Crumbling of Singapore?

[Leongsam]

Just watch 30 seconds in each clip and compare. It should give you some sense of why I feel FMH lacks "that certain something".

Both look better with snowflakes.

 

[Fook Seng]

I've decided there is no end to this debate. It's like debating religion.

The consensus amongst the PAP haters seem to disallow comparisons with other countries. This was evident from the get go in the first couple of pages of this thread.

All I can say is that until you have lived elsewhere, you won't appreciate what the PAP has done for the country and the speed at which they have done it.

The same goes that if you haven't been living in this country recently, you will only have an image of a society frozen in time. True, the spanking new MRT stations and rolling stocks had been model of sophistication especially without the crowds. We had been proud of it once, but today it is to be avoided if you have a choice unless it is off-peak. Many visitors actually travel during these off-peak periods. I know many people prefer the buses as they can have a seat a major part of their journey. If the recent dislodged claws issue did not surface, many of us who commute by cars, not to say those who do not live here, would not have known that signalling problems causing minutes of delay have been a daily occurrence. Even those riding the trains daily would probably have brushed off the 5 to 10 mins delays as a scheduling fault but poor maintenance is at the centre of all this. How I hope we could be like the Japanese who apologise even for a minute delay? If you look at the general congestion, the high cost of living and the frequent flooding, something we did not have we had once proudly used to differentiate ourselves from our more backward neighbours even though unfairly because of the difference in geography, you know there is a general deterioration in environment. The ubiquitous rubbish bin found in every HDB lift lobby is now no more, taken away for fear of terrorism. So where do you drop your litter? 30 years ago you could buy a 3-bedroom 1700 sq ft freehold condo unit using one salary (in fact using just the CPF) on a 10-year loan. Today, a couple of the same economic status needs two salaries to pay off a 30-year loan for a leasehold 4-room HDB flat. No wonder inhabitants feel things have worsen a lot and not the rosy picture that you paint, frozen in time. Maybe the saying that the pasture is greener on the other side of the fence applies to those who live here and also to those who have moved abroad. For those who have opted to stay put probably understood this and that the only way their life can improve is to strive for change. Actually I agree with you on one important thing and that is whether it is the PAP in charge or the WP ( I use the same opposition party that you have used because they are more likely to ride on whatever good organisation work that had been done in the past than with some other party) the problems of governance will still be there. But there is one important difference. After 50 years in power, the PAP finds it very difficult to change their fundamental premise on governance, a new party will not find it easier to start something more relevant with the times. In fact, there is only one thing I hope to see and with it, the rest will just fall in place. I hope to see a change in the political system where there is proportional representation of the voters' choice and that this representation should be fully played out in a parliament that truly makes the laws unlike today where the decision is in the hand of just a small minority. Such a system will ensure political stability whoever takes power as any decision made has a clearcut support of the majority of the population and any fundamental constitutional change has a true two thirds support of the populace and not just an enhanced powered 55 to 60%. For all you know, I might even vote for the party I detest if the candidate is the best in my area. Today many people treat the election as a referendum of the political system. It can only get worse for the ruling party.

 

[Fook Seng]

good points. Will these Dubai "miracles" last? and do they benefit the people? or are they just for show?

Personally, I think the Dubayyans have been taken for a ride by their consultants, even with no certainty how the money invested could be recovered. The early days consultants and builders made their fortunes and left but the later contractors don't get paid when the money ran out. Because of the debt issue, most of Dubai today is owned by Abu Dhabi. It was a case of outside consultants riding on the dream of the Dubayyans making it big. Everything has to be the largest, the tallest, the grandest. The consultant's best trick - give the client what they want. I am not sure whether the same thing is being done by consultants and advisers to our Temasek and SGIC to invest in bad investments. I distinctly remembered in 2008 when the big boy countries turned their heads away, Singapore, Korean and Saudi sovereign funds were positioned to take stakes in rotten banks and we complied.

 

[Leongsam]

The same goes that if you haven't been living in this country recently,

I'm there for at least 4 months a year plus I grew up there. I then compare my experiences in Singapore with the infrastructure that I have to put up with for the other 8 months.

 

[Fook Seng]

very few americans change autos within 3 years. many own theirs for over 8 years. sinkies change autos more frequently than americans. spend a week driving on both sides of the ocean and you will observe the difference.

You agree the cost of owning a car is much lower in the States? Gas is about half our prices here which is heavily taxed. Some people here renew their COE after the 10-year licence and pay a 50% higher road tax just to avoid paying the import duties and ARF that comes with a new car. And you don't find cleaners or a polise constable driving their own cars here. In fact car taxes here are designed to eliminate the marginal owners. I think you would agree with me on this otherwise I have to dig up some figures online to illustrate my point?

 

[brocoli]

if you dont know the levies, taxes, etc a SG household pays, you dont know much.

in other threads, I have mentioned abt such levies, taxes..etc. why shd I waste my time and keep mentioning them to ignorant people and young kids who have not faced responsiblities of running a household? they will learn when they grow up.

if you still dont know go read other threads

so this how you argue,,,, pathetic,,,,

@least point me to the post.... the in the mean time please respond to post #217 ... i put the link here

http://singsupplies.com/showthread.php?106287-Crumbling-of-Singapore&p=908579#post908942

Because it goes to the root of why a society must be helped again and again.Because by helping to uplift the society you are indirectly helping yourself.Yes,yes yes,self interest through public interest.You may be at the bottom of the totem pole today but if you live in a welfare society your children may rise to the top.Likewise your billions do not guarantee that your second and third generation are equally capable.So life goes on with its rotation.

The gist of the matter is a welfare society give everybody an opportunity.

this is absolute rubbish.... didnt we already give every1 almost free education... didnt they all start on the same line...

Nice-Gookm, you may have read a lot of history books and can throw out a lot of facts but you know nothing of human nature....
I notice that alot bout history students
giving poor people something for nothing dun motivate them to work hard....
inequality is the greatest motivation of all

Yup. She looks slow-witted. To be sure that comment was uncalled for. My point is that she might be able to keep their attention but I doubt she can influence a room full of old men.

[video=youtube;5gElDGNks6s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gElDGNks6s&feature=related[/video]

To be fair not all PAPzis ladies is crap. Compare that to her counterpart, Penny Low, where one can detect vitality, intelligence and clear thinking.

[video=youtube;Nez_nUXrnII]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nez_nUXrnII[/video]

Just watch 30 seconds in each clip and compare. It should give you some sense of why I feel FMH lacks "that certain something".

actually .to be fair to mee har, that was her debut.... penny already been an MP for some time....

 

[Unrepented]

Please tell us, is there a difference between "inequality" and being "inequitable"?

...........

inequality is the greatest motivation of all


..............

 

[Fook Seng]

After 50 years in power, the PAP finds it very difficult to change their fundamental premise on governance, a new party will not find it easier to start something more relevant with the times.

correction: a new party will find it easier to start something ......

 

[brocoli]

Please tell us, is there a difference between "inequality" and being "inequitable"?

inequality is not inequitable,,,,

inequality is a neutral word

 

[Fook Seng]

I'm there for at least 4 months a year plus I grew up there. I then compare my experiences in Singapore with the infrastructure that I have to put up with for the other 8 months.

When you are here do you live the life of an active worker or a retiree? When you ride the train at 10 am or 3 pm, the crowds are much different and so are the shops. Although the Christmas lighting on Orchard Road is very nice, I avoided it on Christmas' Eve because of the crowds. If you read my postings on the other threads I am one of the few who do not believe that the grass is necessarily greener on the other side. But there are definitely many areas that make living abroad easier than living here and that had attracted many emigrants. I only hope we can have just a little of those desirable things adopted here in Singapore.

 

[Fook Seng]

inequality is not inequitable,,,,

inequality is a neutral word

Inequality is a very strong word. It can mean the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots" and this could lead to a rebellion e.g. People Power rebellion on Edsa Avenue and the Arab Spring all over North Africa. I don't want to see it happening in Singapore. Please find something less violent to motivate. I can retire anytime I want. You have a long future ahead of you.

 

[brocoli]

Inequality is a very strong word. It can mean the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots" and this could lead to a rebellion e.g. People Power rebellion on Edsa Avenue and the Arab Spring all over North Africa. I don't want to see it happening in Singapore. Please find something less violent to motivate. I can retire anytime I want. You have a long future ahead of you.

inequitable implied unfairness.... Inequality is used in math and sciences.... you make of it what you will.....

the politics of envy is to blame.... the have-not blaming earth and heaven except themselves for their fate...

I mean motivate to work harder and be more compeitive... not try to steal from others.

 

[Leongsam]

Nice-Gookm, you may have read a lot of history books and can throw out a lot of facts but you know nothing of human nature....
I notice that alot bout history students

All his facts have not helped the debate. I had to ignore all the sidetracking about LKY and how he screwed his Malaysian counterparts and the rude remarks directed towards me plus other irrelevant ramblings about the history of Singapore so that I could concentrate on the issue at hand.

The issue isn't whether LKY is a Devil or an Angel. It isn't whether some PAP ministers are arseholes. It isn't about undeserving elites vs the have-nots.

It's about whether or not the government's perceived lack of care for the disadvantaged and some infrastructure hiccups means that the country is crumbling.

I believe a laissez-faire system would best serve Singapore while most of the participants here seem to want even more of a nanny state. That's pretty much the crux of the whole thread.

 

[Leongsam]

When you are here do you live the life of an active worker or a retiree? When you ride the train at 10 am or 3 pm, the crowds are much different and so are the shops. Although the Christmas lighting on Orchard Road is very nice, I avoided it on Christmas' Eve because of the crowds. If you read my postings on the other threads I am one of the few who do not believe that the grass is necessarily greener on the other side. But there are definitely many areas that make living abroad easier than living here and that had attracted many emigrants. I only hope we can have just a little of those desirable things adopted here in Singapore.

I'm there on business. If I have an appointment at 9 am. I have to take the train at 7.30 am. If I have no appointments, I'll avoid the rush hour.

However, regardless of how bad singaporeans perceive the train service to be, I have more confidence of getting to where I want to go on time in Singapore compared to when I take the tube in London. The breakdowns there are more frequent and strikes often cripple the system for weeks. I'm also a lot more wary of black plastic bags lying around and sinister looking middle eastern or paki passengers who look like suicide bombers.

In Singapore, my biggest worry is that the guy or girl next to me will fart. It stinks out the whole carriage. The trains in London are just as crowded during the rush hour but there is far less flatulence. It could be the difference in diet or it could be that Singaporeans are genetically more gassy.

 

[brocoli]

All his facts have not helped the debate. I had to ignore all the sidetracking about LKY and how he screwed his Malaysian counterparts and the rude remarks directed towards me plus other irrelevant ramblings about the history of Singapore so that I could concentrate on the issue at hand.

The issue isn't whether LKY is a Devil or an Angel. It isn't whether some PAP ministers are arseholes. It isn't about undeserving elites vs the have-nots.

It's about whether or not the government's perceived lack of care for the disadvantaged and some infrastructure hiccups means that the country is crumbling.

I believe a laissez-faire system would best serve Singapore while most of the participants here seem to want even more of a nanny state. That's pretty much the crux of the whole thread.

yes exactly these lazy irresponsible bummers want freedom but dun wan the responsible that come with it....
freedom has a price...

they wan their cpf money .... but when they finish., they will ask the govt for welfare and handout......

the problem with PAP is that they have become too big and have a hand in every aspect of the life, economy and all that ....
we need a smaller govt not a bigger 1..,...

Ron Paul 2012 !!!!

 

[Fook Seng]

In Singapore, my biggest worry is that the guy or girl next to me will fart. It stinks out the whole carriage.

At least you admit that in Singapore, a lot of your personal space is being intruded. I travelled several times in London. Trains might be a bit old but I had at no time experienced maintenance problems that delayed the tube for 5 hours. Strikes are another matter and it had nothing to do with the design or maintenance of the network. In Paris, however, again nothing to do with the train system itself, I had encountered cheats, somebody who disabled the ticketing machine at the Louvre Station and they sold dud tickets that later brought you a heavy fine. But that is social problem.

 

[Fook Seng]

inequitable implied unfairness.... Inequality is used in math and sciences.... you make of it what you will.....

the politics of envy is to blame.... the have-not blaming earth and heaven except themselves for their fate...

I mean motivate to work harder and be more compeitive... not try to steal from others.

You cannot be a politician. If you think like that - to each his own, you will lose your deposit. Don't stand for election. Don't even advise whoever is standing. Please.

 

[Leongsam]

At least you admit that in Singapore, a lot of your personal space is being intruded. I travelled several times in London. Trains might be a bit old but I had at no time experienced maintenance problems that delayed the tube for 5 hours.

If you worry about personal space, you're not going to like Tokyo. As for maintenance problems. I'm sure they aren't ongoing. There'll be hiccups and then things get better. These sorts of problems can occur anywhere. People try to save money and they realise it's more costly to skimp on maintenance. It's not a long term problem

 

[brocoli]

You cannot be a politician. If you think like that - to each his own, you will lose your deposit. Don't stand for election. Don't even advise whoever is standing. Please.

I am just a keyboard warrior...... socialist front never replied my email to apply for membership....... how to be politician liddat???

IF i am politician would I dare to make fun of glenda and WP now that they are so powderful.... and slammed nicole seah zehzeh somemore

you see politician have to lie... whereas here I can say whatever I wan ... dun have to be a hypocrite.... but my points damn low....

goh meng seng never understood you either be forummer or politican ... dats why he is epic failed politican....

I pick being a forummer anyday

My dedication to the cause of defending sound PAP policies and explaining these policies to the ignorant masses also deserves financial compensation in the form of a research grant to enable me to further improve the platforms for spreading the word.

some of it is sound.... most of it is crap.... especially com care and Public assistance... just give them their CPF.... dun be begger please

If i am a foreigner, i will envy Singapore and Singaporeans, that is what i gathered from many foreigners - from 1st world countries.

Then, i asked, why not you settle down here - since you envy so much and since our government readily welcome you with open arms.

they say no...

citing the following reasons:

= no freedom of speech
= no welfare

despite lower taxes.

if they need welfare then good riddance... gthe last thing we need is more foreign leeches when we already have too many here

lower taxes is also another pap propaganda. do they dare say what constitute taxes in SG and state lower than whose tax?

general statements given out by the pap must not be taken as gospel truth

general statements from TracyTan866, no numbers or statistics to back it out....maybe she is innumerate

One-third of HDB households have a car, 5 % have more than one cars. You know the amount you have to pay for import duties, ARF, COE and road taxes. 85% live in HDB flats and 90% of them own their flats. Another 10% live in private housing that they owned. All of them pay property tax on these. These are big ticket items. There is a 7% GST on every product and service that you consume whether you are rich or poor. In addition, 16 to 20% of your income goes into CPF. Because of the above, the price of every good or service that you consume has a pass through cost related to property that the business is done in, the wage cost of the person who plays some part in the sale of that good or service, the cost of transport that conveys the good or service to where you buy or use them. TT is right. Don't just look at headline tax figures. Now you know why the Singapore Goverment accumulates so much budget surpluses.

if they can afford cars considering that cars are like 5 times more ex than anywhere else....10% can live in private housing... considering the crazy property prices here, they must be doing pretty well

how much does the bottom 20% pay ,,, almost nuthing

refer to this http://singsupplies.com/showthread....Times-Singapore-sits-moodily-atop-wealth-pole

To be disgruntled about getting $80,000-100,000 a year, you would have to be unhappy about being in the top 28.37 per cent.

This excludes residents earning $20,000 or less and are therefore not taxed.

 

[TracyTan866]

Personally, I think the Dubayyans have been taken for a ride by their consultants, even with no certainty how the money invested could be recovered. The early days consultants and builders made their fortunes and left but the later contractors don't get paid when the money ran out. Because of the debt issue, most of Dubai today is owned by Abu Dhabi. It was a case of outside consultants riding on the dream of the Dubayyans making it big. Everything has to be the largest, the tallest, the grandest. The consultant's best trick - give the client what they want. I am not sure whether the same thing is being done by consultants and advisers to our Temasek and SGIC to invest in bad investments. I distinctly remembered in 2008 when the big boy countries turned their heads away, Singapore, Korean and Saudi sovereign funds were positioned to take stakes in rotten banks and we complied.

Thanks for the insight. Hope that GIC and TH have learnt from their past mistakes