understand Teochow all of a sudden.

In the past, Emperors will forcefully moved population from the north to colonize the South. That occurs many times. While they are known as the Hakka, some groups of Hakka did become localized. Only when a region is populated, then the term "Hakka" come into use. The irony is that the locals may be a past Hakka.

That is why it is important to trace a clan genealogy origin through the clan genealogy origin. Or else most Han Chinese are like Hakka, unless they have uncommon surnames which makes their origin easier to trace.

What I am trying to say that it is wrong to assume that Hakka is closest to the Tang Language. Hakka is a broken clan, with too many languages. It impossible to know if they are Han Chinese, Xianbei, Jurchen, Mongolians or the Qiang.

 

[watchman8]

While there are many famous Hakka people, they are also the most pitiful because of their associated with the word "Hakka". Hakka is not a single ethinic group. They are actually consist of different group of han chinese with no genelogy records (either losing it due to war or simply because they are from different parts of china/ freed slaves). That is why Hakka in different provinces of China, speaks their own dialect. A Hakka will never understand another Hakka from another region, just like a Cantonese can never understand Teochow all of a sudden.

In the past, Emperors will forcefully moved population from the north to colonize the South. That occurs many times. While they are known as the Hakka, some groups of Hakka did become localized. Only when a region is populated, then the term "Hakka" come into use. The irony is that the locals may be a past Hakka.

That is why it is important to trace a clan genealogy origin through the clan genealogy origin. Or else most Han Chinese are like Hakka, unless they have uncommon surnames which makes their origin easier to trace.

What I am trying to say that it is wrong to assume that Hakka is closest to the Tang Language. Hakka is a broken clan, with too many languages. It impossible to know if they are Han Chinese, Xianbei, Jurchen, Mongolians or the Qiang.

I think bulk of current Chinese population is so intermixed that it is meaningless to try to trace the lineage. China is a big piece of land where people move around and inter marry over thousands of years. It is not like Hawaii which is a small group of isolated island.

In china, people still trace the descendants of Confucius, which I thought is rather stupid if one understand genetics. A person's great grand kids only carry one eighth of his DNA, and after twenty generations the DNA is almost unnoticeable.

So it may be more meaningful to focus on the now, rather than to waste time tracing roots or planning for the wealth of one's great great grand kids.

 

[Sideswipe]

ever wondered why teochews, hokkiens and japanese pronounce 五 with the "ngo", "gor" and "go" phonetics respectively, while cantonese pronounce "ngmmm" (which is way off the chart)? the putonghua or mandarin version is "wu" which is not the original t'ang pronunciation. since the japanese started to adopt chinese words mainly during the t'ang era, especially with respect to numerals and other kanji (han) characters, the secret to solving the t'ang phonetic and pronunciation mystery lies ironically with the japanese. since the japs have a different tongue, they adapted t'ang words (written form was passed down from the han era while spoken form had evolved) with jap idiosyncracies and characteristics. for example, the basic numerals: ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, which were adopted from the t'ang. the teochew and hokkien version of 一 (one) is "it" or "ith" with tongue hanging between teeth. the japs cannot hold a single such syllable without breaking it into either "itsu" or "ichi". since "tsu" is pronounced with teeth touching and tongue behind teeth (and not inbetween teeth), it does not apply to "ith". "ichi" will be closer to "ith" with slight gap between teeth. teochew, hokkien and japanese retained some of the original t'ang pronunciations, especially the simple day to day use of basic numerics.

the cantonese pronunciation of 一 (one) is "yiat", or more precisely "nyiat" with a subtle "ng" or "ny" depending on sub-dialect and region in guangdong. such a pronunciation is very namyueish and is not t'ang at all, although much of cantonese had been sinicized centuries ago, making it very distinct and different from vietnamese.

jurchen is more altaic, but it too was partially sinicized due to conquest and influences by the han dynasty.

Taiwan Hakka language researcher 邱從容 said that the Hakka dialect is the origin source of the Chinese language. all Chinese dialects are simplified versions of the Hakka dialect. 邱從容 believed that Hakka was the closest dialect to the Tang language because of the Japanese factor.

http://big5.am765.com/xw/xwfl/tw/200903/t20090306_434329.htm

 

[Sideswipe]

Some Cantonese like to believe that they are the descendents of the Qin soldiers whom Qin Shih Huang sent to Guangzhou to set up a garrison there. If this is the case, that explains why Cantonese is so different from Hokkien and Teochew. Since the Qin dynasty didn't last long, the Qin spoken language probably didn't have much chance to influence the development of what was to become the Tang language. It also explains the aggressive nature of the Cantonese people - since the Qin people were the most war-like during the warring states. So don't despair, Mr Canto. Qin is more ancient than Han and Tang. So Cantonese is the real McCoy ancient Chinese!

think older Chinese dialects are more crude. those archaic Chinese dialects should sound horrible ? the dialects naturally will evolve over time to a more refined spoken form to be more appealing to the peoples. Cantonese is presumably the most ancient Chinese dialect therefore Cantonese must be the roughest and most unrefined of all Chinese dialects...

 

[GOD IS MY DOG]

aiyah................Mandarin originated from Hindi and Tamil combined............