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Elaboration on answers to Housing Issues @ TOC Forum

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
164589_10150105571236383_14440041382_7462230_1641107_n.jpg


I was invited to be one of the panelists at TOC end of year event, Face-to-Face Forum on 16 Dec 2010. Housing issues became one of the hottest again.

Due to time constrains, I have given key points and short answers to the questions asked. I would like to elaborate further here on what I have said during the forum.

The first question asked was whether HDB should be privatized. My first response is that it should not. HDB is part of a socialist Land Reform program. Due to scarcity of land in Singapore, it is important for us to avoid land hogging by a small group of landlords while the masses and future generations suffer. The fall of the ancient feudal systems was basically due to the income and wealth inequality partly exaggerated by the unequal distribution of land.

Thus it is important for the government to act as an arbitrator in making sure that land can be recycled over generations for public usage like housing. The 99-year leasehold HDB flats are part of this scheme to maintain sustainability of land usage across generations. Privatizing HDB will not do us good. It will most probably result in higher prices for HDB flats due to the profit maximizing nature of a private entity.

The second question about HDB is on what will happen to those who have paid hefty prices for their HDB flats but now I am advocating lower HDB prices. I explained that the HDB has two market segments. First, we have the NEW HDB flat market and second, the resale market. The government, via HDB, is the sole monopoly of supply in the NEW HDB flat market. The demand comes from citizens only. The resale market is basically a free market where sellers are those who own HDB flats (both PRs and Citizens) and buyers from both PRs and citizens as well.

The government has FULL CONTROL over the New Flat market as the monopoly. It should sell these flats at cost to Singaporeans as I have explained earlier that our forefathers have sacrificed their land for the development of this Nation. It is the unwritten social contract that the government in return should take care of Singaporeans' basic public housing needs.

On the other hand, the government should not meddle or distort the resale market, which is a free market by giving grants to first timers. This is a bit "counter-intuitive" which results in people calling it a "radical view" but it is not!

The rational is very simple. Just taking an analogy of a fireman trying to put out a fire. Will he add oil to the fire? Obviously not. If there is a pipe leaking oil to the fire, what will he do? Obviously, it is to stop the leakage.

Money and easy credit are just like fuel to the fire of high prices. Giving grants to first timers to buy resale flat is an act of market distortion to increase the demand of resale market. There are a few implications:

1) The present system is such that the NEW HDB flats prices are pegged at the resale market prices. It is naturally for the government to want to maintain a high Resale prices.

2) The grants given to first timers have to come from somewhere. i.e. from the higher prices of New HDB flats. At the same time, resale levy is charged on those who sold their flats and apply for new flats.

3) It is basically a scheme that goes round about, self-feeding itself to maintain or push up the prices of HDB flats, both resale and new HDB flats.

4) Such grants coupled with easy credit and low interest rates will encourage more young couples to OVER COMMIT themselves. If these young couples, in spite of low interest rate of 1.5% or less from private banks need to commit 30 years loans to buy their resale flats, they will be in trouble if interest rates rise in future! That will become Singapore's Subprime!

My proposal of a new system is:

1) Sell NEW HDB flats at cost.
2) Don't meddle in the free resale market by removing the grants.

Many youngsters may scream at the second point. I would advise them to take a step back and ponder. The proposal is a package. New young couples will have a far CHEAPER OPTION of having their first new HDB flat when it is sold at cost.

After you get your first HDB flat at CHEAP price, it will provide you a good financial position to get your resale HDB flat later on. My concern now is that too many young couples are over committing themselves by going for resale HDB flats. This will add financial burden to the new families and in the end, you may not have enough finances to have babies.

It is also an important thing to show to young couples that it is more worthwhile to buy NEW HDB flats with a big difference in the prices. If young couples are to be lured into resale HDB flats with the HDB grant and resulting in over committing themselves, a 30 years mortgage loan starting at low interest rate but going up later one, most people will be forced to sell their flats for retirement in the end!

However, I also caution that our only HDB flat is OUR HOME and SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED AS INVESTMENT. A HOME is not something you can sell off that easily. Each and every corners of your HOME are embedded with the collective memories of your family members.

I am asked about how I am going to make such "unpopular" idea to Singaporeans. I just replied, we just have to make it "popular". We should be careful about politicians trying to sell you GREED and be populist. My generation as well as my father's generation has been hoodwinked by PAP's sales of GREED through "ASSET ENHANCEMENT SCHEME". Who suffers in the end? My generation, the younger generation as well as future generations.

Two years ago, nobody would have thought that the campaign on HDB issues would be fruitful. Nobody believes that I could convince so many people that the HIGH HDB PRICES IS BAD FOR THEM. Nobody sees the bad points of 30-year mortgage for HDB flats. With the help of the online media, blogs and networking tools, we have managed to get the message viral. Many people are talking about the ills of the 30-year mortgage. I strongly believe that I can go a step further to bring forth my point about my "instinctively unfavorable" or even "politically incorrect" policy views that this is the best way for Singapore's future generations.

Of course, for those who have committed at high HDB prices, I just have to remind them that it is PAP who makes them suffer with such bad policy. Look on the bright side. Just like many people of my generations who were caught in the late 1990s property boom and subsequent bust, as long as we treat our flat as our HOME, whether the price went up or down, it didn't affect us, even when we became negative asset holders. On top of that, in my proposal, the resale market will be allowed to grow on its own. In the long run, the HDB resale prices will still grow although in a relatively slower pace.

One sensitive HDB issue was raised by M Ravi on the ethnic quota. It is a well-known fact that ethnic quota restrictions affect the minority races adversely.

I went a bit further to say that the present restriction may have impact on ethnic economy. Look at Tampines. It has a bigger proportion of Malay community of 24%. Tampines has the most number of Muslim coffeeshops as compared to other places. There are even shops selling Malay traditional clothing. A critical mass congregation of the minority ethnic group will provide more opportunities for their ethnic entrepreneurs to strive.

Thus in my view, I have no problem with any precincts or groupings with less than 50% composition of the minority races. Why not more than 50%? If the minority race becomes the majority composition of a precinct, that would mean statistically, it has become a big outlier!

I have not mentioned the lower band. My proposal is to have a band, instead of a tight rule of 25%. The band will range from 15% to 45%. It also means that the Chinese majority race cannot exceed 85% of the composition in any precincts.

Many people would suggest to get rid of the ethnic quota once and for all. I do not favor that but instead, take a progressive step towards that aim. I have spoken to foreign visitors from Australia, Sri Lanka and other places on Earth and they admire our racial policies in this aspect. It is something that we may have taken for granted for all this while. But a relax of such rules may foster better ties and lessen the price that any ethnic groups may suffer as the result of the ethnic quota rule.

I hope that these elaborations on my comments and responses given during the TOC Face to Face Forum will provide more insight into the policy rationale behind them.

Goh Meng Seng
 
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Tristan

Alfrescian
Loyal
I would suggest you don't meddle with things that are proven to help young couples own ther first home and let them make the choice of getting a place close to their parents home. There are many, many things that are not measured by dollars and cents. If you really have people's interests at heart, go focus your energy on something else.

From personal experience, I can state categorically that the grant has helped me own my first home (a resale HDB), stayed close to my parents whose help helped me raise two wonderful kids and now allowed me to own a landed property. My advise for any young couple is this: Don't listen to the madman GMS and please accept any type of grants, any kind of support, because every little help should not be dismissed when you are making that first step.

You are convinced that grants and low interest rates will make couples over commit themselves, I'm telling you to please stop micro-managing peoples lives and let couples (some of whom are very savvy in their investment options like myself) decide their plans.

GMS, your views are myopic. You think you know better, I think your thoughts are juvenile. You have neither the experience nor the intellect to lead and I hope you will never set your feet in parliament.
 

Watchman

Alfrescian
Loyal
I would suggest you don't meddle with things that are proven to help young couples own ther first home and let them make the choice of getting a place close to their parents home. There are many, many things that are not measured by dollars and cents. If you really have people's interests at heart, go focus your energy on something else.

If you cannot get the money out from them at stage 1 .

You find it harder to squeeze later .
 

annexa

Alfrescian
Loyal
GMS for your long cock and bull story, your still don't get the point of interest. You write too long.

If you just ask ONE simple question, MBT will shit his pants more than this long essay. I give you for free this time. Just ask Uncle Mah, HDB is private. Private entities want to maximise profit. After HDB build they handover to Town Council. Town Council is public. So how much expertise does the TC have in assessing what they took over is good and don't need gazllion dolloars to maintain? Does TC have a say in the design and tendering process? Can TC reject goods produce by HDB after inspection/. TC got inspect in the first place or not? How does MBT think of this conflict of interest now? He got ever think there was conflict of interest before or not?


You see divorcing the maintainance from the producing stage IS THE FUCKING DANGER. Because now HDB can build fuck at low cost and let the TC (which uses taxpayer money) to pick the tab in maintaining and renovating shit! So how? My point stronger than your fucking long essay right?
 

Tristan

Alfrescian
Loyal
HDB pigeon holes can never be sold at cost. If you do that, there will never be any aspirations to better one's quality of life by moving ahead in life. And if you do not aspire to better yourself, you will end life as a two-bit computer dealer like GMS who is no economist but talks and talks like he is Lim Chong Yah.
 

cathylmg

Alfrescian
Loyal
HDB pigeon holes can never be sold at cost. If you do that, there will never be any aspirations to better one's quality of life by moving ahead in life. And if you do not aspire to better yourself, you will end life as a two-bit computer dealer like GMS who is no economist but talks and talks like he is Lim Chong Yah.

Yeah! Totally agreed with you on this!
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree with you.

Lets not go into the "Finland" debacle of the previous GE. Campaigns are short soundbytes. To questions it is more or less yes or no.





GMS for your long cock and bull story, your still don't get the point of interest. You write too long.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro, you started well, don't unravel now when the finish is coming on the horizon.
Politics is about short comments and topical soundbytes. TiLik did well - aggressive, taking the fight to the PAP and painting it as close to evil. After all you are not happy with PAP or am I mistaken.

All you need to do is focus on Mah and the HDB failure. Don't even attempt to rationalise your thoughts or do another 'Finland" like the last GE.

Your essay could be absolutely correct and you might even win the Nobel prize for politics but it will never win you a seat in parliament. Stop thinking like an economist and think like a politician. If Ken who is amply qualified to be an economist managed to change , that should tell you a lot.

If you fumbled, just say that you were taken out of context and move on. The grant is going to be shackle unless you do something. This is not the time to show your characteristic stoic self.


I was invited to be one of the panelists at TOC end of year event, Face-to-Face Forum on 16 Dec 2010. Housing issues became one of the hottest again.

Due to time constrains, I have given key points and short answers to the questions asked. I would like to elaborate further here on what I have said during the forum.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Among the six chaps, I rate GMS as the best person resembling a professor. But when he open mouth, .................................. paiseh, more like an idiot.
 

sinren67

Alfrescian
Loyal
Someone tell me why the WP send GG instead of LTK?

LTK see this group no up??

Same sentiment...all are key leaders, except WP. LTK most probably feel that this forum is a waste of time and doesn't carry any weight at all. If held in NUS or NTU, maybe SL will be sent. It's obvious that WP shows no respect to the rest of opps which they think they are the only 1st class opp.
 

Dreamer1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Same sentiment...all are key leaders, except WP. LTK most probably feel that this forum is a waste of time and doesn't carry any weight at all. If held in NUS or NTU, maybe SL will be sent. It's obvious that WP shows no respect to the rest of opps which they think they are the only 1st class opp.
No class or first class,what is the different!

how many If there are 40% solidly against PAP,which I am ,if the question is who respect opposition leaders,I guess---------
 

borom

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
.........proven to help young couples own ther first home and let them make the choice of getting a place close to their parents home....the grant has helped me own my first home (a resale HDB), stayed close to my parents whose help helped me raise two wonderful kids ......

In the first place,why is there a need for the grant?
This is because of the huge influx of foreigners that pushed up resale HDB prices.If the policy were to change and ONLY CITIZENS CAN BUY HDB (including resale), than I'm sure HDB prices (including resale) will come down and there would be no need for the grant. There is no free lunch in this world and the grant has to be fiunded by government taxes/levy on the citizens until its repaid.

Anyway, one reason why many are forced to go for resale flats are also due to another flaw in planning, i.e the inadequate supply of new HDB flats.
If there are adequate supply of new HDB flats, the waiting period should be much shorter and less people need to go for resale flats (probably mostly new citizens).Just divert a couple of billions from Temasek/GIC into housing for citizens will do.

I think its OK to gradually reduce and eventually remove the grant once the policy is changed to ONLY CITIZENS ARE ALLOWED TO BUY HDB FLATS(including resale flats).The reduction can be timed to match the reduction in resale HDB prices(not just COV that should not there in the first place)

One change the opposition should push for is that only citizens are allowed to purchase public housing. If the so called foreign talent cannot afford to buy private properties, then they are no talent .Its no different from say importing a foreign player to play in the S-League-do you want to import a so called foreign talent player whoes salary is lower than that of a local and can only afford to stay in HDB?
 

Tan Kim Kim

Alfrescian
Loyal
dmd5py.jpg



Originally Posted by NamQiong
Let provide more details here.

Back in the old forum at delphi, there was already plenty of mudslingings going on over GMS's conduct to some elderlies in an AMK coffeeshop. According to eye witnesses, he and some guys threaten a couple of uncles over some misunderstanding. Then a forummer (can't remember the nick) posted a link which indicated GMS had visited this site www.sggirls.com, where all kind saucy pictures of young girls (some even in sec school uniform) that is sexual in nature. You can visit this site to see for yourself. GMS blew his top and launched a tirade against this forummer that is worse that what he did now. TODAY newspaper reported about it and WP Low Thia Khiang called for a meeting to blast GMS and imposed restrictions on internet posting. GMS objected and LowTK asked to fuck off from WP. Chia TL also resigned in protest because he was also very active defending GMS in the forum. After leaving WP, GMS then boasted in the forum that LTK and SL begged him to stay but he wanted to do something "bigger".

GMS then posted in the forum that he wanted to set up a new party by himself. He wanted to name it "New Workers' Party". All the WP forum members promptly fucked him upside down, and he abandon the idea. Then he joined NSP and bragged about his plan to set up a training course for training politicians and he will act as a "mentor" for them. Yes, don't laugh, that is what he posted in the forum. Well, this loud-mouth egoistic I-am-better-than-everyone GMS abandon his plan when he find that it was the joke of the town.
:oIo:
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Someone tell me why the WP send GG instead of LTK?

LTK see this group no up??

Funny, why should LTK or WP see TOC organisers or other parties up?

Why don't they see WP up and join WP?

Fact is, there's no such thing as seeing up or down.

There're differences across all parties, that's why there're so many parties.

Anyway, commanding respect is something to be earned, not demanded.

TOC was founded by someone who resigned from WP.

NSP Sec-Gen. is someone who resigned from WP.

SF Sec-Gen. is someone who resigned from WP.

Enough said, they all have disagreements with WP.

WP sending a CEC member is already giving face enough.

And a good choice at that, someone new and uninvolved in past disagreements.

There's another angle in question too, why so many high profile resignations from WP?

I think let the voters decide who's right.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Wrong. If you want to be treat as an equal, there is an expecation that reciprocity is expected. Thats common sense in any human interaction. The least WP should do is to state beforehand why LTK could not attend well before the picture emerged. They still need to explain.


To stretch the analogy, why not LTK ask you take over at his rep during meet the people sessions for the duration of his terms as you see "no up".

Most people are aware that Low has an issue with forums conducted in English and painstaking avoids it and it is a known weakness. At least find a cock and bull story to avoid suggesting that he is above all of the rest. Its called respect.



Funny, why should LTK or WP see TOC organisers or other parties up?

Why don't they see WP up and join WP?

Fact is, there's no such thing as seeing up or down.

Th
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
During the previous GE. PTader led the dogs claiming of his misconduct in AMK coffeeshop. For such a minor politcian, I am surprised the level of attention that idiots provide GMS.


TKK, you still owe us the story of what GMS did in Hong Kong.:biggrin:
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Wrong. If you want to be treat as an equal, there is an expecation that reciprocity is expected. Thats common sense in any human interaction. The least WP should do is to state beforehand why LTK could not attend well before the picture emerged. They still need to explain.

To stretch the analogy, why not LTK ask you take over at his rep during meet the people sessions for the duration of his terms as you see "no up".

Most people are aware that Low has an issue with forums conducted in English and painstaking avoids it and it is a known weakness. At least find a cock and bull story to avoid suggesting that he is above all of the rest. Its called respect.

There's nothing to do with English. If so, Sylvia could have attended. There's nothing to do with me, I'm not even a CEC member. It's been WP policy not to be too highly profiled and unnecessarily involved with other parties, haven't you noticed? I don't see LTK having problem with basically comprehensible English in pre-election boundary conference, election rally and Parliament. There's nothing to explain. An invitation is not a warrant.
 
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