Chinese Nationlist troops rescued the British troops

[Dinkley]

Chiang was the lesser evil compared to Mao. He did massacre the Taiwanese nationalists but the numbers killed is far below than those killed by the cultural revolution. He brought Taiwan to where it is today, a developed country with good infrastructure. Taiwan could have been richer than Singapore, if not because of its lack of official status as a country.

 

[Ramseth]

May i ask why didn't you chastise the russians for being so worthless that they could lose to the japs despite being 100x bigger? I doubt the tsar was over thrown cos of the lost to japan.

Just simply admit it. You're biased against the chinese both nationalist and communist or whatever. Then that'll be it.

I'm not Russian. I may know something and comment something on Russians but as a non-Russian. For Chinese matters, I get passionate, not biased, because I'm Chinese. How can I be biased against Chinese when I'm Chinese and pro-Chinese and rooting for a strong China and strong overseas Chinese communities to grow even stronger the west?

History is something that can't be changed. It already happened. But it's prone to be twisted just to feel good. I'd rather the German way of facing it, feel bad once and for all, let the ghosts rest and move forth, than the Japanese way of twisting it to keep feeling good, pretending to see ghosts from past.

 

[manokie]

Both Nationalists and Communists were in extraordinary times.. Given the same circumstances, Europeans/African/Americans will have done the same things.

However, one thing quite obvious is that Chinese factions don't work together for the better good of the country

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

I'm not Russian. I may know something and comment something on Russians but as a non-Russian. For Chinese matters, I get passionate, not biased, because I'm Chinese. How can I be biased against Chinese when I'm Chinese and pro-Chinese and rooting for a strong China and strong overseas Chinese communities to grow even stronger the west?

History is something that can't be changed. It already happened. But it's prone to be twisted just to feel good. I'd rather the German way of facing it, feel bad once and for all, let the ghosts rest and move forth, than the Japanese way of twisting it to keep feeling good, pretending to see ghosts from past.

oh please spare us that line of reasoning . Okay firstly to compare china to germany during ww2? Germany was the aggresssor and also the perpetrator of murdering jews up to the millions, they attacked various countries. In essential they caused thousands or millions of deaths for their neighbours. They were told to face their war crimes and nothing else. To put china in the same manner as germany obviously is way off tangent since china was never the aggressor in these circumstances. You are clearly delusional.


Btw there's no need to take a self righteous stance about facing up to the ghosts of the past and using other cliches. You're not even a citizen of china, in essential i doubt you're even fit to speak for them.
No wonder sifu calls you self-righteous

I think the ppl of china and taiwan have already throughly studied that era and have put it behind. I mean they still have people alive during that time period and fought in the numerous wars. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You see all that commentary from you wasn't even neccessary.

 

[Sideswipe]

I think the ppl of china and taiwan have already throughly studied that era and have put it behind. I mean they still have people alive during that time period and fought in the numerous wars. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Does "put it behind" mean continuing distorting history ( CCP ) or return truth to history or we don't care anymore.
Has Chinese communist party ever admitted the truth that nationalists fought 80% of Sino-Japanese war, what I know CCP official statement is - we thanks KMT for their help in assisting CCP in war of resistance against Japan.

For KMT, it is pointless talking about that era history anymore.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Does "put it behind" mean continuing distorting history ( CCP ) or return truth to history or we don't care anymore.
Has Chinese communist party ever admitted the truth that nationalists fought 80% of Sino-Japanese war, what I know CCP official statement is - we thanks KMT for their help in assisting CCP in war of resistance against Japan.

For KMT, it is pointless talking about that era history anymore.

I admit I'm not very familiar with the fight bet the nationalists and communist. I was more concerned with the type of condescending tone that ramseth used on crtisizing the entire china Ccp and nationalists alike. Then his not very sincere explanation about comparing Germany with china. His excuse that all his critiques are supposed to expose watever weaknesses china has and not hide it doesn't hold water too.

Anyway the pt is china was under going a civil war on top of the war with japan. and of course the country was already weakened by the fall of the Qing and ruined by the colonial powers. Isn't this correct? How in the he'll can china ss a country be expected to fare well in the war? It's like mocking an athelete that was injured has family problems and inadequate training for not doing well

 

[cheowyonglee]

without the US help, Mao Communist will not even survive!!!

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[Ramseth]

I admit I'm not very familiar with the fight bet the nationalists and communist. I was more concerned with the type of condescending tone that ramseth used on crtisizing the entire china Ccp and nationalists alike. Then his not very sincere explanation about comparing Germany with china. His excuse that all his critiques are supposed to expose watever weaknesses china has and not hide it doesn't hold water too.

Anyway the pt is china was under going a civil war on top of the war with japan. and of course the country was already weakened by the fall of the Qing and ruined by the colonial powers. Isn't this correct? How in the he'll can china ss a country be expected to fare well in the war? It's like mocking an athelete that was injured has family problems and inadequate training for not doing well

I see. I do apologise Chinese-to-Chinese for having sounded too condescending and self-criticial of our own kind for the period of downfall. I apologise for my tone and language. As I've said that you're too sensitive, now I realise that I've been too insensitive too.

 

[Liquigas]

Chiang knew that in the long run the Communist unde Mao was a greater enemy compared to the Japanese. The Japanese population, then as in now, is only 10% of China's. Also, China ia a huge country and when the capital was moved from Nanking to Chungking, there was little that the Japanese infantryman can do but to move south to attack SEA countries.

Chiang agreed to join forces with Mao to fight the Japanese only after he was kidnapped by the Young Marshal. After the end of WW2, the Nationalist continued their fight with the Communist but eventually lost the civil war on the mainland mainly because the Chinese people (mostly dirt poor) supported Mao and who see the Nationalist as corrupt, elitist and incompetent .....

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

I see. I do apologise Chinese-to-Chinese for having sounded too condescending and self-criticial of our own kind for the period of downfall. I apologise for my tone and language. As I've said that you're too sensitive, now I realise that I've been too insensitive too.

Hi it's good that you saw your tone wasn't very fair to the chinese and i'm glad you have apologised. Cheers.

 

[cheowyonglee]

Chiang knew that in the long run the Communist unde Mao was a greater enemy compared to the Japanese. The Japanese population, then as in now, is only 10% of China's. Also, China ia a huge country and when the capital was moved from Nanking to Chungking, there was little that the Japanese infantryman can do but to move south to attack SEA countries.

Chiang agreed to join forces with Mao to fight the Japanese only after he was kidnapped by the Young Marshal. After the end of WW2, the Nationalist continued their fight with the Communist but eventually lost the civil war on the mainland mainly because the Chinese people (mostly dirt poor) supported Mao and who see the Nationalist as corrupt, elitist and incompetent .....

Just think, after the war, alot of industries in China were destoryed or damaged.Lack of food, and finanical was at that time in deep problem.What Chiang taking over was just a big piece of damaged China after the Japanese surrendered.And those poor Chinese farmers were made more poor due to the war.And as the war had already used up on most Nationalist resources and financial restrained , alot of local officials were taking bride.At that kind of time and enviroment, you can't do much but had to do things slowly at a time.Those who dare to say Chiang was corrupted, please use the brain to think hard.What can you do if you were Chiang at that time???

Before the Nationalist can recover from the war, the Communist started to wage a war the the Nationalist troops by taking over the Northern China.Chiang had to fight back of course.
With Mao under the order of Stalin to make China a Communist state, Mao started to accuse the Nationalist of corrupted and useless, and started to brainwash those poor farmers how bad Nationalist government was and brainwash the poor uneducated farmers of the greatness, the fairness, the democratic and the no corrupted communist system.So, one by one the poor farmers started to believe in Mao and join forces with the Mao Communist.Mao even promised them a democratic China then the dictator Chiang China.


Now just look back at history, what did Mao did after Chiang retreated to Taiwan island???Is China now more decmoratic???Freedom of speech?alot of party or just one communist party???Who started to be more dictator???Mao or Chiang???Who preserve the Chinese culture more?Mao or Chiang???Mao started.... China culture revolution that killed alot of educated teachers, religion peachers, churches, temples, school... destorying accesstor tomb... alot alot.He even order the killing of Ling Biao, whom helped alot in defeating the Chiang best troops.Alot alot of bad things can be said on Mao.And the moral infest in most China Chinese now can be seen by how the China done on food, enviroment and also their way of thinking.All these is caused by Mao and the Communist.

Really sad... because China can be a great country if Chiang Nationalist ruled China.At least the moral of the China can be more better then today.

 

[Liquigas]

We will never know whether the KMT will do a better job had they won the civil war. The fact was that the poor peasants at that time 'bought' the egalitarian ideas that the CCP were promoting. The poor have for years resented Chiang and his cronies, the rich, the powerful esp the landlords. So the call for equality with ideas of equal economic, social and civil rights for all people was very strong and the general population just supported it!

 

[cheowyonglee]

We will never know whether the KMT will do a better job had they won the civil war. The fact was that the poor peasants at that time 'bought' the egalitarian ideas that the CCP were promoting. The poor have for years resented Chiang and his cronies, the rich, the powerful esp the landlords. So the call for equality with ideas of equal economic, social and civil rights for all people was very strong and the general population just supported it!

Yeah i agree that the poor supported the Communist but but... because mainly they were uneducated to thinkAnd also, they were made more poorer by the war and not because of Chiang government.

But anyway, if you guys look back at history, Mao did not helped the poor farmers after he won Chiang Nationalist in the mainland.He made them more suffering...

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[Jah_rastafar_I]

to cheowyonglee did u know this was also the same case with lenin and the russians. Prior to lenin coming to power remember how the peasants were ruled by the tsar and they realled resented him. Thus they overthrew him and put lenin in power but it turned out lenin was even worse than the tsar.


The details of how they over threw the communist govt in the ussr or russian are hazy to me but i still recall the toppling of their statues especially in the scorpion song wind of change.


I do recall that almost all communist countries really treated their citizens like slaves. Many many examples but i once has a teacher from eastern europe that was a communist country and she told me she didn't suffer and led a rather care free life.


It is said that the only way a communist country can work is if the leaders of that country are like jesus. The leaders have to be almost god-like in their character which is impossible. Total power corrupts absolutely. That's why a system like the US is much better since the power is not held by 1 single man.

 

[Ramseth]

Prior to lenin coming to power remember how the peasants were ruled by the tsar and they realled resented him. Thus they overthrew him and put lenin in power but it turned out lenin was even worse than the tsar.

The city of Leningrad was re-renamed back to St. Petersburg.

The city of Stalingrad was renamed again to Volgograd.

What do you think the Russians think of Lenin, Stalin and communism?

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

The city of Leningrad was re-renamed back to St. Petersburg.

The city of Stalingrad was renamed again to Volgograd.

What do you think the Russians think of Lenin, Stalin and communism?

Didn't i write in my 2nd last post what the peasants thought of lenin? Therefore you are merely ecohing what i have written.

 

[cheowyonglee]

文章提交者：kinking

我前段时间也听到几位老者的话。

他们说虽然以前国民党时期虽然中国他们穷，但是大家都是穷开心。

我又想到以前我看宋美龄的记录片，我乡下种了一辈子地的外婆亦正好在旁边，她大字不识几个，几乎都看不看电视报纸，听到声音后走过来，居然认得出宋美龄，还称蒋夫人，画面中出现蒋中正后，她又跟我讲这是蒋先生，一幅肃然起敬的样子。

这两件事情让我非常感慨。后来我看了一些历史方面的资料，讲一下我的感受和思考。

首先说下其实蒋介石在大陆时期，是非常民主、亲民的，譬如他和宋美龄经常到公园里去野餐，而且公园里也不戒严，与民同乐。在重庆时期，蒋宋有次在到某处野餐，有一队小兄妹正巧路过此地，蒋宋见他们长的可爱，便唤来，其中男孩子叫做康国雄，后来蒋宋还认他做干儿子。他晚年回忆说：“蒋介石没有架子，很喜欢问老百姓生活方面的问题。”

现在常认为说，蒋和国民党失去大陆的原因之一，是不得贫苦百姓农民的心而至。而我则认为，致使国民党失败的原因，当时的一些大资本家目光短浅才是原因之一。当年国民党打败日本后，曾著手接收原先沦陷区的民营企业和一些抗战时期疲弱的民营企业为国营，结果此举遭到了这些资本家的反对，他们认为抗战八年自己资本尽失，好不容易胜利企业却被国家接收了，这是“劫收”，纷纷倒戈，譬如当时最大的民族资本家荣德生，这个曾在民国初年曾撰文写中国之最大威胁在于苏俄的人此时也倾向中共，当时上海的一些资本家甚至还秘密帮中共提供医药用品。

其实当时国家疲弱，急需恢复生产，政府有条件接收民营企业是件利于国家未来的大好事。我们可以看到中共建政初期，中国在一段时间内确实个方面生产恢复、经济增长，这就是因为中共延续国民党政策，并且变本加厉全面实行国营化。很多资本家非但没赚到，还成了阶级敌人。像荣德生一家，他的后人荣智健只好跑去香港再开公司。

再看当时的中国，八年抗战胜利、台湾光复、中国为世界五强之一、创办联合国、迈入宪政，每一样都是值得民众称赞的事情，若说贪污祸国，蒋经国、任显群、陈诚、俞鸿钧等等都是广受人民称赞的好官，现在中共社会的贪污犯不要太多，何以不倒？甚至在上海打老虎时期备受争议的第一夫人宋美龄，其身后在美国仅仅留下12万美圆的存折。其实宋家也没错，黄河以北被共军占领，上海物资紧张，做生意的人自然是有利就图，所以扬子公司囤货，加上蒋经国、宋美龄等处理不够圆滑，结果招致民怨。这一点，宋家也犯了前述当时资本家目光短浅的通病。

所以就算民心不支持国民党，也不大可能倾向当时勾结苏联霸占东北的中共。甚至当时四川大后方等地的一般百姓，直至抗战胜利都不知道世界上还有中国共产党，何谈民心所向？还有土改，1927年国民政府就在五省实行了二五减租，中共后来只是模仿而已，并且在内战激烈的1946-1949年期间，四川也在困难重重下实行了二五减租。

所以当我听到我外婆、几位老者的话；看到本论坛上有篇文章讲共产党拍旧时电影，举国民党旗进入农田，农人回家兴奋相告国民党要回来了的事例；又如中共执政后，大量贫苦百姓离开中国大陆等等，让我不禁产生假设，就是相对而言，国民党的支持者反而是贫苦大众；而那些资本家，就如楼主所言，只要能做生意，谁当政都无所谓。当时国民党的政策让他们觉得没办法做生意了，所以倾向中共，所谓“农村包围城市”之说，在当时而言实在可疑，倒是“资本家倒戈共产党”比较有事实依据。