WWW.Japanese F3 vs Chinese J20

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Why did the japanese easily took half of Eastern China, The chinese fight among themselves CCP vs KMT instead of fighting off the Japanese.

Look at Korean war, the UN has the most mordern weapons , the chinese has inferior weapons but they still kick the butt of UN......

Yes China doesn't has those, and are inferior armed, look at the japanese army they are very well equips, they still have a hard time fighting the chinese army, shouldn't it be a walk over since they are so well equip.

Americans did supply some of the equipments to the chinese army, the ground fighting was done by the chinese themselves.

India, China war wasn't India supply by the US and the brits, they still lost to ill equip chinese army......

over 80% of US lend-lease aids ( goods and services ) were given to Britain and Russia to enable the allies to eventually defeat the Germans in the Western Front. 3% of lend-lease aids were given to China to bog down 2 millions Japanese forces in her continent sized country. before late 1943, China only received 0.2% of lend-lease when over 90% supplies were going to Europe.

can Soviet Russia defeat the Germans in the Eastern Front if they only received a few percent of lend-lease, not 20% from the Americans? China did very well in the war, the ROC contributions to WW2 victory was sadly undervalued and unappreciated by rest of the world.

thanks for your feedback guys and all your words make sense. The chinese were poorly armed and they received less aid and yet they still won. Yet somehow this pisses these ppl off. They just want to find a way to somehow twist it around so that china doesn't get the glory she deserves. Were the shoe on the other foot. Suppose it was india in those circumstances or some ang moh country in the same circumstances as china and emerged victorious they would be praised by them to the skies but yet when it comes to china same results same outcome nope won't praise china.

You see this type of sickening biasness right here that's really disgusting. It's the same type of crap that places india on the same pedestal as china when the cities are run down, corrupted and even more poor ppl than china with worse living standards but somehow ppl will just overlook all of that.

 

[eatshitndie]

but china did invade US force in korea

you don't invade your enemy in korea. you invade korea. or you evade your enemies. :p

 

[sleaguepunter]

chennault developed double team tactic for the AVG aka flying tigers and disallow his pilots to engage in one on one dogfight against the IJAAF. While the P40 was not as fast or nimble compare to most japanese fighters but it had self sealing fuel tank, armoured seat and more firepower. it can also take more punishment and can out dive most jap fighters. most japanese fighters have only 2-4 7.7mm machine guns but the P40 had SIX 0.5Cal Browning MG. a short burst from these MGs can turn most japanese fighter into a flamer.

As for who a better pilot in modern concept, we will never know until both sides slug it out. on paper japan self defense force have 800 plus front line aircrafts and about 350+ modern fighters. i dunno what PRC have but mostly would be the chinese copy of the outdated MIG21 and MIG23.

 

[The_Hypocrite]

thanks for your feedback guys and all your words make sense. The chinese were poorly armed and they received less aid and yet they still won. Yet somehow this pisses these ppl off. They just want to find a way to somehow twist it around so that china doesn't get the glory she deserves. Were the shoe on the other foot. Suppose it was india in those circumstances or some ang moh country in the same circumstances as china and emerged victorious they would be praised by them to the skies but yet when it comes to china same results same outcome nope won't praise china.

You see this type of sickening biasness right here that's really disgusting. It's the same type of crap that places india on the same pedestal as china when the cities are run down, corrupted and even more poor ppl than china with worse living standards but somehow ppl will just overlook all of that.

I do not believe China as in ROC won WWII. It was the Americans that won the Pacific war and defeated the Japanese. China was soo huge and the Japs just got bogged down in a war of attrition. USA gave ROC heaps of support etc but Chiang did nothing as he could not control the Warlords in China + he was happy to sit back and let the USA handle the Japanese. Chiang wanted to defeat the CCP but his inaction brought about his downfall as he did not win the hearts and minds of the people. The CCP fared better against the Japs. The Americans knew of Chiang's uselessness but still supported him as they wanted to tie up Jap troops + the influence of his wife on the US Govt. Just read about Vinegar Joe and what he says about Chiang. In truth, China did not get the glory it deserved because it did not earn any glory. Also please name the ROC's victories over the Japanese. All they did was trade space for time.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

I do not believe China as in ROC won WWII. It was the Americans that won the Pacific war and defeated the Japanese. China was soo huge and the Japs just got bogged down in a war of attrition. USA gave ROC heaps of support etc but Chiang did nothing as he could not control the Warlords in China + he was happy to sit back and let the USA handle the Japanese. Chiang wanted to defeat the CCP but his inaction brought about his downfall as he did not win the hearts and minds of the people. The CCP fared better against the Japs. The Americans knew of Chiang's uselessness but still supported him as they wanted to tie up Jap troops + the influence of his wife on the US Govt. Just read about Vinegar Joe and what he says about Chiang. In truth, China did not get the glory it deserved because it did not earn any glory. Also please name the ROC's victories over the Japanese. All they did was trade space for time.

Well china includes both the ccp and the roc and mind you they were also engaged in a civil war. If you look at that post of mine i was responding to sideswipe and chucky talking about how china beat back the UN and how so little resources were given to china.

Also china's huge size isn't an excuse for the japs getting bogged down. The germans encountered the same problem when they were in russia. This is also the same thing the americans and the ussr faced when they were in afghanistan for eg not the size of the country but the fact that the country had lots of mountains to hide in. The pt of the matter is this you're somehow making excuses for the japanese that they couldn't completely conquer china cos she was too large. In that case we can give excuses for the russians and the americans that they could not totally defeat the taliban cos the region of afghanistan is too mountainous but is this the case? Or how about vietnam had too many jungles and gave the americans too much problems? No. You'll be hearing how tough the taliban is and how they managed to hide inside the mountains and were very difficult to detect. The russians also defeated the germans using the russian winter and spreading the german forces too thin. I don't think the huge size of china excuses the japanese for their failure to defeat china.

 

[Sideswipe]

I do not believe China as in ROC won WWII. It was the Americans that won the Pacific war and defeated the Japanese. China was soo huge and the Japs just got bogged down in a war of attrition. USA gave ROC heaps of support etc but Chiang did nothing as he could not control the Warlords in China + he was happy to sit back and let the USA handle the Japanese. Chiang wanted to defeat the CCP but his inaction brought about his downfall as he did not win the hearts and minds of the people. The CCP fared better against the Japs. The Americans knew of Chiang's uselessness but still supported him as they wanted to tie up Jap troops + the influence of his wife on the US Govt. Just read about Vinegar Joe and what he says about Chiang. In truth, China did not get the glory it deserved because it did not earn any glory. Also please name the ROC's victories over the Japanese. All they did was trade space for time.

yes, it was the United States who literally defeated the Japanese on her own but ROC made valuable contributions in the allies Pacific war victory.

i quote from a statement by US congressman Walter Judd in the postwar period - China Chiang could have had peace on very generous terms with the Japanese ( 1943-1945 ) and saved his people from the suffering, economic ruins, the communists and the war. but he chose to buy us the precious months and years in which we could rebuild our fleet and capture the islands, one by one, and build the atomic bomb and ultimately bring our superior air power and the bombs to bear upon Japan and give her the final blow. this is the fact that we should remember when evaluating our relationship with Nationalist China.

Joe Sitwell was a mother fucker who was responsible for the hoarding of lend-lease supplies more than Chiang. Chennault told Freda Utley that Stiwell had one hundred thousand tons of military supplies uselessly stored at Kunming. Stiwell refused to release those much needed supplies to the Chinese troops desperately fighting at the 1944 4th battle of Changsha and battle of Hengyang which the Chinese lost due to running out of munitions. the first few things that Wedemeyer did after taking over from Sitwell was to release some of the supplies to the under equipped Chinese troops.

Sitwell had a personal vendetta against Chiang. he was so fond of the Chinese Communists that he wrote a letter to a personal friend that was bizarrely revealed in newpapers. the letter mentioned that he was happy to die in combat with the CCP general Zhu De. Chennault, Hurley and Wedemyer who all worked closely with Chiang gave very favorable appraisals of the generalissimo.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Joe Sitwell was a mother fucker who was responsible for the hoarding of lend-lease supplies more than Chiang. Chennault told Freda Utley that Stiwell had one hundred thousand tons of military supplies uselessly stored at Kunming. Stiwell refused to release those much needed supplies to the Chinese troops desperately fighting at the 1944 4th battle of Changsha and battle of Hengyang which the Chinese lost due to running out of munitions. the first few things that Wedemeyer did after taking over from Sitwell was to release some of the supplies to the under equipped Chinese troops.

Sitwell had a personal vendetta against Chiang. he was so fond of the Chinese Communists that he wrote a letter to a personal friend that was bizarrely revealed in newpapers. the letter mentioned that he was happy to die in combat with the CCP general Zhu De. Chennault, Hurley and Wedemyer who all worked closely with Chiang gave very favorable appraisals of the generalissimo.

chennault is just behsong with stiwell because stiwell control what go over the hump. chennault, an airforce commander naturally want all to be supplies for his air groups. he one crazy nut that thought the war can be won by just airpower. stiwell disagree and make the supplies over the hump to be for the land forces. that where chennault anyhow accuse stiwell of hoarding the supplies.

it chiang who hoarding the supplies and that what make stiwell angry. chiang want to keep the supplies for after the war against the red army. in the battle of hengyang and changsha, there not much chinese troops on the line because 15 divisions were diverted to the burma campagin leaving an understrength corp against fresh japanese troops.

other than the artillery and armoured vehicles where the japanese have more and more modern but chinese rifles and light MGs are much better than the japanese. lack of heavy weapons cannot justified the huge loss of lands to the IJA when the CCCP can bloodied US noses in korea. Compare to what the UN forces array of weapons, japanese weapons in WW2 look puny. So why the different standard of the chinese soldiers between the sino-jap war and korean war?

 

[singveld]

you don't invade your enemy in korea. you invade korea. or you evade your enemies. :p

? we are discussing grammar or history here.

 

[Ramseth]

The US was helping KMT, the USSR was helping CCP. CCP won the war for China. Korean war was a war over ideology, nothing to do with gratitude. Besides, China invading US in Korea doesn't even make sense.

China has never invaded Korea. China has helped defended Korea against Japan for some 2,000 years. The line of defence stretched from Korean peninsula through Ryukyu islands (Okinawa) to Taiwan. Korean capital Seoul used to call themselves Han City not for nothing. The breakup of Korea into North and South after WW2 was because USA and USSR both claimed victory over Japan and with the defeat of Japan, Korea became an orphaned colony up for grabs. Same thing happened as in the case of West Germany (claimed by USA, UK and France as allies) and East Germany (claimed by USSR).

Whilst the German situation remained just a stalemate, the Korean situation became complicated with CCP defeating KMT on mainland China turning it into PRC. North Korea has the historical Yalu River border with China. USA was supporting KMT and ROC. No way PRC would let US troops anywhere near there. So when North Korea, communists backed by USSR and PRC, mooted the idea of kicking US troops out of the entire Korean peninsula, PRC happily obliged with aid.

The Russians, very good at chess as they always are, played along but really, only wanted to a divided Korea to maintain status quo and not to help PRC becoming too powerful to become the leading communist country. So it was only half-hearted and calculated aid from the Russians. Both PRC and NK didn't have any navy or air force at that time. The US/UN/SK allies managed to keep SK only because they had navy and air force for sea flanking and air cover.

Take away the US warships and warplanes, there'd be no SK left long ago. The land warfare was won totally by PRC and NK. That's why US parked its biggest fleet permanently at the Yellow Sea and Japan Sea, to protect their interests in SK, Japan and Taiwan, especially after their defeat in Vietnam.

 

[eatshitndie]

China has never invaded Korea.

............

sui dynasty of china was in conflict with goguryeo, predecessor name of goryeo then korea during the period from a.d. 598 to 614. in four wars spanning that period, sui invaded goguryeo or present day north korea. they were called the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th goguryeo-sui wars.

sui's successor, the t'ang dynasty, also attacked goguryeo from a.d. 645 to 668 in a series of wars called the goguryeo-t'ang wars, baekje-silla wars, and silla-t'ang invasions of goguryeo. silla, a kingdom of three in korea at that era (other two being goguryeo and baekje), was allied with t'ang and with the aid of t'ang invaded and destroyed baekje first, then finally the strongest of the three, goguryeo. from a.d. 668 to 676, silla went to war against t'ang after disposing of the other two rivals. t'ang was obviously using the silla alliance as a pretext to try to conquer the entire korean peninsula for its own imperial expansion. but silla held and defeated the t'ang at maeso fortress in present day yeoncheon and chased away the t'ang fleet along korean coasts at the yellow sea. t'ang withdrew to liaodong, and silla expelled all of t'ang's forces from the korean peninsula. goryeo, which is a later dynasty after silla, took its name from goguryeo. korea is derived from goryeo.

 

[Ramseth]

Those were "inivited" invasions when there were internal strifes. Just like the North and South Korea situation nowadays. China, under whichever dynasty or regime, had to pick one side, the friendlier side, and support them. China had never intended to conquer Korea. The tradition went all the way from Han to Qing dynasties until Japan finally won everything it traditionally wanted after 2,000 years of trying and bluffing, Korea, Ryukyu (Okinawa) and Taiwan. Then it got more ambitious and wanted more, Manchukuo (Manchuria). Then it got even more ambitious and wanted the whole China.

 

[eatshitndie]

Those were "inivited" invasions when there were internal strifes. Just like the North and South Korea situation nowadays. China had to pick one side, the friendlier side, and support them. China had never intended to conquer Korea. The tradition went all the way from Han to Qing dynasties until Japan finally won.

not true. sui had imperial intentions on the peninsula, and so did t'ang. it was just that kingdoms on the peninsula were not united that easily invited imperial incursion. division and conquest of neighboring kingdoms was the theme of any hegemon after a brutal civil war, extermination of a prior dynasty and having all provinces and kingdoms under one rule. the military momentum, wrath, bloodthirstiness and energy needed to go somewhere foreign for prolonged campaigns of world conquest in order to avoid trouble at home were too important to pass up. this was true of alexander after he conquered and united greek city states and macedonia. this was true of the roman empire after civil wars among the triumvirate, in which augusta came on top. this was true of genghis khan after uniting all tribes under mongolia. true of hideyoshi after uniting all daimyos in japan (he went to invade korea). and true of han, sui and t'ang. t'ang was more aggressive in expanding in all directions: eastwards to present-day korea, northwards to present-day inner mongolia, westwards to present-day sinkiang, and southwards to vietnam.

the silla "invitation" was an excuse. all scholars of sino-korean history know that. you're of course not a sino-korean scholar. sino-know-all perhaps, but not sino-korean. :p

 

[Ramseth]

the silla "invitation" was an excuse. all scholars of sino-korean history know that. you're of course not a sino-korean scholar. sino-know-all perhaps, but not sino-korean. :p

It's true I'm no scholar. I know what I know but not everything out there to know.

 

[Orion]

the Chinese were helped by Americans against the Japs, right ?



as for the Israelis..................they got superior planes.................but main reason is that Arabs can't fight at all.............



as for the Brits, the Argentines can't fight also lah...................




no doubt, the Germans were the best in WW2................hopelessly outnumbered..............and fighting capable Brits and Yankees...............

Until Pearl Habor, the US been supplying Japan with oil and other raw materials against China.

Actually the Germans overwhelmed the Brits but they had no superiority over the sea and the air. Many polish pilots protect UK at that time and many of them were some of the best.

 

[Orion]

Well china includes both the ccp and the roc and mind you they were also engaged in a civil war. If you look at that post of mine i was responding to sideswipe and chucky talking about how china beat back the UN and how so little resources were given to china.

Also china's huge size isn't an excuse for the japs getting bogged down. The germans encountered the same problem when they were in russia. This is also the same thing the americans and the ussr faced when they were in afghanistan for eg not the size of the country but the fact that the country had lots of mountains to hide in. The pt of the matter is this you're somehow making excuses for the japanese that they couldn't completely conquer china cos she was too large. In that case we can give excuses for the russians and the americans that they could not totally defeat the taliban cos the region of afghanistan is too mountainous but is this the case? Or how about vietnam had too many jungles and gave the americans too much problems? No. You'll be hearing how tough the taliban is and how they managed to hide inside the mountains and were very difficult to detect. The russians also defeated the germans using the russian winter and spreading the german forces too thin. I don't think the huge size of china excuses the japanese for their failure to defeat china.

You may not know this. The ROC actually have a armed forces that are four times bigger than the Japs at any one time. The ROC didnt really need to hide in the mountains like the CCP, it will take the Jap to do a major offensive to fight inland battles and it impossible to move tanks up the hills and mountains in places where railways are not there. If the Jap advance too fast, then they risk encirclement, that is why as the war wages on, the japs lose more and more with each offensive.

 

[Orion]

but china did invade US force in korea

Why is the US force in korea? The Chinese is helping their ally who is being overwhelmed by the US and korea forces and they need desperate help.

 

[Orion]

Chiang and Chennault wanted to win the China war by air and land power together but Stilwell during his time in China refused the air force adequate planes and supplies to realize those plans.

I think you got your facts seriously wrong. Chiang wanted to wear the Jap down and to build up his forces for a CCP showdown. Chiang isn't worry about the Japs, he viewed the CCP as the real enemy. Stilwell wanted Chiang to go on a major offensive against the Japs to answer to his US masters and for his personal glory. But Chiang refused because that was a foolish tactic.

 

[Orion]

Japs are a spent force. When you compare or project military capabilities just look at the size of the country's GDP, talent and mfg capabilities.

Japan has a shrinking population. In 20 years, if both country devote 5% of GDP to military, Chinese will be way ahead. Americans won the cold war because their economy was much larger not because Russian tech was inferior. To match the Americans, USSR spent up to 40% of GDP. That and the cost Afghanistan war collapsed their economy. They ran out of $

Actually the Japs spend alot of money secretly on their miltary force. That is why their economy is sinking. You should read how much they spent on space, air and sea, that is a really scary amount of money.

The Jap currently have the 2nd best operating navel in the world (In terms of production and war readiness, they still lost to Russia). They are forbidden to have a aircraft carrier so they call their aircraft carrier a helicopter carrier (playing with words). Their navals ships, radar systems and submarines are supplied with the latest US technologies, a prestige that is for Japan only. The Japan are now developing their fighters now and when they are ready, they will rebuild it into the tens of thousands. That is the Jap stance. The Japs are determined to have aircraft carriers and fighters at all costs if you do read their papers.

 

[Ramseth]

Until Pearl Habor, the US been supplying Japan with oil and other raw materials against China.

Actually the Germans overwhelmed the Brits but they had no superiority over the sea and the air. Many polish pilots protect UK at that time and many of them were some of the best.

US embargoed Japan of supplies of oil and other raw materials and blockaded Pacific sealanes. That was why Japan raided Pearl Harbor. You think Japan was so free, nothing else better to do even after being bogged down in China? If the supply lanes kept being shut, Japan would lose their main war in China.

Germans had never overwhelmed British. Germany lost both WW1 and WW2 to Britain. The most dire situation Britain faced against Germany was the Dunkirk Retreat and Battle of Britain in WW2. The cause was the surprisingly swift surrender of France, supposedly a world power capable of holding Germany on the European continental front and with that, Holland, Belgium etc. all fell and Britain had to save them. Still Britain survived and turned around admirably.

Germany was incapable of crossing the Channel to pursue the Retreat and invade Britain. So they resorted to aerial bombing with Hitler promising to stop if Britain agreed to negotiate terms for peace. Churchill told Hitler to go fuck spider, the war would end only with Germany surrendering back all occupied countries and terrorities including Germany itself. Hitler told Churchill to go fuck spider himself and continued air raids on Britain.

In the end, Germany lost the aerial Battle of Britain with less than half of Luftwaffe left, hardly able to defend their own German airspace. RAF struck back and bombed Germany almost back to stone age. There was a cost of course. The massive concentration of war effort against Germany on home and European front meant most of the Empire colonies elsewhere were left loosely defended. That was where German axis ally Japan capitalized on.

You may not know this. The ROC actually have a armed forces that are four times bigger than the Japs at any one time. The ROC didnt really need to hide in the mountains like the CCP, it will take the Jap to do a major offensive to fight inland battles and it impossible to move tanks up the hills and mountains in places where railways are not there. If the Jap advance too fast, then they risk encirclement, that is why as the war wages on, the japs lose more and more with each offensive.

KMT and IJA forces were about equal in WW2, about 3 million to 3 million. However, IJA was stretched from China all the way down SEA to Indonesia. On the other hand, KMT was bogged down with CCP forces about 1 million.

Why is the US force in korea? The Chinese is helping their ally who is being overwhelmed by the US and korea forces and they need desperate help.

Korea (or at least SK) is of strategic importance to US as foothold in continental Asia. Otherwise, all US would be left with is the chain of islands, from Japan to Taiwan.

Actually the Japs spend alot of money secretly on their miltary force. That is why their economy is sinking. You should read how much they spent on space, air and sea, that is a really scary amount of money.

The Jap currently have the 2nd best operating navel in the world (In terms of production and war readiness, they still lost to Russia). They are forbidden to have a aircraft carrier so they call their aircraft carrier a helicopter carrier (playing with words). Their navals ships, radar systems and submarines are supplied with the latest US technologies, a prestige that is for Japan only. The Japan are now developing their fighters now and when they are ready, they will rebuild it into the tens of thousands. That is the Jap stance. The Japs are determined to have aircraft carriers and fighters at all costs if you do read their papers.

Except for no nuke and no aircraft carrier, Japanese forces are about equal to to UK today.

 

[Sideswipe]

chennault is just behsong with stiwell because stiwell control what go over the hump. chennault, an airforce commander naturally want all to be supplies for his air groups. he one crazy nut that thought the war can be won by just airpower. stiwell disagree and make the supplies over the hump to be for the land forces. that where chennault anyhow accuse stiwell of hoarding the supplies.

it chiang who hoarding the supplies and that what make stiwell angry. chiang want to keep the supplies for after the war against the red army. in the battle of hengyang and changsha, there not much chinese troops on the line because 15 divisions were diverted to the burma campagin leaving an understrength corp against fresh japanese troops.

other than the artillery and armoured vehicles where the japanese have more and more modern but chinese rifles and light MGs are much better than the japanese. lack of heavy weapons cannot justified the huge loss of lands to the IJA when the CCCP can bloodied US noses in korea. Compare to what the UN forces array of weapons, japanese weapons in WW2 look puny. So why the different standard of the chinese soldiers between the sino-jap war and korean war?

Chiang probably did hoard some lend-lease supplies. Stiwell refusing to release the supplies to Chinese troops and using the supplies as a political tool to force Chiang to adhere to his war demands were uncalled for and despicable. Wedemeyer told Chiang that he would release the supplies whenever necessary. Chiang completely trusted his new US Chief of Staff. there were no more supplies issues. the two eventually developed a great working relationship. soon after his arrival in China, Wedemeyer did an extensive check of all Chinese army equipments and reported that not a single US gun or bullet had gone to Chinese armies east of Yunnan ( don't know what that mean ) with the exception of 500 tons belatedly delivered to Kweilin and Liuchow ( given by Wedemeyer ). source was from Chennault.

Wedemeyer was honest/frank and always spoke his mind on the good and bad of Chiang/KMT. he never mentioned anything about Chiang hoarding lend-lease supplies before and after the war.

the severely under-equipped Chinese troops faced great limitations and difficulties on the battlefield. eg prior to 1942 - 3-4 soldiers to 1 rifle. not enough bullets. 1 light machine gun per company. a few short distance mortars per division. no artillery units for most division, few supplies vehicles per division. few armored divisions. too many soldiers died from malnutrition, diseases and injuries. 2/3 doctors per division. lack of proper medical care/supplies. the condition was much worse for the regional non-central govt armies. quality of Chinese officers was a question mark. half the officers were illiterate? half the officers who graduated from the central army academy during the 1930s were killed in the first 6 months of the war? in 1937, half or less the entire Chinese armies obeyed Nanking orders. China to Japan aircrafts - 1:8? China had a weak or non existent navy. Japan had one of the largest and powerful navy in the world. Japan army equipments standard, i don't really know.