Why the Manchurians could defeat the Ming?

[mscitw]

Dorgon, Regent of the Manchus was probably musing, with his legions of Calvary, he could not take the Forbidden City twice but the rascal bandit king, Li Zhicheng was able to do the impossible within one swift attack. Hence he decided to make a move for Ming China by fomenting infighting among the Ming Chinks while he reap the profits. Dorgon was clever to change his strategy when he realised the Chinks reserved the best when beating up their own kind.

The Japs realised the obvious too late in the game. It was fixated with mainland after the Imperial Army Baboons boast China will fall in 3 months. The Japs could have solved the problem by inciting the Commies to slug it out with the KMT while reserving their efforts to topple the Soviet Union in the far east.

The regime is using the same tactics. Ruler Loong knows the Chinks often fight among themselves if you give them a chance. Hence 3 Rambutans are given the honour of slugging it out while NS Dodger Parent TT is given a sweetheart free ride to the Istana.

 

[Alamaking]

Your threads all very cheem to me, LOL

 

[Ramseth]

Dorgon, Regent of the Manchus was probably musing, with his legions of Calvary, he could not take the Forbidden City twice but the rascal bandit king, Li Zhicheng was able to do the impossible within one swift attack. Hence he decided to make a move for Ming China by fomenting infighting among the Ming Chinks while he reap the profits. Dorgon was clever to change his strategy when he realised the Chinks reserved the best when beating up their own kind.

The Japs realised the obvious too late in the game. It was fixated with mainland after the Imperial Army Baboons boast China will fall in 3 months. The Japs could have solved the problem by inciting the Commies to slug it out with the KMT while reserving their efforts to topple the Soviet Union in the far east.

The regime is using the same tactics. Ruler Loong knows the Chinks often fight among themselves if you give them a chance. Hence 3 Rambutans are given the honour of slugging it out while NS Dodger Parent TT is given a sweetheart free ride to the Istana.

Not a bad analogy but, the main contributor to Manchurian success was traitor Wu Sangui who opened the Great Wall gate. Of course, the Li Zhicheng coup contributed to the disarray in Ming defences too.

 

[eatshitndie]

Not a bad analogy but, the main contributor to Manchurian success was traitor Wu Sangui who opened the Great Wall gate. Of course, the Li Zhicheng coup contributed to the disarray in Ming defences too.

ming started to unravel with jap invasion of korea in the imjin war (1592 to 1598). spent too much on the war and economy began to fail. but most notably, it was the execution of general yuan chonghuan who single-handedly held back nurhaci and his manchu minions. general yuan, after serving faithfully without flinching and defeating the manchus battle after battle, was ingloriously betrayed by his emperor and his scheming yesmen eunuchs to die a death by a thousand cuts. he was literally quartered and butchered piece by piece alive, and his bodily parts were fed to his enemies in the court. with yuan gone, no other general except wu who was yuan's apprentice was able to hold the frontier and the manchu juggernaut. but wu was more temperamental and less reliable than yuan, and credit should be given to dorgon for figuring that out. it was the ming emperor who sealed his own fate and that of the dynasty for being jealous of his most successful and popular general and putting him to death.

 

[myo539]

.... Dorgon was clever to change his strategy when he realised the Chinks reserved the best when beating up their own kind..... Ruler Loong knows the Chinks often fight among themselves if you give them a chance. Hence 3 Rambutans are given the honour of slugging it out while NS Dodger Parent TT is given a sweetheart free ride to the Istana.

If your theory or interpretation holds water, why did the 3 Tans asked for it? No one coerced them to apply to be a candidate. Each one had said that they are of an independent mind. And each one said that they became a candidate on their own accord.

So your theory belongs to a don in some distance Kolkata university.

 

[GOD IS MY DOG]

Not a bad analogy but, the main contributor to Manchurian success was traitor Wu Sangui who opened the Great Wall gate. Of course, the Li Zhicheng coup contributed to the disarray in Ming defences too.

but if not for the Manchus..................Wei XiaoBao wouldn't have 7 wives liao !

 

[goldenmonkey]

The execution and isolation of able generals (among them Yuan, Cheng - family of Chen Gong who later held Taiwan against the Manchus), the deflection of Wu and the uprising of Li ZiCheng are all factors for the eventual defeat, the real cause for the downfall was the incapabilities of (Later) Ming emperors that stretched a few generations. Peasants were left starving (where else would Li assembled his troops? From poor peasants and deflected armies), generals were distrusting of their lord/emperors, and none of the Ming armies could hold the borders except Yuan. Poor diplomatic skills from the emperor/s too.

As some histroians summed it up, the (later) Ming emperors had treated national issue as if they were family issues. They have disregarded the population at large, and never knew what it meant to lose the hearts of the people. That, to me, was the real reason why a much smaller barbarian tribe could have scored one of the biggest upset in history.

 

[hairylee]

The execution and isolation of able generals (among them Yuan, Cheng - family of Chen Gong who later held Taiwan against the Manchus), the deflection of Wu and the uprising of Li ZiCheng are all factors for the eventual defeat, the real cause for the downfall was the incapabilities of (Later) Ming emperors that stretched a few generations. Peasants were left starving (where else would Li assembled his troops? From poor peasants and deflected armies), generals were distrusting of their lord/emperors, and none of the Ming armies could hold the borders except Yuan. Poor diplomatic skills from the emperor/s too.

As some histroians summed it up, the (later) Ming emperors had treated national issue as if they were family issues. They have disregarded the population at large, and never knew what it meant to lose the hearts of the people. That, to me, was the real reason why a much smaller barbarian tribe could have scored one of the biggest upset in history.

They lost the Mandate from Heaven - the Citizenry.

 

[Received_by_Kings]

Dorgon, Regent of the Manchus was probably musing, with his legions of Calvary, he could not take the Forbidden City twice but the rascal bandit king, Li Zhicheng was able to do the impossible within one swift attack. Hence he decided to make a move for Ming China by fomenting infighting among the Ming Chinks while he reap the profits. Dorgon was clever to change his strategy when he realised the Chinks reserved the best when beating up their own kind.

The Japs realised the obvious too late in the game. It was fixated with mainland after the Imperial Army Baboons boast China will fall in 3 months. The Japs could have solved the problem by inciting the Commies to slug it out with the KMT while reserving their efforts to topple the Soviet Union in the far east.

The regime is using the same tactics. Ruler Loong knows the Chinks often fight among themselves if you give them a chance. Hence 3 Rambutans are given the honour of slugging it out while NS Dodger Parent TT is given a sweetheart free ride to the Istana.

That's because the Chinese are mostly quite useless. First the barbarians from Mongolia sacked and overtook the Chinese capital to announce the Yuan Dynasty, and just a few hundred years later the Manchurian barbarians did the same and proclaimed the Qing Dynasty. You let these lesser creatures rule the land and you couldn't protect your tributaries Korea and Taiwan. Seriously? What a joke.

The white pigs call the Chinese chinks probably as an inspiration they got from the rubbish Ch'ing Dynasty as well. So what if the Chinese invented zombies in Qing official garb that reigned in Asian horror movies more than a century later? The shame and damage had already been done!

I also understand that some Japanese while having having high views of ancient China they also regarded China as non-existent after the Ming Dynasty lapsed and it is with probably a very sound reason that they think that way.

 

[Received_by_Kings]

ighting among the Ming Chinks while he reap the profits. Dorgon was clever to change his strategy when he realised the Chinks reserved the best when beating up their own kind.

The Japs realised the obvious too late in the game. It was fixated with mainland after the Imperial Army Baboons boast China will fall in 3 months. The Japs could have solved the problem by inciting the Commies to slug it out with the KMT while reserving their efforts to topple the Soviet Union in the far east.

The Japs have no military or mental capability against the Russians. They won the Russo-Japanese war with the help of other European powers prior.

 

[Sideswipe]

The Japs realised the obvious too late in the game. It was fixated with mainland after the Imperial Army Baboons boast China will fall in 3 months. The Japs could have solved the problem by inciting the Commies to slug it out with the KMT while reserving their efforts to topple the Soviet Union in the far east.

the Japanese army claim wasn't really unrealistic. they had opportunities to force a surrender from the Chinese government within 3 months. when the war started, the well trained and equipped mechanized Japanese divisions should be given the go ahead to overran north/northwestern China. bizarrely, the Japanese fell for the Chinese diversion of staging a battle in Shanghai and wasted almost 3 months there. the 90 days allowed the Chinese to fortify their defense from Xuzhou to Wuhan which was the gateway to central China and Changsha. Japan eventually captured Changsha in 1944, 7 years into the war but they should have been at the doorsteps of Changsha within six months. Once Changsha fell, they can reach Chonqqing.

stupid and cowardly Japanese! if they learnt anything from the Manchurians and Mongolians on the conquest of China, they should went for broke and attacked simultaneously northern/northwestern China as well as southern/southwestern Chinese coasts. they could master enough offensive strength for a two-pronged attack. the deployment of Japanese divisions to China was way too slow as the war progressed during the early stages. the Chinese eventually fell back, regroup and stubbornly held on for years.

 

[vamjok]

the Japanese army claim wasn't really unrealistic. they had opportunities to force a surrender from the Chinese government within 3 months. when the war started, the well trained and equipped mechanized Japanese divisions should be given the go ahead to overran north/northwestern China. bizarrely, the Japanese fell for the Chinese diversion of staging a battle in Shanghai and wasted almost 3 months there. the 90 days allowed the Chinese to fortify their defense from Xuzhou to Wuhan which was the gateway to central China and Changsha. Japan eventually captured Changsha in 1944, 7 years into the war but they should have been at the doorsteps of Changsha within six months. Once Changsha fell, they can reach Chonqqing.

stupid and cowardly Japanese! if they learnt anything from the Manchurians and Mongolians on the conquest of China, they should went for broke and attacked simultaneously northern/northwestern China as well as southern/southwestern Chinese coasts. they could master enough offensive strength for a two-pronged attack. the deployment of Japanese divisions to China was way too slow as the war progressed during the early stages. the Chinese eventually fell back, regroup and stubbornly held on for years.

talk i also know, u know how many battle front they started a not during that time. their resources are already spreading so thin, you think they are able to start another major scale operation on the north. towards the middle of the war, its already evidence that they are no longer attacking but rather defending and is in serious trouble due to limitation of resources. in fact even if US don't throw a bomb to end the war, many believe japan will fall in SE asia as well, reason of their fall.....they are spreading themselves out too thin, its only a matter of time.

in fact if the stupid english commander of sg then just hold on for another 2 weeks, japanese troop in sg would surely surrender. they were only putting on a false strong front when they entered. and they really put on a god damn good show

 

[Forvendet]

talk i also know, u know how many battle front they started a not during that time. their resources are already spreading so thin, you think they are able to start another major scale operation on the north. towards the middle of the war, its already evidence that they are no longer attacking but rather defending and is in serious trouble due to limitation of resources. in fact even if US don't throw a bomb to end the war, many believe japan will fall in SE asia as well, reason of their fall.....they are spreading themselves out too thin, its only a matter of time.



in fact if the stupid english commander of sg then just hold on for another 2 weeks, japanese troop in sg would surely surrender. they were only putting on a false strong front when they entered. and they really put on a god damn good show

There's no way Japan could conquer China whole. 8 to 11 countries joined forces just to force some concessional treaties from China, that's the history I know.



As for Singapore, my great grandfather was involved in the fight and died for it. The British Commonwealth troops and guns were amassed south antipicating a Japanese naval attack on Singapore after Pearl Harbor. The culprit of the fall of Singapore wasn't the British. It was the Thai who opened free passage to Japanese troops for them to take Malaya by surprise in short time. Malaya wasn't defended at all with the British believing that Thailand would maintain strict neutrality and the Japanese couldn't pass unless they declared war on Thailand first and there'd be a massive battle there and time for restrategizing.

 

[red amoeba]

There's no way Japan could conquer China whole. 8 to 11 countries joined forces just to force some concessional treaties from China, that's the history I know.

As for Singapore, my great grandfather was involved in the fight. The British Commonwealth troops and guns were amassed south antipicating a Japanese naval attack on Singapore after Pearl Harbor. The culprit of the fall of Singapore wasn't the British. It was the Thai who opened free passage to Japanese troops for them to take Malay by surprise in short time. Malaya wasn't defended at all with the British believing that Thailand would maintain strict neutrality and the Japanese couldn't pass unless they declared war on Thailand first and there'd be a massive battle there and time for restrategizing.

even if Thai allow them to land at Songkha - there are still opportunity for UK / Australia to organise the defense of Malaya & Singapore.

But they did not, grossly underestimating the Jap.

they thought they cock eye cannot fight - their Zeros blasted the Buffalos out of the sky

they thought 2 battleship running naked is good to stop the invasion but they were gangraped

they thought tanks cannot fight in jungle, they came on bicycles...

in short, they see themselves too up and Japnese no up.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

That's because the Chinese are mostly quite useless. First the barbarians from Mongolia sacked and overtook the Chinese capital to announce the Yuan Dynasty, and just a few hundred years later the Manchurian barbarians did the same and proclaimed the Qing Dynasty. You let these lesser creatures rule the land and you couldn't protect your tributaries Korea and Taiwan. Seriously? What a joke.

The white pigs call the Chinese chinks probably as an inspiration they got from the rubbish Ch'ing Dynasty as well. So what if the Chinese invented zombies in Qing official garb that reigned in Asian horror movies more than a century later? The shame and damage had already been done!

I also understand that some Japanese while having having high views of ancient China they also regarded China as non-existent after the Ming Dynasty lapsed and it is with probably a very sound reason that they think that way.

shit skin you can write all that garbage but here's the facts. Sure there were times that china faltered but what of china today? it rose again you shit skin. Everytime china falls it manages to stand up again. You're a swine piece of shit. You're the type of person that tells the story of jesus chris execution but refuses to mention anything more. You'll say jesus chris was executed end of story but he rose from the dead and it's the same with china. It's like some stupid person making fun of his opponent saying did you know he failed his psle or failed his sec school studies and this is despite the fact that this person is over 30yrs old and got his degree and masters.

Sure china was beaten by mongolia and manchuria but so what? What are mongolia and manchuria today? Both these places can only boast of 1 event and that's it. Btw shit skin mongolia beat your shitland too and not only that the brits did it too.

 

[Forvendet]

even if Thai allow them to land at Songkha - there are still opportunity for UK / Australia to organise the defense of Malaya & Singapore.

But they did not, grossly underestimating the Jap.

they thought they cock eye cannot fight - their Zeros blasted the Buffalos out of the sky

they thought 2 battleship running naked is good to stop the invasion but they were gangraped

they thought tanks cannot fight in jungle, they came on bicycles...

in short, they see themselves too up and Japnese no up.

Agree. Underestimation of Japanese and overconfidence on British part. However, they did fought and died for Singapore, not abandonment like what some made it out to be. You want guaranteed win in war, then serve SAF and and fight yourselves, any guarantee? How could the British or anyone guarantee a win at war? That's, sad to say, a kind of Sinkie mentality, you must win for us. That's what you have now. It's DIY called NS. Happy?

 

[Orion]

the Japanese army claim wasn't really unrealistic. they had opportunities to force a surrender from the Chinese government within 3 months. when the war started, the well trained and equipped mechanized Japanese divisions should be given the go ahead to overran north/northwestern China. bizarrely, the Japanese fell for the Chinese diversion of staging a battle in Shanghai and wasted almost 3 months there. the 90 days allowed the Chinese to fortify their defense from Xuzhou to Wuhan which was the gateway to central China and Changsha. Japan eventually captured Changsha in 1944, 7 years into the war but they should have been at the doorsteps of Changsha within six months. Once Changsha fell, they can reach Chonqqing.

stupid and cowardly Japanese! if they learnt anything from the Manchurians and Mongolians on the conquest of China, they should went for broke and attacked simultaneously northern/northwestern China as well as southern/southwestern Chinese coasts. they could master enough offensive strength for a two-pronged attack. the deployment of Japanese divisions to China was way too slow as the war progressed during the early stages. the Chinese eventually fell back, regroup and stubbornly held on for years.

You type they should went for broke and attacked simultaneously....and not the Chinese should...

Honestly, you really type like you are a traitor and that you are actually a jap. Even the japs despise people like you.

You seriously have no idea how cruel the Japs are during WW2 that cause everyone that they conquar to fight them even if it meant great sacrifices. The japs for all their superior miltary can never conquar China with that brutal mentality of theirs.

You just pretending you know tactics, but in fact, you don't, just like no one believe Russia will become a superpower and communist China can build atomic bombs on their own and defeat KMT with less than superior firepower. The KMT in the 40s are extremely corrupted and equally brutal, do you think paper tactics alone can win you wars, mister?

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

There's no way Japan could conquer China whole. 8 to 11 countries joined forces just to force some concessional treaties from China, that's the history I know.

Wow it took not only that many countries but they were also technologically superior to actually force china to accept unfair treaties. It's odd but ppl always seem to forget to mention these facts. Like fighting 8-11 countries. Is that fair? Even today when the US attacks they want to join forces with as many countries as possible to attack a very poor country like afghanistan. The US could do it alone since they are the strongest country militarily in the world. In fact would the US still stand if 8-11 countries fought it today and mind you the US is the strongest militarily.

Here's a question would the US be able to fend off or defeat 8 to 11 countries fighting it despite being the strongest country in military terms?

 

[Forvendet]

Wow it took not only that many countries but they were also technologically superior to actually force china to accept unfair treaties. It's odd but ppl always seem to forget to mention these facts. Like fighting 8-11 countries. Is that fair? Even today when the US attacks they want to join forces with as many countries as possible to attack a very poor country like afghanistan. The US could do it alone since they are the strongest country militarily in the world. In fact would the US still stand if 8-11 countries fought it today and mind you the US is the strongest militarily.

Here's a question would the US be able to fend off or defeat 8 to 11 countries fighting it despite being the strongest country in military terms?

That's history I know since my great*x grandparents were involved before moving down south to the Straits Settlements. The Manchurian Qing victory was because they were also considered Chinese, albeit a minority, and many Han Chinese nobilities and aristocrats actually supported them overthrowing Ming.

Nowadays, US seeks allies at wars just for show for legitimacy and popular support. The only important and material ally is UK. The rest are just there for show, so as not to look like one or two countries policing or bullying the whole world for it's own interests.

 

[red amoeba]

Wow it took not only that many countries but they were also technologically superior to actually force china to accept unfair treaties. It's odd but ppl always seem to forget to mention these facts. Like fighting 8-11 countries. Is that fair? Even today when the US attacks they want to join forces with as many countries as possible to attack a very poor country like afghanistan. The US could do it alone since they are the strongest country militarily in the world. In fact would the US still stand if 8-11 countries fought it today and mind you the US is the strongest militarily.

Here's a question would the US be able to fend off or defeat 8 to 11 countries fighting it despite being the strongest country in military terms?

US by "joining" coalition is just a mere excuse to carry out their invasion for selfish reasons.

So that they have a legitimate name / reason to invade (eg: endorsed by UN)

They went into Afghanistan without UN mandate - and the world did not stop them.

there is now no need to invade US militarily. Bin laden has gave him a sucker punch with 911 - and US is pouring all her assets into maintaining the so called Homeland Safety.

Mexican illegal immigrants are threatening to tilt the ethnic balance in US ....

And economically, the BRICS and others are showing their might. US's contribution to global GDP has been declining.

But US can still dong, why? By merely printing more and more $$....

they are the biggest fucker around ...