Crumbling of Singapore?

[Nice-Gook]

Re: He Planned All These

They (garment & its people) will not change for you or change because of you.

.

Mr.Brown ,are you being case specific?That we have to contend with a PAP government that refuses to change?

 

[zhihau]

I'm already planning the next reincarnation of sammyboy.com with a format that will encourage a more "alfresco cafe" ambiance

ahh... nice, i like those "alfresco cafe" ambiance, all i need to do is sit back and relax with a nice cuppa

good job Sam

 

[Fook Seng]

Many poor people voted for the PAP too with the hope that the govt would soften its approach towards freeloaders and lazy good-for-nothings.

You have figures many poor people voted for PAP?

 

[Leongsam]

You have figures many poor people voted for PAP?

A whole stadium full. It was caught on youtube.

 

[Fook Seng]

A whole stadium full. It was caught on youtube.

First of all, how do you know they were poor people? How would PAP know? Secondly, how would you know they voted for PAP? Thirdly, the crowds at Opposition rallies were by far larger. Does it mean there were many more voters for Opposition and their votes were not counted?

 

[Leongsam]

First of all, how do you know they were poor people? How would PAP know? Secondly, how would you know they voted for PAP? Thirdly, the crowds at Opposition rallies were by far larger. Does it mean there were many more voters for Opposition and their votes were not counted?

Size of crowds means nothing at all. If you judged based on crowd size, the opposition would have won by an 80% landslide.

The PAP rallies were ghost towns.

Could you please read my posts carefully before responding. You're missing a vital element.

 

[TracyTan866]

Re: He Planned All These

They (garment & its people) will not change for you or change because of you.

How do you know they wont change?

 

[TracyTan866]

First of all, how do you know they were poor people? How would PAP know? Secondly, how would you know they voted for PAP? Thirdly, the crowds at Opposition rallies were by far larger. Does it mean there were many more voters for Opposition and their votes were not counted?

Sam likes to make general statements without facts. Dont let him infuriate you

 

[freedalas]

Based on the amount of time the most vocal of the govt critics spend in this forum, there's precious little time left for even the basic human functions such as eating, shitting, sex and sleeping. If you REALLY are doing social work, I really feel sorry for the organisations or individuals you purportedly help.

However, the internet has the marvelous capability to expand your horizons, add hours to the day, add zeros to your bank account, subtract years from your age and kilos from your weight. On the internet, you can be anything you want to be and that includes "social worker".

If you really want to make a difference, get out of this forum and concentrate on making your mark in the real world. Don't waste your time here. This forum is not going to change lives. Nobody save a handful of eccentric keyboard warriors read the stuff that's posted here anyway.

Mr Leongsam, I'm not trying to win an argument here, not for this post anyway. Even if I win this argument, it would only be a hollow victory as it will not help the many disadvantaged out there in S'pore, for what they face are really insurmountable odds in a place where the Govt hardly doing anything to help them. Unlike other posts where I take pot-shots at you for some entertaining moments, this post is seriously different. For those of us who are involved in social and volunteer work of one kind or another, we can truly see the extent of poverty and hardships right here in S'pore amidst the beautiful skyline of Marina Bay that camoflauges all these. You had often remarked that such people would be able to get out of such dire situation if they work hard and smartly. Believe me, many of had tried but sadly for one reason or another, they had not succeeded. Others are simply in too bad shape to try to even break out of the poverty circle. The Govt has announced aid of various sorts to these groups of people, but the reality is that the qualifying criteria are so stringent that many still fall through the cracks, a phenomenon that even PAP MPs like Denise Phua and Halimah admitted.

Besides being hands on at volunteerism work proper, many of us also feel we ought to raise awareness of the impoverished conditions of many S'poreans that do not benefit at all from the GDP growth numbers. We hope to do so with various platforms one of which is this forum you host. Hopefully more will know of their plight and somehow do their bit since the Govt is not doing theirs.

You're likely to retort what I've said, but it doesn't really matter, not for this post as I've said. I believe that there are enough forummers here who will better appreciate the real situation of many S'poreans who are already born disadvantaged or fallen or bad times, and yet all the Govt does is to bring in the YOGs the F1s etc of which the ulitmate aim is to enrich their government linked companies since it is they that provide all related business services for such events.

 

[Leongsam]

Besides being hands on at volunteerism work proper, many of us also feel we ought to raise awareness of the impoverished conditions of many S'poreans that do not benefit at all from the GDP growth numbers. We hope to do so with various platforms one of which is this forum you host. Hopefully more will know of their plight and somehow do their bit since the Govt is not doing theirs.

You're likely to retort what I've said, but it doesn't really matter, not for this post as I've said. I believe that there are enough forummers here who will better appreciate the real situation of many S'poreans who are already born disadvantaged or fallen or bad times, and yet all the Govt does is to bring in the YOGs the F1s etc of which the ulitmate aim is to enrich their government linked companies since it is they that provide all related business services for such events.

Your cause is noble. I once thought like you. However, having experienced a variety of political systems first hand and seen the welfare state model functioning up close, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't work. No matter how much money you throw at the underprivileged, there will always be a class of people who invariably make personal choices that keep them in the poor house.

I have personally sponsored a family in South Auckland to help them through tough times. They were $8000 in debt and couldn't pay their bills and had their electricity cut off. I cleared their debt for them and helped them plan a budget to avoid going backwards again.

Two years later, they were $20,000 in debt. This time I told them to go to hell.

Financial support from me did help short term by easing the symptoms (the $8000 debt). However, it did not cure the underlying disease which was the fact that couldn't stop blowing their money on things they could not afford. Their brains simply weren't wired to live within their means. I could have given them $3000 a month and they'd still be in debt.

Many of the so called poor and destitute will have a similar story to tell. One of my ex staff in Singapore is pretty much penniless. We still keep in touch. He's hit rock bottom. However, in 1994, his walk up apartment went en-bloc and he had 1.5 million dollars in the bank. What happened to all the money? He spent it all. If the govt gave him another 1.5 million tomorrow, he'd end up broke again in 5 years because that's the way he is.

Life will never be fair and society will never be equal. There are those who can take $20,000 and turn it into $2 million through courage and hard work and there will be those who have $2 million fall into their laps and they'll end up broke. We're all different.

Ideals are good but they have to tempered with a dose of pragmatism and a grasp of reality.

 

[freedalas]

Your cause is noble. I once thought like you. However, having experienced a variety of political systems first hand and seen the welfare state model functioning up close, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't work. No matter how much money you throw at the underprivileged, there will always be a class of people who invariably make personal choices that keep them in the poor house.

I have personally sponsored a family in South Auckland to help them through tough times. They were $8000 in debt and couldn't pay their bills and had their electricity cut off. I cleared their debt for them and helped them plan a budget to avoid going backwards again.

Two years later, they were $20,000 in debt. This time I told them to go to hell.

Financial support from me did help short term by easing the symptoms (the $8000 debt). However, it did not cure the underlying disease which was the fact that couldn't stop blowing their money on things they could not afford. Their brains simply weren't wired to live within their means. I could have given them $3000 a month and they'd still be in debt.

Many of the so called poor and destitute will have a similar story to tell. One of my ex staff in Singapore is pretty much penniless. We still keep in touch. He's hit rock bottom. However, in 1994, his walk up apartment went en-bloc and he had 1.5 million dollars in the bank. What happened to all the money? He spent it all. If the govt gave him another 1.5 million tomorrow, he'd end up broke again in 5 years because that's the way he is.

Life will never be fair and society will never be equal. There are those who can take $20,000 and turn it into $2 million through courage and hard work and there will be those who have $2 million fall into their laps and they'll end up broke. We're all different.

Ideals are good but they have to tempered with a dose of pragmatism and a grasp of reality.

Thanks, Mr Leongsam for sharing your experiences. It's rather insightful, helps us to be more wary when trying to help others. Also appreciate your point on dose of pragmatism and grasp of reality. Will share that with my group of volunteers and associates. Nonetheless, I hope you will accept the fact that there are people who genuinely wants to strike out on their own or revive their previous status, but circumstances just don't facilitate them. Some of such circumstances are created by the govt. My group of friends and associates will continue to help them break out of the circle as much as we can. As I said, this is a serious post and I had benefited from our exchange. But for other posts bro, I will continue to take your on, just to pass time and have a little fun, need to relieve stress lah, bro.

 

[zhihau]

Ideals are good but they have to tempered with a dose of pragmatism and a grasp of reality.

Sam, that 100 bucks you gave has been put to good use, fully invested and the poor & sick still get to benefit from the dividend gained

 

[TracyTan866]

Many retirees voted for the PAP. You are right. They deserve it.

I foresee many things we chided the pap for will see positive changes when LKY dies. For example, I heard from the grapevine that many ministers support minimum wages for Singaporean workers. That's a step in the right direction as any Singaporean who is willing to work hard must be able to support his family with minimum standard of living. As it stands now, many singaporeans, even though they work a full day's job (some even holding two jobs) are living poorly. But the minimum wage concept was off the table because lky was against it.

Minimum wage issue is likely to be resuscitated when LKY passes on.

Likewise pap may change drastically when LKY dies.

Nothing seems to flourish under the huge banyan tree

 

[Leongsam]

Some of such circumstances are created by the govt.

Give me a specific example of a particular set of circumstances created by the PAP which caused the downfall of a particular individual. I'd be interested to see why the govt is solely to blame and how the outcome would have been different had the WP or SDP or NSP been in charge of Singapore.

As far as my life is concerned, I owe a lot to the PAP. All the opportunities I grabbed were directly or indirectly attributable to PAP policies. A few notable examples :

1) They gave me a good education.
2) They attracted MNCs by giving them 10 year tax breaks. This policy created my first job.
3) EDB helped immensely when I set up my own business and directed me to funding sources which I did not know existed.
4) Their sound management of the Sing dollar enabled me to cash out of the country when the time was right.

 

[Fook Seng]

Size of crowds means nothing at all. If you judged based on crowd size, the opposition would have won by an 80% landslide.

The PAP rallies were ghost towns.

Could you please read my posts carefully before responding. You're missing a vital element.

There are so many things in your posts that do not make sense to me. You seemed to imply that the government need not improve the welfare of the people and if the people find the going tough they could bloody well leave the country. I didn't find it worth my while to rebut such a senseless argument. I was just responding to your suggestion that the full stadium was indicative of the support, particularly the poor people's support for PAP. I tried to show how ridiculous it was by pointing out that opposition rallies had been even larger and you agreed with me. Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

[TracyTan866]

There are so many things in your posts that do not make sense to me. .

I agree with you. Sam is just arguing just to irritate you. I dont think you are here to argue or irritate. So, just ignore his post and move on to other posts

 

[Leongsam]

You seemed to imply that the government need not improve the welfare of the people

I do not believe it is the government's role to provide a safety net by the creation of a welfare state.

I do believe that a govt should improve the welfare of the people by creating opportunities for those who want to make a success of their lives. In this aspect, the PAP has been very successful. I am grateful for their efforts.

 

[Fook Seng]

I do not believe it is the government's role to provide a safety net by the creation of a welfare state.

I do believe that a govt should improve the welfare of the people by creating opportunities for those who want to make a success of their lives. In this aspect, the PAP has been very successful. I am grateful for their efforts.

This is what I call binary thinking. If it is not to control the population growth with Stop at Two, then it means to increase the population from 3 to 5 millions in 10 years. If it is not each man for himself, then it is a welfare state. I don't think any forummer here is proposing such a welfare state that you suffer nightmares about. In fact someone was giving an example of increasing an assistance level from $300+ per month (a number so small that I could not even see it clearly let remember the exact amount) to something like just $400. Does that tantamount to a welfare state handout? Does the Government really think that no one warrants such an assistance? This same amount was given to every CPF holder to get their votes and it is taxpayer's money. This is the pittance that we are arguing about, not your welfare state.

 

[brocoli]

Re: He Planned All These

The reason that the pap gives to save for rainy days because we are vulnerable is a perennial politician lie to overtax their citizens

you keep saying overtaxed, do you know how stupid you sound when Singapore have 1 of the lowest tax rate.... and do you know how more than half the population do not pay any income tax

Yes, LKY is a master at twisting facts, giving excuses and deception

you talking about yourself

From the posts here, you can sense that many forumners here are involved in caring for the poor, aged and the sick.

now you gotch 6th sense and think every1have 6th sense too ...bravo.....

Am I missing something?...if people cannot expect their government to care for them,why the heck do we need a government?

Hey,governments are not private entities who are managing their grandfathers monies.Governments are custodians or trustees of our monies.

if every expect their government to care for them, then who is doing the caring?? every1 is waiting for the government

Sam likes to make general statements without facts. Dont let him infuriate you

you are the only 1 doin that .... you infuriate me

I agree with you. Sam is just arguing just to irritate you. I dont think you are here to argue or irritate. So, just ignore his post and move on to other posts

advices you should give for your post....


TT, you can actually make me see PAP in a goot light with your lousy crappy opinion... you are the most sucessful troll ever in any forum I ever come across

 

[TracyTan866]

Re: He Planned All These

you keep saying overtaxed, do you know how stupid you sound when Singapore have 1 of the lowest tax rate.... and do you know how more than half the population do not pay any income tax

do you know what constitute taxes? it's more than income tax. if you look at all the levies and taxes in SG..Singaporeans pay a lot of taxes. It's you who dont know that we are paying a lot