Breaking: Tan Jee Say & Ang Yong Guan to join SPP

[metalmickey]

You need to first define what your "people" and "level" means. I presumptuously assumed your "ppl" meant supporters as it would be inane to think WP actually has a voice in Sammyboy, but from this post, your definition is too wide and unspecific.

What is a "WP person"? Just like, what is a "Microsoft person" or an "Apple person"? A "WP person" who gets to be the face of official WP communications (4) is unlikely to be the same level as a "WP person" who posts anonymously in forums (3) hence cannot act in the same manner because they do not have the same information.

I could have repeated myself and defined the following concentric circles:

1. Low Thia Khiang / Sylvia Lim
2. Central Exec committee
3. Cadres
4. Card carrying members
5. volunteers
6. Voters
7. People generally sympathetic to the opposition.

But it doesn't really matter. Because at the end of the day, I just want to know to what degree what I'm reading in the forum is an indication of the way that the WP thinks. Because it is a party, and party is a very loose term. It just means faction. Even a person like Tan Jee Say would fall into one of the seven categories.

The dog can wag the tail and the tail can also wag the dog. Suppose the people say one thing and the leaders say another thing. Then how are they going to align? Like the people are forced to go with the leaders or the leaders know they have to adapt themselves to the views of the people? Can it be possible that LTK thinks one thing and the rest of the world thinks another thing? No, not for long. Eventually some things have to give: either one of them will change their minds, or one of them will walk away. That's why I never allow myself to think that the leaders are the "true WP" and the supporters are just there to follow the leader. When I hear enough obnoxious comments by people who are speaking out in support of WP I will start to question whether they are moving in the right direction. When I hear enough WP people start to act like they are damn yaya I start to wonder if they have started to believe their own hype. And while it is true that as of now the WP is by some distance the leader of the pack among the opposition parties, they're not yet at the level of the Barisan Socialis at their height.

I mean, there will be a lot of humbling experiences ahead of you, and maybe one day you will have the most humbling experience of all - which is that you get to run Singapore.

 

[SgParent]

I could have repeated myself and defined the following concentric circles:

1. Low Thia Khiang / Sylvia Lim
2. Central Exec committee
3. Cadres
4. Card carrying members
5. volunteers
6. Voters
7. People generally sympathetic to the opposition.

But it doesn't really matter. Because at the end of the day, I just want to know to what degree what I'm reading in the forum is an indication of the way that the WP thinks. Because it is a party, and party is a very loose term. It just means faction. Even a person like Tan Jee Say would fall into one of the seven categories.

The dog can wag the tail and the tail can also wag the dog. Suppose the people say one thing and the leaders say another thing. Then how are they going to align? Like the people are forced to go with the leaders or the leaders know they have to adapt themselves to the views of the people? Can it be possible that LTK thinks one thing and the rest of the world thinks another thing? No, not for long. Eventually some things have to give: either one of them will change their minds, or one of them will walk away. That's why I never allow myself to think that the leaders are the "true WP" and the supporters are just there to follow the leader. When I hear enough obnoxious comments by people who are speaking out in support of WP I will start to question whether they are moving in the right direction. When I hear enough WP people start to act like they are damn yaya I start to wonder if they have started to believe their own hype. And while it is true that as of now the WP is by some distance the leader of the pack among the opposition parties, they're not yet at the level of the Barisan Socialis at their height.

I mean, there will be a lot of humbling experiences ahead of you, and maybe one day you will have the most humbling experience of all - which is that you get to run Singapore.

what you'd comment is applicable to any party.... just like you'd wrote "Because it is a party, and party is a very loose term. It just means faction. "

so shall we be at least honest, transparent and talk about the white scums, sdp. nsp. whatever-p as well?

 

[tanwahp]

I could have repeated myself and defined the following concentric circles:

1. Low Thia Khiang / Sylvia Lim
2. Central Exec committee
3. Cadres
4. Card carrying members
5. volunteers
6. Voters
7. People generally sympathetic to the opposition.

But it doesn't really matter.

Quite disagreeable with what you said here. I think it matters.

Of course it would unreasonable of me to ask you to differentiate between all 7 categories. I would put 1 and 2 together, 3 and 4 and maybe 5 together and 6 and 7 together. 1 and 2 are the party mindsets that 3 - 5 do not have access to, more so 6 and 7. Ultimately, 6 and 7 are the "customers" of WP. How would you ask customers to answer for the party?

If an iPhone customer thinks Apple is going to last forever because Steve Jobs has laid a legacy, I don't think you can say this is how the new Apple management thinks. The iPhone customer is of course free to buy an iPhone for the rest of his life.

Because at the end of the day, I just want to know to what degree what I'm reading in the forum is an indication of the way that the WP thinks. Because it is a party, and party is a very loose term. It just means faction. Even a person like Tan Jee Say would fall into one of the seven categories.

Nope. A party has to be a solid organisation and not something "loose".

You are not likely to get an indication and it is better that you read the lips of WP leaders during interviews to get better indication.

If you go to TRE, PAP and SDP supporters act like cyber-terrorists. The thought that this is how the parties think or operate never crossed my mind. However, if you were to look at the anti-PAP, anti-WP or anti-SDP groups, they are not tied to any group (unless someone forms one) so their position is generally representative of the group's profile.

Even a person like Tan Jee Say would fall into one of the seven categories.

Yes, he is one of the 7 but he is not all 7 at the same time. He can also move up and down the 7 at different stages of time.

 

[metalmickey]

I've already explained to you the context where I said that the levels don't really matter. What you're looking for is a signal. People from the outer circles give a weaker signal, people from the inner circles give a stronger signal. Tan Jee Say's signal is almost nothing compared to the inner circle.

But there are troubling signs. Even if you want to argue that the supporters' views are not representative of the party, you have to ask yourself, what the fuck are these rogue elements doing talking at cross purposes with the leadership, are you going to have a problem when these people can't see eye to eye with the leadership.

Then the other thing. I had this impression that the WP 2011 election slogan is "towards a first class parliament". But the way I hear WP supporters talk, they prefer a world class grassroots system or a world class town council. Many of them are saying "let's get more seats into parliament before we talk about national issues and politics and big ideas." Or this is even worse: I get the feeling that a lot of people in WP don't even like big ideas.

Hello guys, we are electing you (ie the WP) for the big ideas. Only the big ideas will change the direction of the nation. If you have nothing to tell me, it means either you will not be prepared when you assume more and more power, or you know but you don't want to talk to us. Either case is extremely troubling. Especially the latter, because it means that you're just the same as the PAP.

I don't give a shit about "oh the PAP made it so hard for us, the PAP made us run the fucking town council". Remember that your ultimate political objective is to change the political system in Singapore. And just remember that even if all your asses are in parliament, and you have failed to do that, you will be deemed a failure.

 

[metalmickey]

what you'd comment is applicable to any party.... just like you'd wrote "Because it is a party, and party is a very loose term. It just means faction. "

so shall we be at least honest, transparent and talk about the white scums, sdp. nsp. whatever-p as well?

Limpeh has complained about the SDP and the white scums in the past. Today is "let's bash WP day" for me. And it's even better, more informative for me, since there are so many passionate WP supporters around here.

 

[3_M]

Then the other thing. I had this impression that the WP 2011 election slogan is "towards a first class parliament". But the way I hear WP supporters talk, they prefer a world class grassroots system or a world class town council. Many of them are saying "let's get more seats into parliament before we talk about national issues and politics and big ideas." Or this is even worse: I get the feeling that a lot of people in WP don't even like big ideas.

Hello guys, we are electing you (ie the WP) for the big ideas. Only the big ideas will change the direction of the nation. If you have nothing to tell me, it means either you will not be prepared when you assume more and more power, or you know but you don't want to talk to us. Either case is extremely troubling. Especially the latter, because it means that you're just the same as the PAP.
.

All politics is local. More so when we have compulsory voting where u need to reach out to that politically apathetic voting bloc not on big ideas but grassroots connection. A party needs to widen the band of their voter base to have a realistic shot at the 50% mark. And what I mean is election battles is basically a conquest for the middleground, they are the kingmaker here. Whoever wins the middleground win the election. Depending on opposition base supporters alone stand no chance.

 

[tanwahp]

I've already explained to you the context where I said that the levels don't really matter. What you're looking for is a signal. People from the outer circles give a weaker signal, people from the inner circles give a stronger signal. Tan Jee Say's signal is almost nothing compared to the inner circle.

But there are troubling signs. Even if you want to argue that the supporters' views are not representative of the party, you have to ask yourself, what the fuck are these rogue elements doing talking at cross purposes with the leadership, are you going to have a problem when these people can't see eye to eye with the leadership.

Then the other thing. I had this impression that the WP 2011 election slogan is "towards a first class parliament". But the way I hear WP supporters talk, they prefer a world class grassroots system or a world class town council. Many of them are saying "let's get more seats into parliament before we talk about national issues and politics and big ideas." Or this is even worse: I get the feeling that a lot of people in WP don't even like big ideas.

Hello guys, we are electing you (ie the WP) for the big ideas. Only the big ideas will change the direction of the nation. If you have nothing to tell me, it means either you will not be prepared when you assume more and more power, or you know but you don't want to talk to us. Either case is extremely troubling. Especially the latter, because it means that you're just the same as the PAP.

I don't give a shit about "oh the PAP made it so hard for us, the PAP made us run the fucking town council". Remember that your ultimate political objective is to change the political system in Singapore. And just remember that even if all your asses are in parliament, and you have failed to do that, you will be deemed a failure.

You are absolutely entitled to your views and I will maintain my disagreement to the way you draw your conclusions in both your main points. I will agree to disagree.

 

[metalmickey]

All politics is local. More so when we have compulsory voting where u need to reach out to that politically apathetic voting bloc not on big ideas but grassroots connection. A party needs to widen the band of their voter base to have a realistic shot at the 50% mark. And what I mean is election battles is basically a conquest for the middleground, they are the kingmaker here. Whoever wins the middleground win the election. Depending on opposition base supporters alone stand no chance.

No, I understand that. That's OK. But my question is: why is it that up till now I am still not having a clear picture of how the WP is going to run Singapore when they take over parliament.

How is that even possible?

 

[ray_of_hope]

But my question is: why is it that up till now I am still not having a clear picture of how the WP is going to run Singapore when they take over parliament.

How is that even possible?

The question does not arise as it is too premature. As LTK said of WP's win in Punggol East, it was a by-election and not to read too much into it.
The party that has MPs is not delusional. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Only the party that has ZERO MPs would talk about "unseating" the PAP. If people are delusional, that is their prerogative.
People should try to walk first before contemplating the marathon.

 

[yellowarse]

No, I understand that. That's OK. But my question is: why is it that up till now I am still not having a clear picture of how the WP is going to run Singapore when they take over parliament.

To be fair I think the WP supporters here and even the rank-and-file members will not be able to articulate WP's vision for Singapore if and when they form the government. They don't have a hotline to the inner circle.

You'll have to put that question to the WP leadership and MPs – my feeling is that the leadership keep their cards close to their chest about the direction in which they intend to take Singapore. The average supporter is told to help with the grassroots work, garner ground support and rope in as many people as possible. And rebut any anti-WP tirade online while refraining from commenting in an official position (GMS violated this rule and had to go) without prior clearance.

The SDP is different in that it's formed on the bedrock of a very transparent left-of-centre libertarian ideology which has remained consistent through the years, and which all voters – pro-opposition and pro-PAP alike – not just SDP supporters, know and understand.

 

[metalmickey]

I mean, read what I was saying earlier. I am complaining that I don't know about that vision. Which means I have two questions.

1. Do they even have a vision?
2. Maybe they have a vision and they're not communicating it, not sharing it with us. I'm not taking kindly to the secrecy at all. You can say all you want about "our Singapore conversation" being a farce. WP doesn't even do that yet.

 

[metalmickey]

The question does not arise as it is too premature. As LTK said of WP's win in Punggol East, it was a by-election and not to read too much into it.
The party that has MPs is not delusional. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Only the party that has ZERO MPs would talk about "unseating" the PAP. If people are delusional, that is their prerogative.
People should try to walk first before contemplating the marathon.

Too premature is bullshit. Two years have passed since GE2011. Or put it another way, 22 years have passed since Low Thia Khiang entered parliament.

The marathon doesn't end when you take over parliament. Taking over parliament is the starting point of the marathon. Before you run the marathon, (I have run a marathon before , by the way) you make plans. You develop a training program. And then you do it. You have to even plan when you're going to eat, when you're going to shit.
Where is the fucking training program? What is the meaning of a world class parliament?

Plenty of volunteers, my friend. Plenty of work going on, going door to door. Surely diverting a little of that to actual politics is not impossible?

 

[ray_of_hope]

I mean, read what I was saying earlier. I am complaining that I don't know about that vision. Which means I have two questions.

1. Do they even have a vision?
2. Maybe they have a vision and they're not communicating it, not sharing it with us. I'm not taking kindly to the secrecy at all. You can say all you want about "our Singapore conversation" being a farce. WP doesn't even do that yet.

Ask the folks living in Aljunied, Hougang and Punggol East. Most seem very satisfied. WP's immediate vision is to get more MPs so as to help more folks in other constituencies. WP understands the concept that a week in politics is a long time.

A journey of a thousands miles begins with a single step. As such, one step at a time...

SDP/CSJ's vision is "unseating" the PAP. Seems more like day-dreaming instead of a vision.

 

[zhihau]

If you think coalition politics is fun, it is not. Dream on--coalition governments rarely get work done.

how about the Swiss Government? no work done?

 

[yellowarse]

1. Do they even have a vision?

As I say, ask the leaders, not the supporters here.

2. Maybe they have a vision and they're not communicating it, not sharing it with us. I'm not taking kindly to the secrecy at all. You can say all you want about "our Singapore conversation" being a farce. WP doesn't even do that yet.

Maybe. But don't blame the supporters who frequent online forums. Their role is not to propagate WP's 'vision'.

 

[SgParent]

I've already explained to you the context where I said that the levels don't really matter. What you're looking for is a signal. People from the outer circles give a weaker signal, people from the inner circles give a stronger signal. Tan Jee Say's signal is almost nothing compared to the inner circle.

But there are troubling signs. Even if you want to argue that the supporters' views are not representative of the party, you have to ask yourself, what the fuck are these rogue elements doing talking at cross purposes with the leadership, are you going to have a problem when these people can't see eye to eye with the leadership..

you are confusing yourself between wp and their supporters so no point discussing further about what view from which level

let's clear your mind 1st

Then the other thing. I had this impression that the WP 2011 election slogan is "towards a first class parliament". But the way I hear WP supporters talk, they prefer a world class grassroots system or a world class town council. Many of them are saying "let's get more seats into parliament before we talk about national issues and politics and big ideas." Or this is even worse: I get the feeling that a lot of people in WP don't even like big ideas.

Hello guys, we are electing you (ie the WP) for the big ideas. Only the big ideas will change the direction of the nation. If you have nothing to tell me, it means either you will not be prepared when you assume more and more power, or you know but you don't want to talk to us. Either case is extremely troubling. Especially the latter, because it means that you're just the same as the PAP.

I don't give a shit about "oh the PAP made it so hard for us, the PAP made us run the fucking town council". Remember that your ultimate political objective is to change the political system in Singapore. And just remember that even if all your asses are in parliament, and you have failed to do that, you will be deemed a failure.

fact is daft, silent 60% decided they dun want wp to meddle with singapore policies so wp is <10% minority in the parliament

so why are you blaming wp and its supporters for downgrading their effort due to the reality? or you'd rather wp and its supporters declare independence in ahpetc and runs its own government?

 

[SgParent]

I mean, read what I was saying earlier. I am complaining that I don't know about that vision. Which means I have two questions.

1. Do they even have a vision?
2. Maybe they have a vision and they're not communicating it, not sharing it with us. I'm not taking kindly to the secrecy at all. You can say all you want about "our Singapore conversation" being a farce. WP doesn't even do that yet.

i'm ok as long as any oppo's vision is to help true pink singaporeans live to see the day when we have competition that always, always benefits the consumers.

the most direct and obvious way we can achieve that is by kicking out as many white scums as possible so that no 1 party is monopoly again.

having said that, i think first-class-parliament and more-wp-mp are quite aligned to that vision

 

[SgParent]

Limpeh has complained about the SDP and the white scums in the past. Today is "let's bash WP day" for me. And it's even better, more informative for me, since there are so many passionate WP supporters around here.

why you want to share how you name your day is beyond me.

i'm just pointing out the flaw in your comment. so if every1 wears pink, hello kitty underwear, will you only ask why ah low or a+ sylvia wears 1?

 

[metalmickey]

fact is daft, silent 60% decided they dun want wp to meddle with singapore policies so wp is <10% minority in the parliament

so why are you blaming wp and its supporters for downgrading their effort due to the reality? or you'd rather wp and its supporters declare independence in ahpetc and runs its own government?

No, what I am asking is why the WP is not meddling enough in the politics of the Singapore govt. And I mean Singapore govt, not ahpetc. Why do we not know enough about their plans for meddling in the Singapore govt. Why WP supporters are always saying grassroots grassroots grassroots and absolutely no talk about what's going to happen in parliament, what policies they're going to push for.

You really think that things are going to change and they have anything to do with more WP people in parliament? If they have no plans to change the Singapore govt, you can kick the PAP out, and Singapore will be exactly the same as it used to be. Failure to plan is planning to fail. For me, there is almost no difference between "give us more seats and your lives will magically become better" and "come to church more often, give us 10% of your pay, and you will go to heaven".

The longer this goes on, the more I'm getting convinced they're more interested in power for its own sake.

 

[metalmickey]

Maybe. But don't blame the supporters who frequent online forums. Their role is not to propagate WP's 'vision'.

That's almost like saying that the elites should run the government and never the people. And I thought you were the great believer in democracy.

If they're only talking about petty little things like squabbles between political parties, or who's in or who's out, and they're not talking about national issues and policies and how to make life better for Singaporeans maybe they should just shut the fuck up and not talk so much cock.