Speak Dialects, you feel tribal ! Speak mandarin, it will break unity!

lnchwmn_only · Mar 22, 2009

char_jig_kar said:
OEI! THIS IS YOUR PARAGRAPH THREE AT MSG 275

"my message is to those who think that they are sinophiles and are being in contact with your chinese roots by learning and perfecting your mandarin . you are totally barking up the wrong tree. Learning mandarin only gives you three hundred years of heritage and history and most of these are manchu or tungustic heritage."

WHERE DID I TWIST YOUR WORD??

Never mind that, this is what u say now, "my point is clear hor....speaking mandarin is only good for three hundred years.... you want to go any deeper, ols retain your dialect roots...go and argue with this"

Now, lets think of this famous highly deemed ancient philosopher, Lao Zi. His from Warring States Period. Earlier than Tang Dynasty, earlier than Han Dynasty and further back.

His work, Dao De Jing, is important Chinese canon no? Its one of the most important work of the Chinese culture canon.

Now, would I get connect to ancient Chinese roots by reading his work? Yes, of course.

So who the fuck are u to tell us to all go first learn how to speak ancient chinese longer than 300 years old in order to connect to chinese roots??? I could use mandarin to recite dao de jing, tell me, should i go first learn cantonese, or hokkien dialect, in order to read and recite Lao Zi's dao de jing??

i cant believe this ...uncle has been in this forum since 2003....now want to ban me for using my old nick....well-done.....

back to you confused little one-why is uncle in a position to tell you all these, because i am far more superior to you in terms of history. languages and most of all, my chinese cultural heritage

pls note that mandarin is a spoken language....that is what we have been talking abt all this while. written chinese is not spoken mandarin...the chinese characters from Tao de Jing and Shijing have not changed for thousands of years. mastery of written chinese means you can read this no doubt. but unfotunately you are reading this is in a foreign language and not Laozhi's language, as scroobal pointed out, the nuances and finer points would all have been lost to you. lao zhi would have written his work with one thing in mind while you would have read with another.
a better example is shijing, try reading poems in mandain means the poems do not rhyme and has no rhythm. you cannot connect to the era when these ancient poems were written. you dun hv to learn old chinese or middle chinese but it is helpful if you can appreciate your own roots by retaining your knowledge of dialects. if you read the first poem in shijing in hokkien, at least two lines would still rhyme and overall there is still some semblance of a poem, that is what you have been missing. you are hopelessly lost thinking mandarin was your mother tongue

try reading this in mandarin...i kind of suspect you probably cnat read chinese either

關關雎鳩在河之洲窈窕淑女君子好逑
參差荇菜左右流之窈窕淑女寤寐求之
求之不得寤寐思服悠哉悠哉輾轉反側
參差荇菜左右采之窈窕淑女琴瑟友之
參差荇菜左右芼之窈窕淑女鐘鼓樂之

Ramseth · Mar 22, 2009

By birth, I'm Teochew. I can understand Teochew but seldom speak or even hear it spoken nowadays. Teochew doesn't have the advantage of Hokkien and Cantonese, with sustained pop culture and media support from Taiwan and HK. Anyway, I speak Hokkien as mother tongue, cause my mom and grandmom both spoke Hokkien to me from infancy. That's why it's called mother tongue, not father tongue.

I also picked up Cantonese naturally and effortlessly from childhood and neighborhood friends, and they picked up Hokkien and Teochew too. My contention with MM Lee is that dialects don't have to be "learned", we keep it in the environment and pass it on generation to generation. Speaking dialect is no impairment to learning Mandarin. In fact, I feel that speaking dialect even helps learning Mandarin.

I have no issue with the idea of all Chinese learning Mandarin as it's the adopted and accepted standard both in PRC and ROC. However, there's no need to impose a ban as if it's a plague. Some dialects will fade off naturally and some will sustain. It's alright for Singapore Chinese stations to produce Mandarin TV series and news programs only, but why force us to watch HK and Taiwanese productions dubbed in Mandarin? Cantonese and Hokkien are in the same language family as Mandarin, not foreign languages like Japanese or Korean. In my generation, Hokkiens enjoyed original HK productions and Cantonese enjoyed original Taiwanese productions etc.

And, most of us grew up speaking and/or understanding at least 2 languages and 2 dialects. But sadly, that's looking like an ancient generation now.

char_jig_kar · Mar 22, 2009

1) It took 302 post before you coughed out what your mother tongue is. Thats what the PAP was hoping for and you delivered. Never ever be shy of your roots no matter how humble they are.

I am not shy with my mother tongue! Its just I don't wanna drag in all kind of thing which is irrelevant to this thread. I still cant see the relevancy of YOU asking me whats my mother tongue.

2) You keep associating mandarin with the culture of dialect groups, arguing round and round with no progress or a foundation to build your case.

Where did I associate mandarin with the culture of dialects groups??? Why do u keep coming up with new allegation without showing any prove? The fuck is wrong with u?

3) Those whose mother tongue is Mandarin is a very minute lot. Mentioning this tells me you can make a mountain out of molehill. Even the PAP never mention this.

Okay, suppose Mandarin not many have it as mother tongue. So?? Why do u wanna bring it up in the first place? What has it gotta do with this thread? Whether people has Mandarin as their mother tongue or not, whats that gotta do with anything??

4) Even an idiot knows that that written chinese cuts across all dialects. Thats like saying that Chinese come from China. The fact remains that Mandarin is not the mother tongue for 99% of Chinese in Singapore.

I just wanna remind u, that there's commonality in all dialects. Its not like we have different dialects and different written language, AND ALL TOTALLLLLY DIFFERENT VALLLLLUUUUES. So don't make it as if all dialects are unique with NO COMMONALITY WITH OTHER DIALECT AT ALL.

I have numbered the bullets because you have poor comprehension skills, you can't remember what you post and logical flow is not your strong point.

You don't make any sense at all in your message to me. And yet u said that i have problem with my comprehension skill and logical flow?? Harlo??

If Beijing dictates that Hokkein will replace Mandarin as the main language of government, commerce and education, its economic value will rise tremendously and rapidly. But I nor any one else will ever state that Hokkein has cultural value for other dialect speakers in seeking and understanding their roots. Its cultural value to other dialect speakers is zilch.

What about exploring culture values of other dialect group? BEYOND THE HOKKIEN? EVER THINK ABOUT THAT? SO HOKKIEN JUST STICK TO HOKKEN CULTURE?? DON'T CARE ABOUT OTHER CULTURAL WEALTH, THE SUM TOTAL OF CHINESE CULTURAL WEALTH, ALL OF IT ARE SHIT BECAUSE ITS NOT RELEVANT TO HOKKIEN CULTURE???

Frankly I don't blame you. You are suspectible to govt communication (propaganda). They told you that opposition has no calibre and you agreed but don;t know the meaning of monopoly of power nor can you see the big picture. They told you that Mandarin unites Singaporeans but little did you understand that it also destroyed the clans and the various dialects groups politically. There is no other country that bans broadcasts or reportage along langauge lines except Singapore.

When did I agree with PAP govt on that there's no calibre with Opposition??? COULD U KINDLY SHOW ME A POST??? AT LEAST ONE POST, PLLLLLEEEEASSSSE???

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT MONOPOLY OF POWER, THE HARM IT DOES?? PLEASE SHOW ME A POST WHICH I SHOWN THAT KIND OF IGNORANCE.

MANDARIN UNITE THE CHINESE THATS RIGHT. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. THE WRONG IS WITH LEE KUAN YEW ERADICATION OF DIALECTS, THATS THE FUCKING PROBLEM. SO WHEN DID I SAY I SUPPORT HIS MOVE TO ERADICATE DIALECT??? AGAIN U FABRICATE WORDS AND PUT IN MY MOUTH. THE USUAL MO OF THE WP.

Its takes a strong mind and the ability to think indepedently to handle this government. You posses neither. It took 20 years for the old man to realise that lingustic skills cannot be acquired easily by everyone but he was prepared to destroy the lives of many along the way. When his grandson staggered linguistically, he was transferred to American School and the simple mind told you to accept that it was dyslexia. You actually believe that dyslexia cannot only be treated by the Amercian School.

YOU ARE JUST BABBLING. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR BABBLE IS ABOUT.

Donkeys are stubborn but not stupid. Learn to argue with logic and learn to walk away when there is no foundation to base your opinions on.

HARLO. YOU ARE TOTALLY OUT OF YOUR MIND WITH ALL YOUR ALLEGATION ON ME. NOT ONCE DID YOU SHOW ME ANYTHING TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM.

Once again, Mandarin has tremendous economic value. For Singapore, in addtion it provides a political advantage to some interest. Its absolutely absurd to think the nuances of ones culture, roots etc can be understood by language that is not associated with that culture.

HARLO?? THATS WHY MANDARIN PLAYS A IMPORTANT PART IN BRIDGING ALL KIND OF DIFFERENT CHINESE CULTURE.

SUPPOSE I WANNA WATCH A CHINESE DOCUMENTARY ABOUT HAKKA CULTURE. AND I AM A HOKKIEN. TELL ME, WHAT LANGUAGE SHOULD THE DOCUMENTARY BE???

char_jig_kar · Mar 22, 2009

lnchwmn_only said:
i cant believe this ...uncle has been in this forum since 2003....now want to ban me for using my old nick....well-done.....

back to you confused little one-why is uncle in a position to tell you all these, because i am far more superior to you in terms of history. languages and most of all, my chinese cultural heritage

pls note that mandarin is a spoken language....that is what we have been talking abt all this while. written chinese is not spoken mandarin...the chinese characters from Tao de Jing and Shijing have not changed for thousands of years. mastery of written chinese means you can read this no doubt. but unfotunately you are reading this is in a foreign language and not Laozhi's language, as scroobal pointed out, the nuances and finer points would all have been lost to you. lao zhi would have written his work with one thing in mind while you would have read with another.
a better example is shijing, try reading poems in mandain means the poems do not rhyme and has no rhythm. you cannot connect to the era when these ancient poems were written. you dun hv to learn old chinese or middle chinese but it is helpful if you can appreciate your own roots by retaining your knowledge of dialects. if you read the first poem in shijing in hokkien, at least two lines would still rhyme and overall there is still some semblance of a poem, that is what you have been missing. you are hopelessly lost thinking mandarin was your mother tongue

try reading this in mandarin...i kind of suspect you probably cnat read chinese either

關關雎鳩在河之洲窈窕淑女君子好逑
參差荇菜左右流之窈窕淑女寤寐求之
求之不得寤寐思服悠哉悠哉輾轉反側
參差荇菜左右采之窈窕淑女琴瑟友之
參差荇菜左右芼之窈窕淑女鐘鼓樂之

its crap all over again.

let me ask u, if i could recite dao de jing in mandarin, and understand what it says. why would it make a difference for me to recite it in ancient spoken chinese???

like i said, the youtube clip, those recitation in so call ancient chinese, to me, its sounds muddled. unclear. so why would it benefit one to recite li ba's poem in ancient chinese, which sounds muddled???? shiok?? for whom??

Hakka Tiow · Mar 22, 2009

lnchwmn_only said:
i cant believe this ...uncle has been in this forum since 2003....now want to ban me for using my old nick....well-done.....

back to you confused little one-why is uncle in a position to tell you all these, because i am far more superior to you in terms of history. languages and most of all, my chinese cultural heritage

pls note that mandarin is a spoken language....that is what we have been talking abt all this while. written chinese is not spoken mandarin...the chinese characters from Tao de Jing and Shijing have not changed for thousands of years. mastery of written chinese means you can read this no doubt. but unfotunately you are reading this is in a foreign language and not Laozhi's language, as scroobal pointed out, the nuances and finer points would all have been lost to you. lao zhi would have written his work with one thing in mind while you would have read with another.
a better example is shijing, try reading poems in mandain means the poems do not rhyme and has no rhythm. you cannot connect to the era when these ancient poems were written. you dun hv to learn old chinese or middle chinese but it is helpful if you can appreciate your own roots by retaining your knowledge of dialects. if you read the first poem in shijing in hokkien, at least two lines would still rhyme and overall there is still some semblance of a poem, that is what you have been missing. you are hopelessly lost thinking mandarin was your mother tongue

try reading this in mandarin...i kind of suspect you probably cnat read chinese either

關關雎鳩在河之洲窈窕淑女君子好逑
參差荇菜左右流之窈窕淑女寤寐求之
求之不得寤寐思服悠哉悠哉輾轉反側
參差荇菜左右采之窈窕淑女琴瑟友之
參差荇菜左右芼之窈窕淑女鐘鼓樂之
[/QUOTE

Uncle ki lan lah! mudskipper lu kon simi lanjiao? Superior ki lan Pondan kiah!

lnchwmn_only · Mar 22, 2009

char_jig_kar said:
its crap all over again.

let me ask u, if i could recite dao de jing in mandarin, and understand what it says. why would it make a difference for me to recite it in ancient spoken chinese???

like i said, the youtube clip, those recitation in so call ancient chinese, to me, its sounds muddled. unclear. so why would it benefit one to recite li ba's poem in ancient chinese, which sounds muddled???? shiok?? for whom??

you are arguing in circles as usual, you might as well recite tao te ching in english and malay, do you think it is the same as reciting it in its original language?

and pls do not further your partyline by suggesting that our ncestor's lagnuages is muddled and unclear .... it is an insult to all chinese

screwdriver181 · Mar 22, 2009

lancheowman said:
its politics la... mandarin gives them a way to control the chinese populace

DO not underestimate the population of the PRC.... go take a walk in Geylang.. haha

scroobal · Mar 22, 2009

Now you know why I had to be number the bullets points. People can see your response and make a judgement. Now that post is a classic example of circular logic.

Let us take a look at your last 2 sentences - Mandarin playing a uniting role for different culture. Obviously its does. Nobody said other wise. If chosen, any dialect can play that uniting role.

Its your claim that Mandarin can replace a dialect in understanding the culture and roost of that dialect that we are disputing.

Like I said, you have no clue about what you post.

ps. if you want to understand Hakka culture and you only understand Hokkein, try and get someone who is conversant in both langauges. If you use Mandarin to bridge Hakka and Hokkein, the dilution is significantly more as the intrepretation takes 2 steps instead of 1.

With someone conversant in both Hakka and Hokkein, they can actually tell you what the main difference between the cultures are pointing out what Hokkein do but what the Hakka do differently.

Of course, its more economical to translate into a universal language but expect the loss of substance to some degree.

(If you can't understand the logic behind this, read it repeatedly and slowly.)

screwdriver181 · Mar 22, 2009

Hakka Tiow said:
lnchwmn_only said:

i cant believe this ...uncle has been in this forum since 2003....now want to ban me for using my old nick....well-done.....

back to you confused little one-why is uncle in a position to tell you all these, because i am far more superior to you in terms of history. languages and most of all, my chinese cultural heritage

pls note that mandarin is a spoken language....that is what we have been talking abt all this while. written chinese is not spoken mandarin...the chinese characters from Tao de Jing and Shijing have not changed for thousands of years. mastery of written chinese means you can read this no doubt. but unfotunately you are reading this is in a foreign language and not Laozhi's language, as scroobal pointed out, the nuances and finer points would all have been lost to you. lao zhi would have written his work with one thing in mind while you would have read with another.
a better example is shijing, try reading poems in mandain means the poems do not rhyme and has no rhythm. you cannot connect to the era when these ancient poems were written. you dun hv to learn old chinese or middle chinese but it is helpful if you can appreciate your own roots by retaining your knowledge of dialects. if you read the first poem in shijing in hokkien, at least two lines would still rhyme and overall there is still some semblance of a poem, that is what you have been missing. you are hopelessly lost thinking mandarin was your mother tongue

try reading this in mandarin...i kind of suspect you probably cnat read chinese either

關關雎鳩在河之洲窈窕淑女君子好逑
參差荇菜左右流之窈窕淑女寤寐求之
求之不得寤寐思服悠哉悠哉輾轉反側
參差荇菜左右采之窈窕淑女琴瑟友之
參差荇菜左右芼之窈窕淑女鐘鼓樂之
[/QUOTE

Uncle ki lan lah! mudskipper lu kon simi lanjiao? Superior ki lan Pondan kiah!

Click to expand...

Crude..but true i guessed

lnchwmn4 · Mar 22, 2009

the truth cannot be supressed... go here to find out more.....this forum is not so free anymore

http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?p=221455#post221455

char_jig_kar · Mar 22, 2009

lnchwmn_only said:
you are arguing in circles as usual, you might as well recite tao te ching in english and malay, do you think it is the same as reciting it in its original language?

and pls do not further your partyline by suggesting that our ncestor's lagnuages is muddled and unclear .... it is an insult to all chinese

when did i argue in circles?

look, you are getting MORE AND MORE ABUSRD. the dao de jing, each and every words, we could pronounce it in mandarin. the english and malay could not pronounce the words written in the dao de jing. they could translate it, but not pronounce it as it is. because its written in Chinese.

now, each and every word in dao de jing, we could pronounce in mandarin. so why does it make any difference to pronounce in ancient chinese?

i am not toting any partyline (i am not link to any party), suggesting the recitation of li bai poem in ancient chinese, is muddled. I AM TELLLING YOU AS IT IS: IT SOUNDS FUCKING MUDDLED AND UNCLEAR TO ME. YOU COULD GO ASK AROUND FOR OTHER OPINIONS.

lnchwmn_only · Mar 22, 2009

char_jig_kar said:
when did i argue in circles?

look, you are getting MORE AND MORE ABUSRD. the dao de jing, each and every words, we could pronounce it in mandarin. the english and malay could not pronounce the words written in the dao de jing. they could translate it, but not pronounce it as it is. because its written in Chinese.

now, each and every word in dao de jing, we could pronounce in mandarin. so why does it make any difference to pronounce in ancient chinese?

i am not toting any partyline (i am not link to any party), suggesting the recitation of li bai poem in ancient chinese, is muddled. I AM TELLLING YOU AS IT IS: IT SOUNDS FUCKING MUDDLED AND UNCLEAR TO ME. YOU COULD GO ASK AROUND FOR OTHER OPINIONS.

you are losing it ....calm down adn try to focus.... i can give you an english and malays translation of tao de jing or give it to an ang mo or malay....they can read this in their own languages like you read this in mandarin.....you can have a rough idea of what it says but you will never appreciate it fully becos you are not reading it in the author's language, the mandarin reader is just a little better than the neglish and malays reader

and dun forget the shijing, can you read any chinese? does that poem rhyme in mandarin....can you even tell?

you are insulting and continuing to insult the chinese language by saying li bai was a muddled and speech slurring poet.....all that mandarin and propaganda has brainwashed you ....using the F word only shows us how desperate you are

char_jig_kar · Mar 22, 2009

scroobal said:
Now you know why I had to be number the bullets points. People can see your response and make a judgement. Now that post is a classic example of circular logic.

Let us take a look at your last 2 sentences - Mandarin playing a uniting role for different culture. Obviously its does. Nobody said other wise. If chosen, any dialect can play that uniting role.

Its your claim that Mandarin can replace a dialect in understanding the culture and roost of that dialect that we are disputing.

HARLO??!! WHEN DID I FUCKING SAY THAT?? I didn't EVER claim dialect could replace Mandarin in understanding the cultural roots of the dialect group.

Like I said, you have no clue about what you post.

NO. ITS YOU DON'T HAVE ANY FUCKING CLUE ON WHAT YOU POST. AND U DO IT IN SUCH FUCKING CONFIDENCE AND YAYANESS, WHICH IS BAFFLING. AND MIND BOGGLING.

ps. if you want to understand Hakka culture and you only understand Hokkein, try and get someone who is conversant in both langauges. If you use Mandarin to bridge Hakka and Hokkein, the dilution is significantly more as the intrepretation takes 2 steps instead of 1.

With someone conversant in both Hakka and Hokkein, they can actually tell you what the main difference between the cultures are pointing out what Hokkein do but what the Hakka do differently.

Of course, its more economical to translate into a universal language but expect the loss of substance to some degree.

(If you can't understand the logic behind this, read it repeatedly and slowly.)

HARLO?? I AM TALKING ABOUT A DOCUMENTARY IN MY PREVIOUS POST. SO HOW? IF I ONLY KNOW HOKKIEN, AND I WANNA UNDERSTAND HAKKA CULTURE THRU DOCUMENTARY (have some rough idea), WHAT LANGUAGE SHOULD THE DOCUMENTARY BE IN?

You had said it, "Of course, its more economical to translate into a universal language but expect the loss of substance to some degree." OF COURSE! TO HAVE A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE. SO MANDARIN SERVE THAT PURPOSE AMONG DIFFERENT CHINESE DIALECT GROUP. SO WHATS THE PROBLEM???

screwdriver181 · Mar 22, 2009

Man in the streets said:
Speaking dialects in Singapore will bond local people together, in addition, you feel tribal among the local tribe.

Keep your dialects, teach your children and learn mandarin only when necessary.

Dont be conned to speaking Mandarin, it will break up local unity.

Please speak dialects at home, you child will learn more about his or her roots as local singaporeans.

Most children nowadays speak more Singlish than Chinese or Hokkien.

char_jig_kar · Mar 22, 2009

lnchwmn_only said:
you are losing it ....calm down adn try to focus.... i can give you an english and malays translation of tao de jing or give it to an ang mo or malay....they can read this in their own languages like you read this in mandarin.....you can have a rough idea of what it says but you will never appreciate it fully becos you are not reading it in the author's language, the mandarin reader is just a little better than the neglish and malays reader

again, u are doing a turning and twisting here. this is what u had said, "you are arguing in circles as usual, you might as well recite tao te ching in english and malay, do you think it is the same as reciting it in its original language?"

the key word is recite. its about recitation. not translation. and now, u twist it and now u said, "i can give you an english and malays translation of tao de jing or give it to an ang mo or malay...."

its not about translation. ITS ABOUT RECITATION. OKAY???

and dun forget the shijing, can you read any chinese? does that poem rhyme in mandarin....can you even tell?

Why not? It sounds okay to me.

you are insulting and continuing to insult the chinese language by saying li bai was a muddled and speech slurring poet.....all that mandarin and propaganda has brainwashed you ....using the F word only shows us how desperate you are

i don't have the intention to insult anyone. but the youtube clip, the so call recitation of li bai's poem in ancient spoken chinese, its muddled, and unclear.

lnchwmn_only · Mar 22, 2009

char_jig_kar said:
again, u are doing a turning and twisting here. this is what u had said, "you are arguing in circles as usual, you might as well recite tao te ching in english and malay, do you think it is the same as reciting it in its original language?"

the key word is recite. its about recitation. not translation. and now, u twist it and now u said, "i can give you an english and malays translation of tao de jing or give it to an ang mo or malay...."

its not about translation. ITS ABOUT RECITATION. OKAY???
Quote:
and dun forget the shijing, can you read any chinese? does that poem rhyme in mandarin....can you even tell?

Why not? It sounds okay to me.

Quote:
you are insulting and continuing to insult the chinese language by saying li bai was a muddled and speech slurring poet.....all that mandarin and propaganda has brainwashed you ....using the F word only shows us how desperate you are

i don't have the intention to insult anyone. but the youtube clip, the so call recitation of li bai's poem in ancient chinese, its muddled, and unclear.

LOL...i think you are losing it.....ok let uncle point out your mistake whether we are reciting and reading it in english and malay, it makes no difference... in both scenarios, the foreign reader just like the mandarin reader cannot appreciate the nuances that the author would have intended... pls answer this part and stop beating around the bush

and....if you cannot find anything meaningful to say, just guai guai admit defeat la....

if you think guan ju sounds fine in mandarin, then you are defying the logic of thousands of years.....let uncle oso quote wilkopedia to teach you a lesson....next time please dun try to tell a white lie again....
btw, the controversy behind shijing is from chinese wilko...so if you cannot respond, it's quite clear you dun even know mandarin
"漢語發音從《詩經》到南北朝已經發生了重大的變化，南北朝人讀先秦文獻的時候，發現有許多押韻不和諧的地方了。當時人對《詩經》的註解反映他們遇到的困難：當《詩經》的韻腳不押韻時，他們牽強的改其中一個字的音使其押韻，認為這樣讀起來更加和諧。例如：

「燕燕於飛，上下其音，之子于歸，遠送于南」
-- 《詩經·邶風·燕燕》
在這首詩中的「音」和「南」兩個字押韻。北梁人沈重在《毛詩音》中指出：「南：叶句，宜乃林反」。他用反切的方法標註他認為正確的讀音。這個方法叫做「叶韻」。隋朝人陸德明認為不應該使用叶韻法，因為他認為古代人押韻不嚴謹，沒有必要改正《詩經》的讀音。他指出：「沈云叶句宜乃林反，今謂古人韻緩，不煩改字」。"

在宋朝，朱熹等人繼承了南北朝的叶韻法（亦稱「叶音」），並非常系統的用這個方法來改正《詩經》和《楚辭》裡所謂「不和諧」的韻腳字的讀音。他們認為，古人對韻腳字可以臨時改讀，他們還沒有發現隨着時間的推移而變化的發音原則，他們以為先秦時代的古人的發音和宋朝人一樣。但是，在這個時代，吳棫在《毛詩叶韻補音》等著作中發現《詩經》的押韻現象是有規則的，他通過對韻腳字系統的考察，把中古韻類歸納成九個韻部。雖然吳棫缺乏明確的歷史概念（他把唐宋和先秦的韻腳字混為一談）他的研究邁出了進入正確的路線的第一步，為後代的學者開闢了研究古音的新途徑。除了他以外，鄭庠、項安世、程迥等人進行了古音的研究。

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/上古漢語

do i need to produce something from wilko to debunk the second white lie of yours that says li bai's poems sounds better in mandarin?

Jah_rastafar_I · Mar 22, 2009

char_jig_kar said:
its crap all over again.

let me ask u, if i could recite dao de jing in mandarin, and understand what it says. why would it make a difference for me to recite it in ancient spoken chinese???

like i said, the youtube clip, those recitation in so call ancient chinese, to me, its sounds muddled. unclear. so why would it benefit one to recite li ba's poem in ancient chinese, which sounds muddled???? shiok?? for whom??

Hakka Tiow said:
lnchwmn_only said:

i cant believe this ...uncle has been in this forum since 2003....now want to ban me for using my old nick....well-done.....

back to you confused little one-why is uncle in a position to tell you all these, because i am far more superior to you in terms of history. languages and most of all, my chinese cultural heritage

pls note that mandarin is a spoken language....that is what we have been talking abt all this while. written chinese is not spoken mandarin...the chinese characters from Tao de Jing and Shijing have not changed for thousands of years. mastery of written chinese means you can read this no doubt. but unfotunately you are reading this is in a foreign language and not Laozhi's language, as scroobal pointed out, the nuances and finer points would all have been lost to you. lao zhi would have written his work with one thing in mind while you would have read with another.
a better example is shijing, try reading poems in mandain means the poems do not rhyme and has no rhythm. you cannot connect to the era when these ancient poems were written. you dun hv to learn old chinese or middle chinese but it is helpful if you can appreciate your own roots by retaining your knowledge of dialects. if you read the first poem in shijing in hokkien, at least two lines would still rhyme and overall there is still some semblance of a poem, that is what you have been missing. you are hopelessly lost thinking mandarin was your mother tongue

try reading this in mandarin...i kind of suspect you probably cnat read chinese either

關關雎鳩在河之洲窈窕淑女君子好逑
參差荇菜左右流之窈窕淑女寤寐求之
求之不得寤寐思服悠哉悠哉輾轉反側
參差荇菜左右采之窈窕淑女琴瑟友之
參差荇菜左右芼之窈窕淑女鐘鼓樂之
[/QUOTE

Uncle ki lan lah! mudskipper lu kon simi lanjiao? Superior ki lan Pondan kiah!

Click to expand...

Pls ignore that lancheow man.

U see what is his nick? Lan jiao man

So lan jiao fella kong lan jiao wei.

lnchwmn_only · Mar 22, 2009

you are already being ignored....lol ....

char_jig_kar · Mar 23, 2009

lnchwmn_only said:
LOL...i think you are losing it.....ok let uncle point out your mistake whether we are reciting and reading it in english and malay, it makes no difference... in both scenarios, the foreign reader just like the mandarin reader cannot appreciate the nuances that the author would have intended... pls answer this part and stop beating around the bush

u are doing it again. twisting and turning. tell me like that how can lim bei talk to u further? its not about "reciting and reading it (dao de jing) in english and malay".

this is what u said,

"you are arguing in circles as usual, you might as well recite tao te ching in english and malay, do you think it is the same as reciting it in its original language?"

there's a great difference between reciting dao de jing in mandarin or english/ malay. because one cant recite the words in chinese into english or malay. translation is required.

and....if you cannot find anything meaningful to say, just guai guai admit defeat la....

if you think guan ju sounds fine in mandarin, then you are defying the logic of thousands of years.....let uncle oso quote wilkopedia to teach you a lesson....next time please dun try to tell a white lie again....
btw, the controversy behind shijing is from chinese wilko...so if you cannot respond, it's quite clear you dun even know mandarin

u don't have to come talk to me about guan ju. lets just stick to the issue of Dao De Jing. don't shif focus.
let me repeat my question. again.

if i could read Dao De Jing in mandarin, and understand every word of it. why would it make a difference if i read Dao De Jing in ancient spoken chinese?

do i need to produce something from wilko to debunk the second white lie of yours that says li bai's poems sounds better in mandarin?

don't have to pull all kind of stunt. we could just do it ourselves. read those li bai poem in mandarin, and compare to the sound of it from the youtube clip. Which is clearer? mandarin sounds clearer. Which sound muddled? the ancient spoken chinese sound muddled.

char_jig_kar · Mar 23, 2009

Jah_rastafar_I said:
Hakka Tiow said:

Pls ignore that lancheow man.

U see what is his nick? Lan jiao man

So lan jiao fella kong lan jiao wei.

Click to expand...

thankx buddy. sometimes it just seems too surreal. good to know that not all of the people here in this thread buy his crap.

Speak Dialects, you feel tribal ! Speak mandarin, it will break unity!

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