Serious Breaking down the HDB scam known as Lease BuyBack Scheme (LBS) Part 1

[Papsmearer]

who owns the land on this development?

URA owns it.
In 99 years they will take it back and the descendants of all these idiots who bought it are going to have to give it up for nothing.

 

[Papsmearer]

sinkie laws have land acquisition act. in other words in north american parlance, it's eminent domain (with suka suka clauses). at least in u.s., local, state or federal gov must justify use of eminent domain and public hearing is required. in sg, if your freehold property is not protected within and adjacent to estates of higher mortals, your lesser mortal lot can easily be acquired by laa laa laa.

In the US, eminent domain gives many protection to the landowners. they will go to court with a battery of lawyers to fight the govt that is taking their land. They almost always get a premium over the market price. Not like the Leegime where you will be lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar. In the 60s and 70s and 80s URA only paid you book value. In other words, if your great grandfather bought the durian plantation for $10,000 in 1920, then $10,000 is all you will get in 1970. happened to a friend of mine. PAP and Leegime like to boast about all their surpluses. Well, if you steal people's property and homes like this, sure to get surplus even after lining your own pockets.

 

[nayr69sg]

URA owns it.
In 99 years they will take it back and the descendants of all these idiots who bought it are going to have to give it up for nothing.

No lah it is not so bad. They can enbloc right? That's the difference between buying 99-year leasehold private condo vs HDB flat.

Papsmearer you got any investments in Singapore property?

 

[Papsmearer]

No lah it is not so bad. They can enbloc right? That's the difference between buying 99-year leasehold private condo vs HDB flat.

Papsmearer you got any investments in Singapore property?

Not likely. the piece of land already has been maxed out on the density. If the owners want to en bloc later, a developer has to be able to squeeze even more units on the same piece of land. usually, if they can get 3 times more units then the current development, it may tempt them. But I don't think this is possible at all. The fact its reclaimed land makes it even more doubtful as to how high they can go for extra density.

 

[nayr69sg]

Not likely. the piece of land already has been maxed out on the density. If the owners want to en bloc later, a developer has to be able to squeeze even more units on the same piece of land. usually, if they can get 3 times more units then the current development, it may tempt them. But I don't think this is possible at all. The fact its reclaimed land makes it even more doubtful as to how high they can go for extra density.

Papsmearer are you trying to say that when it comes down to it there is very little difference between HDB and private 99 year leasehold?

 

[Papsmearer]

Papsmearer are you trying to say that when it comes down to it there is very little difference between HDB and private 99 year leasehold?

The difference is night and day

 

[nayr69sg]

The difference is night and day

Legally I understand the differences. Also in terms of who owns the land you have explained very nicely.

But when it comes to residents owning these 99 year leasehold condos that have very low possibility of enbloc then what happens to their investment when the 99 years are up?

 

[Papsmearer]

Legally I understand the differences. Also in terms of who owns the land you have explained very nicely.

But when it comes to residents owning these 99 year leasehold condos that have very low possibility of enbloc then what happens to their investment when the 99 years are up?

depends on what the ground lease agreement says. I have already mentioned this before. do you have amnesia? Ground lease is the underlying lease that the landowner signs with the developer who build the high rise. In some cases, landowner is the same as the developer. The land they own might be a freehold land but they only give a 99 years lease on the high rise that they build to sell. If the buyer buys a unit there, what happens at the end of the 99 years is entirely dependent on what the terms of the ground lease is. the ground lease could according to how the terms are drawn up 1) be extended at the end of 99 years for another fixed period of time with additional payments to the land owner b) the lease cannot be extended and the land has to be returned to the owner in its original state, which could mean the high rise has to be torn down, c) the lease cannot be extended, and the improvements on it could revert to the land owner. i.e the building goes to landowner.

Stop asking what will happen. No one knows. It depends on the terms of the 99 year lease. If the underlying land owner is a stat board or govt body, there will be no extension, the land will be take back.

 

[nayr69sg]

depends on what the ground lease agreement says. I have already mentioned this before. do you have amnesia? Ground lease is the underlying lease that the landowner signs with the developer who build the high rise. In some cases, landowner is the same as the developer. The land they own might be a freehold land but they only give a 99 years lease on the high rise that they build to sell. If the buyer buys a unit there, what happens at the end of the 99 years is entirely dependent on what the terms of the ground lease is. the ground lease could according to how the terms are drawn up 1) be extended at the end of 99 years for another fixed period of time with additional payments to the land owner b) the lease cannot be extended and the land has to be returned to the owner in its original state, which could mean the high rise has to be torn down, c) the lease cannot be extended, and the improvements on it could revert to the land owner. i.e the building goes to landowner.

Stop asking what will happen. No one knows. It depends on the terms of the 99 year lease. If the underlying land owner is a stat board or govt body, there will be no extension, the land will be take back.

Sounds to me there is a lot of risk in buying 99 year lease condos anyway.

In example 1) have to cough up more money after 99 years.

Example b) it is basically same as HDB flat

Example c) also same as HDB flat

What are terms of most 99 year leases like? Is there a premium if the land is freehold and landowner is the developer?

I am not having amnesia. I am just asking more about how you decided that HDB flat and 99 year lease condos are as different as night and day? The only difference that I can see is that in all HDB the landowner is govt. but as you pointed out some 99 year leasehold condos landowner also could be govt as well.

So both are also paying to rent the place for 99 years. Unless the land is actually freehold and owned by developer then there is a chance that developer might take some money and allow residents to stay on. But there is probably no reason why landowner developer will screw the residents and ask them all to move out rebuild a new estate and sell for big bucks again. Correct?

So how is it different night and day? Maybe different morning and afternoon?

 

[mojito]

Sounds to me there is a lot of risk in buying 99 year lease condos anyway.

In example 1) have to cough up more money after 99 years.

Example b) it is basically same as HDB flat

Example c) also same as HDB flat

What are terms of most 99 year leases like? Is there a premium if the land is freehold and landowner is the developer?

I am not having amnesia. I am just asking more about how you decided that HDB flat and 99 year lease condos are as different as night and day? The only difference that I can see is that in all HDB the landowner is govt. but as you pointed out some 99 year leasehold condos landowner also could be govt as well.

So both are also paying to rent the place for 99 years. Unless the land is actually freehold and owned by developer then there is a chance that developer might take some money and allow residents to stay on. But there is probably no reason why landowner developer will screw the residents and ask them all to move out rebuild a new estate and sell for big bucks again. Correct?

So how is it different night and day? Maybe different morning and afternoon?

Rights are different. Condos can lease to prostitutes to stay no problem; HDB you got to be careful. Almost all cases is tenant sublet to the ladies end up neighbors complain owner mati. Papsmear this fella you gotta discount his hubris a little bit.

 

[eatshitndie]

Rights are different. Condos can lease to prostitutes to stay no problem; HDB you got to be careful. Almost all cases is tenant sublet to the ladies end up neighbors complain owner mati. Papsmear this fella you gotta discount his hubris a little bit.

yes, it depends on modernity, quality and location. return on investment in 99-year leasehold condo in the sinkie context is in multi-year rental to highly renumerated expats and high class chickens. the window is limited though, at around 23 years. after that, either condo is too dated to attract atas expat and escort tenants or the equity value in terms of resale starts to decline, barring a bubble condition. in bubble conditions, any hole in the wall can be sold for a profit, including hdb pigeon holes.

 

[JohnTan]

In the US, eminent domain gives many protection to the landowners. they will go to court with a battery of lawyers to fight the govt that is taking their land. They almost always get a premium over the market price. Not like the Leegime where you will be lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar. In the 60s and 70s and 80s URA only paid you book value. In other words, if your great grandfather bought the durian plantation for $10,000 in 1920, then $10,000 is all you will get in 1970. happened to a friend of mine. PAP and Leegime like to boast about all their surpluses. Well, if you steal people's property and homes like this, sure to get surplus even after lining your own pockets.

Your great grand daddy may have lost his plantation to PAP, but in return, thousands of sinkies get to own their HDB homes instead of staying in dinky attap houses or overcrowded shophouses.

One unhappy family vs thousands of happy families, it isn't difficult to see which one will win votes during elections.

 

[nayr69sg]

have you not listened to anything I have said? SIngapore is one of the most controlled property markets in the world. And its all artificial. And you want to invest here? Why don't you buy in Vancouver, the hottest property market in North America. where the words 99 year leasehold and 99 year HDB lease are foreign concepts

Yes I have already sold all my properties in Singapore and bought houses in Canada.

But you seem to be invested in the Singapore property market right?

 

[Papsmearer]

Sounds to me there is a lot of risk in buying 99 year lease condos anyway.

In example 1) have to cough up more money after 99 years.

Example b) it is basically same as HDB flat

Example c) also same as HDB flat

What are terms of most 99 year leases like? Is there a premium if the land is freehold and landowner is the developer?

I am not having amnesia. I am just asking more about how you decided that HDB flat and 99 year lease condos are as different as night and day? The only difference that I can see is that in all HDB the landowner is govt. but as you pointed out some 99 year leasehold condos landowner also could be govt as well.

So both are also paying to rent the place for 99 years. Unless the land is actually freehold and owned by developer then there is a chance that developer might take some money and allow residents to stay on. But there is probably no reason why landowner developer will screw the residents and ask them all to move out rebuild a new estate and sell for big bucks again. Correct?

So how is it different night and day? Maybe different morning and afternoon?

I tell u diff is like night and day means its like night and day lah. Wah lau, explaining zikapore properties to you is like talking to a Primary 3 kid. U sure you are a doctor ah?

1) Cough up money is one thing. SLA is only approving lease top ups on a case by case basis. They have only approved 60% so far. And even if approved, for a project like Mandarin Gardens, I think the greedy bastards will ask for over $50 million in premiums, which the owners have to come up with. If possible, stay away from 99 year private condo leasehold. I made the mistake of buying them in my younger days, still have some but have switched over to freehold and landed for a while now. SOme times, the spread is not very much between freehold and 99 years leasehold. Some MG units selling for around $1150 PSF. Not much diff from resale freehold units in other parts of zikapore.

As I have mentioned to you repeatedly, and u still asking me the same question. Once again I have to explain to you.
Who owns your condo unit if you live in a 99 years leasehold condo? You do
Who owns your HDB flat if you have one on a 99 year lease? HDB owns it.
If you want to sell your private condo, who can you sell it to? Anyone you like and anyone who can pay the money. They can be foreigners, locals, married, singles etc. You control the sale of your own condo. No one can prevent you from selling or renting to who you wish.
If you had to "sell" your HDB flat, who can you sell it to? Firstly, you cannot sell it if HDB does not approve the new "buyer". The new "buyer" has to meet the rules regarding family unit, citizenship, PR, other property ownership, ceiling income, racial makeup, etc. So, your pool of potential "buyers" for a HDB flat is less then that for the private 99 yr condo. Agreed? Is it more valuable to the owner to have these restrictions? Of course its not. U would much rather be a 99 yr lease owner if you were in the market to sell.
Add to this is the quality of the 99 year condos versus HDB. You have better build quality, swimming pool, gym, other amenities, private security, etc. therefore, its night and day, u are comparing oranges with apples.

 

[nayr69sg]

Papsmearer I was looking at it from the point of what happens AFTER 99 years are up. Which is the main discussion of the thread in the first place.

I see your point now. You are looking at the point of during the 99 year leasehold they are different as night and day.

But it looks like AFTER 99 years there isn't so much of a difference. Correct?

Sorry I very stupid one and I am not a doctor. Just a dog.

 

[jw5]

Sorry I very stupid one and I am not a doctor. Just a dog.

Absolutely agree and I am with you on this.

 

[Papsmearer]

Papsmearer I was looking at it from the point of what happens AFTER 99 years are up. Which is the main discussion of the thread in the first place.

I see your point now. You are looking at the point of during the 99 year leasehold they are different as night and day.

But it looks like AFTER 99 years there isn't so much of a difference. Correct?

Sorry I very stupid one and I am not a doctor. Just a dog.

I do not bother to really look at 99 years, because in the end, we are all dead long before that.

But to answer your question:

HDB - After 99 years, must give up flat, walk away empty handed.
99 Year private condo - a) Give up condo and walk away empty handed
b) If land owner agree, pay land owner to extend or top up lease
c) Owners can collectively offer to buy the land from the Landowner, not a high chance

 

[borom]

PAPsmearer has raised many interesting points and explained the legal issues.

However the reality is that 80% of sillipore have no choice (like in not enough money) but to buy HDB and retire in one.

Even if you can afford an EC , the next level, the price is 3 times more (eg 5 rm HDB $400k, EC 5 rm $1.2m)-so is it worth to pay 3 times more for essentially the same type of property (99 years lease) in around same location except that in EC you have condo facilities and pay 3 x the conservancy ($70 vs around $200 ++). The value of EC becoming private after 11 years is the subject of a separate argument.So I won't waste time talking about condos(leasehold/freehold) or landed .In fact I suspect most of these HDB dwellers do not even understand what document they have signed when they paid for them and the smarter ones hope to upgrade to condos/migrate ect2 when the chicken comes to roost.

End of day 80% have no choice but to buy HDB and accept whatever the HDB (or rather PAP ) decides -unless the political situation change.
Its good to highlight the potholes/weaknesses in the ministers argument (WP sleeping?)-but unless the political equation changes, it will alas be in vain.

 

[longdongsilver]

I do not bother to really look at 99 years, because in the end, we are all dead long before that.

But to answer your question:

HDB - After 99 years, must give up flat, walk away empty handed.
99 Year private condo - a) Give up condo and walk away empty handed
b) If land owner agree, pay land owner to extend or top up lease
c) Owners can collectively offer to buy the land from the Landowner, not a high chance

xxx
the difference is not exactly like night and day.. more like dawn and noon..when the twilight hits..it is sunset for both types of housing.

 

[ahtee]

best is pap pass a new land law and convert all land to 99 years. fair to everyone.