Crumbling of Singapore?

[red amoeba]

The present pap leadership is incompetent and clueless. What we are seeing are the results of previous pap leaders' achievements. they are riding on the goodwill of previous pap leaders and many older Singaporeans are still garteful. But we must be objective and call the present pap what they are. If we dont hold the present pap on a leash, they may just destroy everything we have built.

this will be too strong a statement to make.

 

[Fook Seng]

...let's hope something happens in 2016

You are not looking unworthy version 3, are you?

 

[red amoeba]

Yes, uncontrolled economic growth can cause huge income disparity. Economists know that this is not good for a country. Good income distribution is wise...that's not what the pap believes

lets be objective, you did receive u-save, rebates and stuff.

 

[TracyTan866]

You are not looking unworthy version 3, are you?

I am an optimist...I see PAP changing soon or pap will be changed in 2016 or 2021

 

[TracyTan866]

lets be objective, you did receive u-save, rebates and stuff.

???

comparing to what I paid for my COE, property tax, income tax, airport travel tax, water conservation tax, road tax, car registration fee, toilet bowl levy, petrol tax, GST, etc, how sigbnificant is the rebate I got?

yes, let's be objective and tell the govt it cant bluff Singaporeans that it has done well by returning us pittance of what it taxed us...

 

[TracyTan866]

this will be too strong a statement to make.

maybe strong to you...but it sums up my experience with the way the pap governs...after visiting the poor, the sick and the aged.

so shd i tell them my true experience and feelings or dilute them to appease the pap?

 

[freedalas]

???

comparing to what I paid for my COE, property tax, income tax, airport travel tax, water conservation tax, road tax, car registration fee, toilet bowl levy, petrol tax, GST, etc, how sigbnificant is the rebate I got?


yes, let's be objective and tell the govt it cant bluff Singaporeans that it has done well by returning us pittance of what it taxed us...

As the former Deputy Speaker of Parliament Tan Soo Khoon once remarked on increasing taxes and then giving rebates : "It's like breaking a man's legs first, and then give him the crutches"

 

[red amoeba]

maybe strong to you...but it sums up my experience with the way the pap governs...after visiting the poor, the sick and the aged.

so shd i tell them my true experience and feelings or dilute them to appease the pap?

you are right on the count that we need to hold the government accountable.

but don't forget, 60% of the population returned them to government - of which 90% of the seats are contested.

you are saying 60% of the population are grateful to them? Or you are saying 60% of them are oldies?

This election has been a watershed year, it is up to them and this bunch of politicians to manage the country. The shadow of LKY is fading and even him cannot postpone the inevitable if the chap with scythe comes calling.

and when that time comes, hopefully his son can fully do what he needs to do. Perhaps even he is mired in certain old-school principles that require his successor to do. But to say they are totally incompetent is incorrect.

 

[Leongsam]

You are too kind to Sam...Looking at his posts, I dont think he is playing the devil's advocate. he is either stubborn or lost or...

On the contrary. I know exactly how Singaporeans feel about their government and I understand where you're coming from. After all, I've been there.

However, I view things from a different vantage point because I've actually lived through the LKY era, the GCT era and now the LHL era. I experienced the race riots, Indonesian confrontation, the curfews which closed schools and businesses [which almost bankrupted my family] and I've now ended up in a situation where I can view Singapore from abroad and compare with the countries that many Singaporeans actually want to emigrate to in order to get away from the PAP! :p

I could spend hours tearing the PAP to shreds just I can spend hours defending them. It all depends on how you want to view their achievements... as a powerless victim swept along by the faceless tide of materialistic progress or as an observer watching a country achieve so much out of nothing.

 

[TracyTan866]

As the former Deputy Speaker of Parliament Tan Soo Khoon once remarked on increasing taxes and then giving rebates : "It's like breaking a man's legs first, and then give him the crutches"

Exactly...we are not so naive as to be blind to the pap's wiles...thanks to the internet, it's getting more difficult for the pap to hookwink Singaporeans. They are so used to employing deception and not telling the whole truth that, with the presence of internet, they are now very much on the defensive. If they still choose not to be truthful and are stuck in their old concept, they will be the past soon.

The ball is in the pap's court

 

[red amoeba]

maybe strong to you...but it sums up my experience with the way the pap governs...after visiting the poor, the sick and the aged.

so shd i tell them my true experience and feelings or dilute them to appease the pap?

this is why i said, the government have to manage the software properly. There will be certainly a group of underprivileged in the society that either fell of the treadmill or could not even step on it to try from the beginning.

it is everywhere in each country - from rich US , Japan to Australia.

The point is, how to ensure they also get to share some benefits so that these group of people don't come together to make trouble - like we see so often in China.

PAP is not doing enough- thats what i am saying - but it is different from saying they are not doing at all.

 

[Nice-Gook]

However, there's a limit to how far this can go. It buys time but it's not a solution. It's like cancer treatment. You hope to extend life so that you're still around when a better drug comes along.

The govt is hell bent on giving Singapore a fighting chance of surviving as long as possible. That's why it is obsessed with accumulating assets, spending billions on defense yearly, frantically building infrastructure and doing whatever it can to increase the country's odds of survival for as long as possible. That, in a nutshell, is the primary role of any govt. Welfare, showing a kind face etc are all secondary.

We can only speculate.

Sam,hope you realize you scored--right into your own goal again.Why?

Because you are talking about a nation inflicted with cancerous survival.Sort of fire fighting.Any nation that firefights cannot be thriving at the same time.Even if we go by your own logic that fighting now for future survival cannot be thriving.Because survival is primary and thriving is secondary.

A nation only thrives during peacetime.

Which begets the question,are foreigners brought into Singapore to fight our enemies?Why would they need to do that?Would you migrate to NZ if you haveto fight Aussies for future survival?

Does any of your statements remotely make any sense?

 

[TracyTan866]

you are right on the count that we need to hold the government accountable.


you are saying 60% of the population are grateful to them? Or you are saying 60% of them are oldies?

i wld say:

1. some are beholden
2. some are ignorant
3. some are grateful
4. some are afraid

but this 60% will shrink and if the pap makes wrong moves and wrong policies, the shrinkage will be fast and furious

 

[freedalas]

you are right on the count that we need to hold the government accountable.

but don't forget, 60% of the population returned them to government - of which 90% of the seats are contested.

you are saying 60% of the population are grateful to them? Or you are saying 60% of them are oldies?

This election has been a watershed year, it is up to them and this bunch of politicians to manage the country. The shadow of LKY is fading and even him cannot postpone the inevitable if the chap with scythe comes calling.

and when that time comes, hopefully his son can fully do what he needs to do. Perhaps even he is mired in certain old-school principles that require his successor to do. But to say they are totally incompetent is incorrect.

I tend to agree with u that calling them totally incompetent is somewhat strong. But if u know where Tracy is coming from where many are left behind by the PAP policies, u would be able to understand why she feels so strongly against the PAP. And there are many out there who is like TracyTan. My personal view is not so much a question of competency but rather that the PAP is now completely motivated by greed. Greed in the sense of enriching the reserves at all costs (which means spending as little as possible out of the reserves as well). As a result, all policies made by the PAP be it for business objectives or social objectives take reference from this goal of accumulating more and more reserves. The whole PAP mindset is that now, sadly.

 

[TracyTan866]

you are right on the count that we need to hold the government accountable.

This election has been a watershed year, it is up to them and this bunch of politicians to manage the country. The shadow of LKY is fading and even him cannot postpone the inevitable if the chap with scythe comes calling.

and when that time comes, hopefully his son can fully do what he needs to do. Perhaps even he is mired in certain old-school principles that require his successor to do. But to say they are totally incompetent is incorrect.

I think LHL is a good man..but he is a poor leader. he wont last when LKY is gone. That's sad..he shdnt even be PM now. let the best man be PM and we shd be ok

 

[sleaguepunter]

Taken from wiki:

Manpower

[TABLE="class: infobox"]
<tbody>[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16.5 years of age (voluntary)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18 years of age, 22 - 24 month period[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1,292,471, age 18–49 (2005 est.)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]934,317, age 18–49 (2005 est.)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]71,600 (incl. 39,800 conscripts)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

er.. that figure included malays rite? the numbers of malay conscripts in SAF do not correspond to national race ratio. so the numbers from wiki not entirely accurate. of the malays friends i have, only one serve in the infantry in NSF but now i oready posted to the Reserves yet he have not even been given one SAF100. His status is pending, in a few yrs he will reach 40. This is how pap govt distrust them.

i still maintain officers must be regulars only, likewise the NCOs. like u said, some ppl dont have the natural abilities, so get rid of them as they are unsuitable to be a leader. So having 3 years to access, those unsuitable can be bust down to the ranks and those not happy with the arrangement can quit.

conscripts since no need to take on extra responsiblities of being an officers or NCOs, then training will be straight forward.

 

[TracyTan866]

this is why i said, the government have to manage the software properly. There will be certainly a group of underprivileged in the society that either fell of the treadmill or could not even step on it to try from the beginning.

it is everywhere in each country - from rich US , Japan to Australia.

The point is, how to ensure they also get to share some benefits so that these group of people don't come together to make trouble - like we see so often in China.

PAP is not doing enough- thats what i am saying - but it is different from saying they are not doing at all.

Yes, until a govt cares for the least and the poorest in the country, it is not a good govt.

The pap is far from caring for the poor, the sick and the aged. The pap has always been a champion for big businesses and for the rich at the expense of the poor and that's where it has alienated itself from the people. The saddest part is the pap leaders still wonder why singaporeans are not grateful to them

 

[TracyTan866]

I tend to agree with u that calling them totally incompetent is somewhat strong. But if u know where Tracy is coming from where many are left behind by the PAP policies, u would be able to understand why she feels so strongly against the PAP. And there are many out there who is like TracyTan. My personal view is not so much a question of competency but rather that the PAP is now completely motivated by greed. Greed in the sense of enriching the reserves at all costs (which means spending as little as possible out of the reserves as well). As a result, all policies made by the PAP be it for business objectives or social objectives take reference from this goal of accumulating more and more reserves. The whole PAP mindset is that now, sadly.

Well said. Thanks

 

[Leongsam]

Sam,hope you realize you scored--right into your own goal.Why?

Because you are talking about a nation inflicted with cancerous survival.Sort of fire fighting.Any nation that firefights cannot be thriving.Even if you go by your own logic that fighting now for future survival cannot be thriving.Because survival is primary in thriving is secondary.

It would be great if the environment was benign but the it's a sad fact that Militant Islam is a cancer which can suck the vitality out of any nation. That's why it needs to be aggressively countered in whatever way possible.

Cancer is treatable and even curable so nobody should give up hope. As long as there is still life, there's a future.

However, your statement that a nation only thrives during peacetime is rather naive. The USA made its biggest strides of progress during the cold war era. The Cuban Missile crisis made the Americans more determined than ever to dominate space and this lead to the moon landing in 1969.

In the SEA context, Singapore reaped huge benefits from the vietnam war.

 

[red amoeba]

I tend to agree with u that calling them totally incompetent is somewhat strong. But if u know where Tracy is coming from where many are left behind by the PAP policies, u would be able to understand why she feels so strongly against the PAP. And there are many out there who is like TracyTan. My personal view is not so much a question of competency but rather that the PAP is now completely motivated by greed. Greed in the sense of enriching the reserves at all costs (which means spending as little as possible out of the reserves as well). As a result, all policies made by the PAP be it for business objectives or social objectives take reference from this goal of accumulating more and more reserves. The whole PAP mindset is that now, sadly.

i take the example of treadmill...reality is the speed on the treadmill is getting faster and faster, more and more will slip off and fell on the ground. Inevitable trend in growing economy / capitalism.

the debate is then, should we slow the treadmill to pick up these stragglers or we should continue running and have some sort of aid to help those get back onto running. PAP is doing the second one...they assumed they could administer band-aid to those who fell off and they can be sent to continue running.

However, as the speed increase, and as more fell off, more than band-aid is needed. And PAP does not want to go down the path of welfarism. But i reckon, it will be some time down the road that certain degree of welfarism will be introduced...