Why NO cry nor Sanction against Indian Missiles?

[Goh Meng Seng]

mr. gms,

reverse engineering is one thing. having 60 years of experience conducting naval flight operations, learning from wars and mistakes, perfecting best practice, and training and equipping a carrier strike force cannot be reverse-engineered. having one or two carriers is one thing. having a carrier battle group is another. china can throw money and men at developing a carrier as large as the nimitz class with copied technology, but it would take them decades (and multiple wars) to arrive at the personnel level, experience and "software" of what really runs a carrier fleet. in other words, it's better to spend the money and resources somewhere else where it's needed most. and me thinks terrestrial aircraft carriers have reached their zenith of their usefulness. it's time to think space-based carriers. leapfrogging rather than following favors the superpower wannabe.

I do agree with you in this aspect and I believe the Chinese is making plans to do exactly this. Its ambitious aerospace programs is a sign of it taking that direction.

However, I would say that we should not underestimate the Chinese ability to build up a credible carrier fleet within the next decade or so. It has the necessary frigates and destroyers coupled with a massive submarine fleet that could incorporated into this fleet formation. The point is that they are not starting from zero but rather, has been progressively building and training up their related fleet formations for the past two decades. As for the software and know how, I guess the Chinese has a shorter learning curve than the established American and Russian fleets.

I believe the Chinese carrier fleet's main objective is to exert pressure on the Japanese and Filipino American bases instead of long range projection that Americans and Russians have used to do. Maybe even Singapore is within their targeting range because we are basically Americans' navy logistics backyard.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[TeeKee]

As for the software and know how, I guess the Chinese has a shorter learning curve than the established American and Russian fleets.

the average sinkies only knows how to install software...

the average PRC knows how to write software..

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

mr. gms,

cheng ho visited the island but did not officially owned it as ming territory. exiles that were sent there were often murdered by the natives or aborigines. it was under dutch colonial rule until koxinga took over while running away from the qing. it was then that it became significant to the ming. it officially became part of fujian province when the qing conquered it. qing, although manchu and an invader of china, became sinicized when they took control of most of china and replaced the ming dynasty. any dynasty that ascended the imperial line in china is regarded as a legit chinese dynasty, including that of the yuan.

I believe Taiwan was already within the first Emperor's (Shi Huangdi) mapping when he sent army out to the sea. Technically speaking, yes, it has been a "politically neglected" island up to late Ming and early Qing. But nevertheless, it was under sovereign claim of China's various dynasties for centuries, even before the formation of Japanese dynasties.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

I will explain to why I was seeking those answers as I found your very sentence in your very first post intriguing. I realised that you did not grasp why they were after Iran and N.Korea. More interestingly your comment about nutjob being irrelevant.

A copy of your first post is below for easy reference and your very sentence is there. I thus thought you might know something that others did not know.

You were also wrong in regard to India and why they were not pursuing India. You had the impression that India was aligned to the US which is patently wrong. Big nations with big populations like China, Indonesia, Brazil, India etc no matter where they are in the 3rd world category will not kowtow to the big boys. What is US going to do to India - invade them. Buying armaments is not indicator. I also indicated they have been leaning towards the soviets militarily especially prior to the latter's disintegration.

Since you got the India equation wrong, maybe I thought you might know something about N.Korea. I asked why about their behaviour such as responsible conduct. I was particulary impressed about your comment about not listening to the media, giving weight that you might know somehting about N. Korea. Finally you conceded that you had no clue.

Iran and N.Korea are in the cross-hairs of the world/UN ( not only the US) because both are unstable ( simplistically put "nutjobs ). Nothing to do with alignment. The US with the biggest arsenal and capability are being pushed to do something. The people who are likely to face the brunt of N.Korea unstable conduct are the Japanese, S.Korea and the surrounds, all with a huge population base and the consequence will be a major human tragedy of a catastrophic nature.

India and and the rest of second tier countries in possession of nuclear armaments have not been seen to behave abnormally or that the country is unstable.

It very simple, you are not about leave the knives in your kitchen exposed when a member of your family is not possession of their marbles. Nothing to do with if they are closer (align) to your sister or you.

Do read about current affair and pick up books along those lines on a regular basis. Makes for interesting reading as well understand why society and countries behave in the manner that they do.

The point is the west will not tolerate anybody who is not on their side toying with nuclear weapons, nutjobs or not is irrelevant.

Speaking of nutjobs, one very important question for all. How do we know that a country is ruled by a nutjob? Because we are told so? Because we are told in the papers, Televisions and radio? But that is akin to being brain washed.

The western nations are pretty much in control of the world media. How can we judge upon a country's leader when there is a serious shortage of unbiased and independent information source?

 

[scroobal]

Firstly the eatshitndie knows his stuff. Secondly, invasion is not usually the aim in projecting capability. As you correctly pointed out - its to exert pressure. The fact that they are investing in Naval when the rest of the world except the US has capitulated in view of the huge cost is telling.

Unfortunately where they like it or not, China in view of rising economic power will have to step in and become the new sheriff in the Eastern Hemisphere to keep rogue states in line. Something new to the Chinese and the concept of middle kingdom, where they preferred not to invade but build a wall to keep the rest out.

As a side issue, I always found Sun Tzu's work accepted in military and business despite the lack of actual war against states very interesting. Might also explain why they chose not to go to war as they had what they need and war might not serve as a benefit.

I do agree with you in this aspect and I believe the Chinese is making plans to do exactly this. Its ambitious aerospace programs is a sign of it taking that direction.

However, I would say that we should not underestimate the Chinese ability to build up a credible carrier fleet within the next decade or so. It has the necessary frigates and destroyers coupled with a massive submarine fleet that could incorporated into this fleet formation. The point is that they are not starting from zero but rather, has been progressively building and training up their related fleet formations for the past two decades. As for the software and know how, I guess the Chinese has a shorter learning curve than the established American and Russian fleets.

I believe the Chinese carrier fleet's main objective is to exert pressure on the Japanese and Filipino American bases instead of long range projection that Americans and Russians have used to do. Maybe even Singapore is within their targeting range because we are basically Americans' navy logistics backyard.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

It is going to be an interesting time ahead for the next 50 years. The paradigm shift in power allocation coupled with a declining US economic might may just spell turbulence ahead for the world, especially in this part of the world. The shortage of critical resources like oil may aggravate the situation.

China will have no choice but to exert itself politically in military terms for competition of resources that would make its economic growth sustainable.

Goh Meng Seng

Firstly the eatshitndie knows his stuff. Secondly, invasion is not usually the aim in projecting capability. As you correctly pointed out - its to exert pressure. The fact that they are investing in Naval when the rest of the world except the US has capitulated in view of the huge cost is telling.

Unfortunately where they like it or not, China in view of rising economic power will have to step in and become the new sheriff in the Eastern Hemisphere to keep rogue states in line. Something new to the Chinese and the concept of middle kingdom, where they preferred not to invade but build a wall to keep the rest out.

As a side issue, I always found Sun Tzu's work accepted in military and business despite the lack of actual war against states very interesting. Might also explain why they chose not to go to war as they had what they need and war might not serve as a benefit.

 

[Ramseth]

Manchurians were considered Chinese (but non-Han Chinese) before the Qing dynasty. Manchuria was an autonomous principality within the Chinese empire under the Ming dynasty and since the Mongolian Yuan dynasty. Half of Mongolia were sinocised and became Inner Mongolia, part of China, the other half unsinocised remained as independent Mongolia. Therefore the quarrel between the Han-Ming and the Manchu-Qing for imperial control over China was more of a civil war between of majority and minority races of the country. Like Wales fighting England to gain overall control of Britain, unlike being invaded by a foreign country like Japan. Manchurians trace one side of their ancestry to the Zhao kingdom (one of the warring states before Qin Shihuang united China and even before the founding of the Han dynasty and racial identity.) Other examples of minority regions are in the southwest like Guangxi and Yunnan. Most of the races there not Han Chinese, but nevertheless still Chinese. They were usually given certain internal automous powers (like state powers in the USA or Malaysia) whether in ancient times or modern times.

Yunnan has one of richest tradition of minority internal autonomy. It was the Dali principality since Song dynasty and awarded to Wu Sangui to up his title to Prince Zhennan after he helped Qing defeated Ming.

So just because a particular region of China is inhabited by non-Han majority, it can't be said that China invaded them. They're still parts of China, just being of different races from Han. Just like French Canadian or British Candian, all Canadians. Quebec or Ontario, all are parts of Canada.

However, there can be questionable areas. What about Tibet? Is it part of China? When PRC was founded, it claimed to base it's border and claims on lands on the Qing dynasty Emperor Kangxi's map, which of course included Taiwan as "inseparable". During the Qing era, Tibet's political relationship was to China what Manchuria was to Ming dynasty. Therefore, they considered Tibet to be part of China. This claim on the Kangxi map also sparked a war between India over the Kashmir border.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

However, there can be questionable areas. What about Tibet? Is it part of China? When PRC was founded, it claimed to base it's border and claims on lands on the Qing dynasty Emperor Kangxi's map, which of course included Taiwan as "inseparable". During the Qing era, Tibet's political relationship was to China what Manchuria was to Ming dynasty. Therefore, they considered Tibet to be part of China. This claim on the Kangxi map also sparked a war between India over the Kashmir border.

Tibet was once the TuFan Empire which attacked the Middle Kingdom as well. I think the Mongolians conquered them and subsequently put them under the control of China when they conquer and started the Yuan Dynasty. Anyway, need to verify this part.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

You are absolutely right. Early this year, the Chinese arrested key employees of Rio Tinto, major iron suppliers for bribery. But the initial arrest was for theft of State Secrets. Clearly their economic interest comes first.

China will have no choice but to exert itself politically in military terms for competition of resources that would make its economic growth sustainable.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[longbow]

As GMS mentioned, China was contented with its rich soil. However, the need to secure energy supplies and raw materials will require China to build a blue water navy. China can no longer happily survive with its good soil.

I agree with the part about the regional sheriff. US, because of budget deficits and the loss of appetite for wars (the long term rehab of its veterans has yet to hit home) may lead to disengagement from foreign adventures. So we will see countries like China taking up the lead in Asia.

 

[longbow]

Tibet has strategic advantage to chinese. Much of the water in China's river originate from Tibet. Control of water source is vital for survival of the country. Press often talks about Dalai lama, freedom etc etc. But strategically China will fight to the end for Tibet (not that it has to because the world recognizes Tibet as part of China).

The future will see a big fight for water. At the moment, china controls much of the water flowing in india rivers. As China uses more of the water upstream there is going to be friction between india and china in the near future.

 

[Ramseth]

I heard that Goh Meng Seng came from the lineage Wu Sangui. He's going back to Yunnan to reclaim his rightful princely nobility and land.