Breaking News Korean Ex-President Roh Jumped Mountain Suicided!

[littlefish]

don't come back with all this korean/jap/karate gee/sappuku BS ok...there is NO "honour" in taking the COWARD's way out by taking one's own life...you do the crime/wrong you pay for it by being properly ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE...it is as simple as that...do not run away and leave it to the living...what you profess is warped twisted oriental cultural logic at best...

Really? Committing suicide when there is no other way to clear your name is cowardice? Only cowards who dare not take the ultimate responsibility would call others cowardly for committing suicide when they are at their wits' end. I am not talking about committing suicide because of economic woes or other difficulties. I am talking about committing suicide to take responsibility for bringing dishonour to himself, his family, his country, etc. He paid for whatever wrongdoing with his life and you say that is not being accountable and responsible. In this case, he did not cause hardship to others by ending his life. He did it to show that he is willing to pay the ultimate price and the fault is his alone.

Values like courage, honour and integrity are universally recognised and admired throughout the world, regardless of the culture. Check out this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_Ronin.

Before you so readily criticise someone for taking the easy way out by committing suicide, I would like to see you try doing that. I guess people like you will run away from the enemy when you are the last man standing because you will consider charging at the enemy as suicide and taking the easy way out.

 

[sinren67]

it shd be - Prataman jumped from Bukit Timah Hill.

 

[littlefish]

Another instance of courage by committing suicide that is widely admired. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Kefa

 

[uncleyap]

Re: Koreans who benefited from Roh honors his death

i only "promote" objective reasoned logic and facts

Even that translate to entirely different things with deferent persons or different background. What you deemed as definitely reasonable reasonable can be entirely unacceptable to another person.

This is the reality in this world. I can understand how people like you deemed things your way, but that does not mean I will accept or adopt. :p

 

[uncleyap]

Mr Yap.

In japanand korea, taking own life as politicians if they have done very wrong and cause sufferings to their people is an honor but in sinkapore, facing death is a scary thing you know unless the battery stop working then bo bian.

In sinkapore, everybody know that fixing oppo and pork-barrel politics will move things on , almost 70% voters give mandate.

what is shame , what is compassion in sinkapore, money is the key word.

Honor in sinkapore politics ? the hearse may have to wait for another few years ...

That is an oriental comport and manifest of responsibility, honor and integrity up held by a person of traditional Asia origin.

If they failed to uphold their honor and integrity or commitment of life, they would rather die and that is considered honor.

That is why Asian women will take their own lives if they were raped for example. For the westerners, you raped them they might ask for another round, if they felt good. Hard to expect them to understand. Meaning of honor differs from one culture to another.

For PAp and famiLEE LEEgime, it is like what you said.

Their own Ah Beng Ego defines their own lame meaning of HONOR.

To milk Singaporean peasants for world's highest Cho Boh Lan salaries is also honor & pride to them. To Kowtow to the west and betray Asia is also honor, to be a dog for famiLEE is also honor, to ignore Rights from Wrong also honor, to claim honest mistake and deny all faults also PAp honor.... :oIo::oIo::oIo:

 

[uncleyap]

Another instance of courage by committing suicide that is widely admired. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Kefa

In this coming week the traditional day of 端午 is also another Chinese tradition in which the suicide of patriotic 屈原 is being honored highly.

屈原 jumped into river to his death in view of severe national plight and inability to convince the hopelessly corrupt and incompetent regime to reform.

Well honored and loved by the peasants who failed to recover the body of 屈原 from the river, the peasants started to dump rice and meat etc into river to feed fish hoping that the body of 屈原 won't be eaten by fish after being fed by all the food offered.

Subsequently on each anniversary of 屈原 's suicide the peasants missing this great man continue to conduct that offering ritual which turned into today's rice dumplings festival (端午).

The banana faked Ang Mohs in Singapore will never understand nor would be capable of appreciating this sort of honor and pride, at most they will only know how to eat rice dumplings. :(

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

"no other way to clear one's name"?...then what is the criminal justice system/rule of law all about and in this regard i am particularly referring to Roh's case...you do the crime then properly account and take responsibility and let the rule of law objectively, fairly and reasonably take its course...

yes "Values like courage, honour and integrity are universally recognised and admired throughout the world, regardless of the culture" but does this neccessarily extend to "suicide"?...i think not...if so, then you might as well say that Hitler went the honourable way...sheesh

as for your last para...you are clearly misconceived...this eg. of your is totally different from Roh's case...

Really? Committing suicide when there is no other way to clear your name is cowardice? Only cowards who dare not take the ultimate responsibility would call others cowardly for committing suicide when they are at their wits' end. I am not talking about committing suicide because of economic woes or other difficulties. I am talking about committing suicide to take responsibility for bringing dishonour to himself, his family, his country, etc. He paid for whatever wrongdoing with his life and you say that is not being accountable and responsible. In this case, he did not cause hardship to others by ending his life. He did it to show that he is willing to pay the ultimate price and the fault is his alone.

Values like courage, honour and integrity are universally recognised and admired throughout the world, regardless of the culture. Check out this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_Ronin.

Before you so readily criticise someone for taking the easy way out by committing suicide, I would like to see you try doing that. I guess people like you will run away from the enemy when you are the last man standing because you will consider charging at the enemy as suicide and taking the easy way out.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Re: Koreans who benefited from Roh honors his death

sorry i can only take the horse to the water trough...whether the horse wishes to drink well that is up to the horse...likewise i can reason with you that the world is round but if you still insist that the world is flat...then so be it

Even that translate to entirely different things with deferent persons or different background. What you deemed as definitely reasonable reasonable can be entirely unacceptable to another person.

This is the reality in this world. I can understand how people like you deemed things your way, but that does not mean I will accept or adopt. :p

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yeah right even if it is irrational and illogical...sheesh

That is an oriental comport and manifest of responsibility, honor and integrity up held by a person of traditional Asia origin.

If they failed to uphold their honor and integrity or commitment of life, they would rather die and that is considered honor.

That is why Asian women will take their own lives if they were raped for example. For the westerners, you raped them they might ask for another round, if they felt good. Hard to expect them to understand. Meaning of honor differs from one culture to another.

 

[Lee Hsien Tau]

it shd be - Prataman jumped from Bukit Timah Hill.

More like Prata-man slipped over banana peel.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

more like pragmatic rational people if you ask me

get over your chip on your shoulder yap...no one culture is superior to the other...be it west, east, north, south...white, brown, yellow, black...there is good and bad in any culture...what is important is how the individual is able to keep the good parts of his/her own culture and discard the bad bits while at the same time try to adopt the good bits of other cultures...

The banana faked Ang Mohs in Singapore will never understand nor would be capable of appreciating this sort of honor and pride, at most they will only know how to eat rice dumplings.

 

[Trout]

Actually, let's get back to the topic of the S.Korean Economy...
Something's gotta give soon...

The S.Korean govt is clamping down on online dissent there as well, someone was arrested in Seoul because he blogged about the poor state the Korean economy was in - certainly Singapore hasn't reached that level yet, and the current President of S.Korea is a conservative hardliner against N.Korea, and has also approved policies to clamp down on freedoms and rights in S.Korea.

Hope to bring the discussion to a direction with more meaningful discussion pls.

Cheers,
Trout

 

[littlefish]

"no other way to clear one's name"?...then what is the criminal justice system/rule of law all about and in this regard i am particularly referring to Roh's case...you do the crime then properly account and take responsibility and let the rule of law objectively, fairly and reasonably take its course...

yes "Values like courage, honour and integrity are universally recognised and admired throughout the world, regardless of the culture" but does this neccessarily extend to "suicide"?...i think not...if so, then you might as well say that Hitler went the honourable way...sheesh

as for your last para...you are clearly misconceived...this eg. of your is totally different from Roh's case...

I gave my example because you took a swipe at all who committed suicide. Whether Roh was corrupt or not, I don't know but for sure, he did not commit crimes as heinous as Hitler. If he did wrong, he has tried to pay for it with his life, a much less honourable person may try to wriggle his way out of any punishment (you don't need to look very far for examples). If you are so brave, why not concentrate your efforts on those who have escaped any punishment to this day instead of criticising those who have paid a price over what is expected for the crimes they are guilty of.

 

[nkfnkfnkf]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2009-05/26/content_11434558.htm

卢武铉用生命阐释“腐败零容忍”
2009年05月26日 07:15:04 　来源：新京报
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卢武铉以“死”挽回他更珍视的良知、羞耻心和尊严，从而保全他为一个大写的“人”。

5月25日，在韩国前总统卢武铉的故乡庆尚南道金海市峰下村，人们在卢武铉的遗像前哀悼。新华社/法新

一个在任总统，因享有“元首豁免权”，除了议会弹劾之外，很难遭受刑事指控。而失去“豁免权”的卸任总统，常受司法指控之“骚扰”，这在全球比比皆是。但卸任总统选择跳崖自杀来表清白的，也大概只有在韩国才会发生，而且也只会发生在卢武铉身上，这涉及卢本人对“腐败零容忍”的心理认知。

虽然卢的一些支持者们谴责针对卢和卢家人的司法调查是“政治迫害”，以及在野党有趁机捞取“同情政治”的倾向，但目前从适用的法律正当性及程序公平性上看，卢案并不偏离“司法程序”的范畴，卢并没有指责检方调查是“政治谋杀”。

从法理上看，即便确立了卢的家人收受了商人的“钱财”，但要建构卢触犯韩国《政治献金法》一事，还得先确立卢“知情”或“授意”家人收受“钱财”，并把此“钱财”使用于不正当之处的证据，才能在刑法上成立腐败罪。

而从受贿金额上看，即使定罪，入狱服刑的时间也不会太长。而由于他是“前国家元首”，即使服刑，也会受到一定的礼遇。也就是说，只要以“人权律师”而名震韩国律界的卢武铉肯动动“脑筋”，无罪辩护应是信手拈来之事。

再者，韩国历史上素有“总统难当”之宿命，卢只是这一规律中的一个重复例子而已。包括现任总统李明博，当选时曾受反腐败调查。也就是说，陷入历史“宿命”的卢武铉只要把自己视为“不正常”中的“正常”，他完全心安理得地成全韩国文化，而不必自杀。

第三，韩国的腐败兼有东方“请托”文化的基因，也有西方“裙带资本主义”制度性缺陷，是根深蒂固的，是卢一个人所不能改变的，他不能幸免于腐败怪圈，并非全是他之错。

总之，只要卢武铉“脸皮厚”一点，针对卢本人的腐败指控，结果可能是“雷声大，雨点小”，不必陷于“绝望”之境。

显然，杀卢者，卢本人矣。是卢对腐败毫不作任何道德上的妥协，使其逼入绝路。卢武铉曾说过，“只要有腐败行为就会让其身败名裂”。卢武铉对腐败的“零容忍”的态度，彻底践行于自己身上，他以“死”挽回他更珍视的良知、羞耻心和尊严，从而保全他为一个大写的“人”。

只要韩国民众一心求清流政治，只要韩国继续认同竞争政治，那么，残酷的党派民主争斗裹挟下的反腐败战车，就会辗过挡在前面的任何一个腐败分子。因而，卢之死，或可促进韩国的政治清廉，只是这代价有点大了。　(□和静钧 学者)

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

this has nothing to do with "bravery" and i was specifically taking a swipe at Roh...the criminal justice system and rule of law should have been allowed to take its course...simple as that

I gave my example because you took a swipe at all who committed suicide. Whether Roh was corrupt or not, I don't know but for sure, he did not commit crimes as heinous as Hitler. If he did wrong, he has tried to pay for it with his life, a much less honourable person may try to wriggle his way out of any punishment (you don't need to look very far for examples). If you are so brave, why not concentrate your efforts on those who have escaped any punishment to this day instead of criticising those who have paid a price over what is expected for the crimes they are guilty of.

 

[littlefish]

Oh come on, you are being modest, you were really brave in harshly criticising a dead former South Korean president in this forum from behind your PC. It was no ordinary criticism as well, you labelled him a coward, give yourself a pat on the back.