Why Goh Meng Seng allow Nicole Seah climb all over him?

[Goh Meng Seng]

Democracy is about choices. If there is no fish in the pond, there will not be any choices. For the first instance, let the pond be filled with fishes, never mind if they are small fish, bad fish... at least there are fishes. Thereafter, when there are fishes, there are choices, there are progress and it will encourage more fishes, better and bigger fishes to swim into the pond.

Imagine, without the good showing in GE 2006, will there be more and better fishes like CSM swimming into WP and contest in GE 2011? Similarly, even now, more and better fishes are beginning to swim into the pond, not only WP but also NSP.

However, this is only part of the bigger picture.

Goh Meng Seng

Of course, political development can involve getting more people contesting in elections and getting each election strongly contested. But in process you may unintentionally promote people with personal agenda very different from yours.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Tell your boss he is not going to get anything out from me here.

Things are already happening, just enjoy the show. Man proposes Heaven disposes... sometimes even I am amazed by the unexpected bigger impact than calculated but I have no complains.

Goh Meng Seng

I am self-employed. I also do not get any allowance from anyone. In a capsule, I have no boss. No need to be so defensive. Btw, I was just joking. You really think I am keen to know your plans?

I am more interested in WP's strategies. They appear to be heading in the right direction and with their excellent performance and RESULTS, you people in the opposition should learn to emulate them. End of the day, it is not what you do or don't that count. It is getting your way to Parliament. Results is all that matters.

 

[zhihau]

Results is all that matters.

bro,

i hate to tell you this but political awareness amongst the populace is still at post infancy period, haven't got matured political crowd as yet.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I hate to say this but no, other opposition parties should not "emulate" WP; the overall results of opposition would be very different if everyone does the same thing.

Goh Meng Seng

I am self-employed. I also do not get any allowance from anyone. In a capsule, I have no boss. No need to be so defensive. Btw, I was just joking. You really think I am keen to know your plans?

I am more interested in WP's strategies. They appear to be heading in the right direction and with their excellent performance and RESULTS, you people in the opposition should learn to emulate them. End of the day, it is not what you do or don't that count. It is getting your way to Parliament. Results is all that matters.

 

[GoldenDragon]

I hate to say this but no, other opposition parties should not "emulate" WP; the overall results of opposition would be very different if everyone does the same thing.

Goh Meng Seng

Can you explain how WP won a GRC and an SMC and scored highest among the opposition? Joo Chiat was close. It must be their coherent strategies.
It can also be attributed to many other factors. The 'overall results of opposition' has to be the defeat of MIWs. If WP succeeded, surely they must be doing the right things. Or you disagree?

 

[Fook Seng]

I hate to say this but no, other opposition parties should not "emulate" WP; the overall results of opposition would be very different if everyone does the same thing.

Goh Meng Seng

I think your proposition will be valid if you can distinguish the different inclinations of voters in different constituencies and put the appropriate candidate accordingly. Otherwise the results will be exactly as seen in PE2011with varying results for parties on different platforms. Your point of competing in as many wards as possible has some merit as it will divide the ruling party's attention but having 2, 3 or more cornered fights are counter-productive. Also I can't see that having many candidates in the PE will do the opposition any good unless the intention is to frighten the ruling party enough for them to remove this office. But this would not make sense as the opposition has only 7 to 8 % of the seats in parliament and no matter how you dislike this institution, it represents the last and only resort to veto any adverse decision of the ruling party. I am totally confused and I don't know how this game is played. Maybe there is too much creativity here and everything should go back to basics.

 

[Seee3]

.....you people in the opposition should learn to emulate them....

Bro, I think your original assessment of his status is correct - unlikely to be one of the you people. I think his job was to "dilute" the status of certain candidate so that they can be ...

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Fook Seng,

You got it half right.

Contesting all seats will put stress on PAP's machineries, which half of them have been rusty over the decades due to no contests in past GEs. It has come to a point that PAP actually shot themselves in the process and this is part of the success of GE2011. However, no single party, not even WP, could accomplish that. Thus, it is important to have collective effort by all opposition parties.

And you are right, no point of having 3 corner fight. That's my job in NSP .

It is good to have varying results for each parties. Even within NSP, we have varying results for different GRCs and SMCs, so is WP. It will demonstrate the different acceptance level for individual candidates or group of candidates.

Golden Dragon has asked me why WP has won 6 seats but I would rather tell him to look at why WP has lost 75% of the seats it has contested. Yes, other parties have lost 100% of their contested seats but it doesn't change the fact that if WP has done everything right, it should have at least 50% of the seats won. And to think that WP sent two MPs (MP LTK and NCMP Sylvia Lim) plus a high flyer lawyer CSM to Aljunied, it actually had a hard fight by winning 54% of the votes. I was actually expecting something like 55% to 60%. Now, what would happen if CSM was not fielded? Or LTK wasn't there? Could WP win Aljunied at all? This is actually food for thought.

In short, with such a strong team, WP team in Aljunied could only manage the "AVERAGE" vote swing of 11% (or less). East Coast has a vote swing of about 9%. These two GRCs are WP's focus since 2006. These are actually alarming signals.

Of course, NSP has its problems as well. Apart from the 11% vote swing gained in Tampines, surprise gains in Marine Parade and Mountbatten, the other seats all have less than 40%. (Well, Chua Chu Kang is close to 40%).

If national issues like Housing and Public Transport have not been played up by opposition parties (except WP) during the pre-GE years, WP might face even more difficult battles in Aljunied and others. Thus to me, it is not wise to have all opposition parties to emulate WP else we will face problems in overall performance.

And imagine if not almost all seats are contested, PAP would have been focus and concentrate fire at the danger zones like Aljunied. All resources will be mobilized to help in these zones. This was what happened in GE2006.

It would be totally myopic to conclude with GE2011 results that all other opposition parties should close shop and depend only on WP. WP alone will not create enough impact to win more seats.

PE is totally another matter altogether.

Goh Meng Seng

I think your proposition will be valid if you can distinguish the different inclinations of voters in different constituencies and put the appropriate candidate accordingly. Otherwise the results will be exactly as seen in PE2011with varying results for parties on different platforms. Your point of competing in as many wards as possible has some merit as it will divide the ruling party's attention but having 2, 3 or more cornered fights are counter-productive. Also I can't see that having many candidates in the PE will do the opposition any good unless the intention is to frighten the ruling party enough for them to remove this office. But this would not make sense as the opposition has only 7 to 8 % of the seats in parliament and no matter how you dislike this institution, it represents the last and only resort to veto any adverse decision of the ruling party. I am totally confused and I don't know how this game is played. Maybe there is too much creativity here and everything should go back to basics.

 

[CannonFairy]

I am totally lost. But I have to give you credit for standing firm by your views, if they are any way considered main stream.

Fook Seng,

You got it half right.

Contesting all seats will put stress on PAP's machineries, which half of them have been rusty over the decades due to no contests in past GEs. It has come to a point that PAP actually shot themselves in the process and this is part of the success of GE2011. However, no single party, not even WP, could accomplish that. Thus, it is important to have collective effort by all opposition parties.

And you are right, no point of having 3 corner fight. That's my job in NSP .

It is good to have varying results for each parties. Even within NSP, we have varying results for different GRCs and SMCs, so is WP. It will demonstrate the different acceptance level for individual candidates or group of candidates.

Golden Dragon has asked me why WP has won 6 seats but I would rather tell him to look at why WP has lost 75% of the seats it has contested. Yes, other parties have lost 100% of their contested seats but it doesn't change the fact that if WP has done everything right, it should have at least 50% of the seats won. And to think that WP sent two MPs (MP LTK and NCMP Sylvia Lim) plus a high flyer lawyer CSM to Aljunied, it actually had a hard fight by winning 54% of the votes. I was actually expecting something like 55% to 60%. Now, what would happen if CSM was not fielded? Or LTK wasn't there? Could WP win Aljunied at all? This is actually food for thought.

In short, with such a strong team, WP team in Aljunied could only manage the "AVERAGE" vote swing of 11% (or less). East Coast has a vote swing of about 9%. These two GRCs are WP's focus since 2006. These are actually alarming signals.

Of course, NSP has its problems as well. Apart from the 11% vote swing gained in Tampines, surprise gains in Marine Parade and Mountbatten, the other seats all have less than 40%. (Well, Chua Chu Kang is close to 40%).

If national issues like Housing and Public Transport have not been played up by opposition parties (except WP) during the pre-GE years, WP might face even more difficult battles in Aljunied and others. Thus to me, it is not wise to have all opposition parties to emulate WP else we will face problems in overall performance.

And imagine if not almost all seats are contested, PAP would have been focus and concentrate fire at the danger zones like Aljunied. All resources will be mobilized to help in these zones. This was what happened in GE2006.

It would be totally myopic to conclude with GE2011 results that all other opposition parties should close shop and depend only on WP. WP alone will not create enough impact to win more seats.

PE is totally another matter altogether.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[CannonFairy]

But as what bro GoldenDragon says, results is the key.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

But as what bro GoldenDragon says, results is the key.

The most common mistake in political considerations is to take one plus one equals to two. It is never so simple. Most of the time, people tend to think that there is only one factor to one result, that is never so.

If the situation is such that only WP contested in GE2011, will it win 6 seats? Maybe so but it will be a very tough fight, maybe 50.1% in Aljunied but my bet is, it may only win 1 seat in Hougang which it has been cultivated for 20 years.

It takes all the "right" conditions for WP to win Aljunied. If it has won Aljunied with a convincing 60%, then I would be convinced that with or without the combined effort of all other parties contesting in almost all other seats, it could still win Aljunied.

Even some WP members don't find its campaigning theme that convincing. WP basically rides on the anger derived from other issues raised mostly by other parties and the "confusion" arisen within PAP due to the massive competition. For example, if Marine Parade has not been contested, situation may be very different. Apparently when Uncle Goh is under stressed, he cannot control his fire properly.

Some analysts gave the analysis that only party branding matters. They have been grossly mistaken. It takes BOTH party branding as well as individual candidates' strength and public profile for a winning formula, else, WP would have won East Coast GRC as well and could have done better in Moulmein Kallang, Yishun and the other two SMCs in the North. The importance of individual candidates' strength and public profile was also demonstrated both in NSP and SDP as well. NSP has the widest spread of result and apparently this reflects on the fact that individuals' strength and public profile really counts. These results differ greatly from GE2006 whereby the two main GRCs NSP contested (Tampines and Jalan Besar) under SDA has almost identical result.

As a note, party branding shouldn't be over played as well. The fact that NSP could have two GRCs performing better than WP's two other GRCs (Yishun and Moulmein Kallang) speaks volume of the underlying weakness of WP in terms of grooming of individual candidates.

The most interesting comparison would be Moulmein Kallang vs Tampines. Moulmein Kallang is basically previous Jalan Besar, taken out PAP's Lily Neo's stronghold and add in LTY side. Both Jalan Besar and Tampines scored almost identical result in GE2006. cut out Lily Neo's stronghold but yet, under WP, the vote swing is lesser than Tampines.

It would be a gross mistake if WP thinks that they could just depend on party branding and send in their candidates or let them ride into parliament.

The GE2011 result simply show that voters are ever more discerning than ever. You can't just send in unknown candidates under good party brand and hope to score well, least about winning. I hope WP really understand their underlying weaknesses and please lah, don't underestimate the contribution factors of other parties to WP's winning. It is 5 months after GE2011 and it is about time to wake up from over-glorification of its winning.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Can you explain how WP won a GRC and an SMC and scored highest among the opposition? Joo Chiat was close. It must be their coherent strategies.
It can also be attributed to many other factors. The 'overall results of opposition' has to be the defeat of MIWs. If WP succeeded, surely they must be doing the right things. Or you disagree?

WP found a good branding formula which focussed on day to day lives of singaporeans and grassroots activities.

They are also more media savvy that other opposition parties because of how they position themselves to make themselves both moderate and newsworthy at the same time.

As I said before to GMS, and which I also agree with you, results really matter now. If any party still fail to score in GE2016, they will become irrelevant.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Party branding is the most impt factor.

Yee Jen Jong is unknown. Why could he get 49% and nearly unseat the immortal MP?

Every one of WP candidates/teams got > 40%. Even LLL, under a 3-corner attack, also got > 40%. It is party branding first and foremost.

 

[Fook Seng]

The most common mistake in political considerations is to take one plus one equals to two. It is never so simple. Most of the time, people tend to think that there is only one factor to one result, that is never so.

If the situation is such that only WP contested in GE2011, will it win 6 seats? Maybe so but it will be a very tough fight, maybe 50.1% in Aljunied but my bet is, it may only win 1 seat in Hougang which it has been cultivated for 20 years.

It takes all the "right" conditions for WP to win Aljunied. If it has won Aljunied with a convincing 60%, then I would be convinced that with or without the combined effort of all other parties contesting in almost all other seats, it could still win Aljunied.

Even some WP members don't find its campaigning theme that convincing. WP basically rides on the anger derived from other issues raised mostly by other parties and the "confusion" arisen within PAP due to the massive competition. For example, if Marine Parade has not been contested, situation may be very different. Apparently when Uncle Goh is under stressed, he cannot control his fire properly.

Some analysts gave the analysis that only party branding matters. They have been grossly mistaken. It takes BOTH party branding as well as individual candidates' strength and public profile for a winning formula, else, WP would have won East Coast GRC as well and could have done better in Moulmein Kallang, Yishun and the other two SMCs in the North. The importance of individual candidates' strength and public profile was also demonstrated both in NSP and SDP as well. NSP has the widest spread of result and apparently this reflects on the fact that individuals' strength and public profile really counts. These results differ greatly from GE2006 whereby the two main GRCs NSP contested (Tampines and Jalan Besar) under SDA has almost identical result.

As a note, party branding shouldn't be over played as well. The fact that NSP could have two GRCs performing better than WP's two other GRCs (Yishun and Moulmein Kallang) speaks volume of the underlying weakness of WP in terms of grooming of individual candidates.

The most interesting comparison would be Moulmein Kallang vs Tampines. Moulmein Kallang is basically previous Jalan Besar, taken out PAP's Lily Neo's stronghold and add in LTY side. Both Jalan Besar and Tampines scored almost identical result in GE2006. cut out Lily Neo's stronghold but yet, under WP, the vote swing is lesser than Tampines.

It would be a gross mistake if WP thinks that they could just depend on party branding and send in their candidates or let them ride into parliament.

The GE2011 result simply show that voters are ever more discerning than ever. You can't just send in unknown candidates under good party brand and hope to score well, least about winning. I hope WP really understand their underlying weaknesses and please lah, don't underestimate the contribution factors of other parties to WP's winning. It is 5 months after GE2011 and it is about time to wake up from over-glorification of its winning.

Goh Meng Seng

What I really don't understand is that if these campaign contributions by these other parties were so effective, why then are the winning votes cast to WP candidates and not to the others. This is especially surprising that other than CSM, the other parties seemed to have candidates with stronger backgrounds. You say that winning only 55 % of the votes in Aljunied GRC was a disappointment but if you read your mathematics more thoroughly, it was a very difficult thing to achieve, as significant as a 65% win in a SMC. Seems to me like sour grapes.

 

[Ramseth]

There's nothing "only" to apologize for scoring above 55% in Aljunied GRC. There's no credit for GMS or other opposition to claim for "distracting" PAP. It was just a showhand fight between PAP fielding three incumbent ministers and WP fielding the best they have. It was a great result for WP. If Meng Seng you think it's just "only," then get a better result yourself. If you think you contributed to the victory, you should be happy with it.

You're spinning into nonsense nowadays. When talking about how NSP couldn't win any seat, you talk about basic PAP support from civil service, grassroots, inertia and apathetics already amounting above 40%. When talking about WP victory in Aljunied, you try to claim credit by contesting elsewhere to distract them and 55% wasn't a good result. Get real, wake up and face it Meng Seng, the real reason why WP won is because LTK was politically experienced and hardened enough to get rid of you and Gomez. I write this frankly as a friend.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Bro, I think your original assessment of his status is correct - unlikely to be one of the you people. I think his job was to "dilute" the status of certain candidate so that they can be ...

Given his background, I was never comfortable with him being real opposition. Can't blame him though. If I can get paid above 10k for doing that kind of work, who knows, I may also acquiesce. Selling his HDB flat may appear convincing to many, but not for me. Ego and $$$ brought him to his knees. Am sure it has nothing to do with ideology or him being compromised.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

What I really don't understand is that if these campaign contributions by these other parties were so effective, why then are the winning votes cast to WP candidates and not to the others. This is especially surprising that other than CSM, the other parties seemed to have candidates with stronger backgrounds. You say that winning only 55 % of the votes in Aljunied GRC was a disappointment but if you read your mathematics more thoroughly, it was a very difficult thing to achieve, as significant as a 65% win in a SMC. Seems to me like sour grapes.

Actually, in most cases, there is vote swings and some as much as 12% or more for other opposition parties. But they are from lower base and naturally, unable to win any seats.

The cup is either half full or half empty. Depends on how you look at it. As I have said, the winning formula is good party branding plus good candidates. Other parties may not have as good party branding as WP but they may have slightly better candidates in terms of public profile or strength. Thus, they could well perform as well or even better than WP's average candidates but no, they may not win due to the party branding handicap.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I didn't ask for any apology for getting less than 55% (not more than) in Aljunied GRC. I am stating as a matter of fact, there is underlying weakness in WP strategy and model. It would be disastrous to ask all other opposition parties to "emulate" it.

Weakness in WP strategic thinking is pretty obvious in terms of grooming of (average) candidates as well as strategic contest. Mr. Thick was talking about "team player" but that is exactly where WP fails in grooming average candidates. Potential candidates are expected to keep "quiet", toe the line until to an extend that they are so blend. How many WP candidates could voters remember other than LTK, Sylvia Lim and CSM (out of the 23)?

WP also lacks strategic thinking and sense when it comes to choosing Moulmein Kallang over Marine Parade. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when WP insisted that MK is "near" Aljunied GRC when the obvious choice is actually MP. It is just because they believed in the Myth of Uncle Goh's "popularity" that they dare not contest in MP but chose to wrestle their way in taking MK from NSP.

I have proven the point very clearly that they have made quite a stupid strategic mistake in not taking MP instead of MK. They lack strategic sense and courage. If every opposition party is to "emulate" them, then it would really be disastrous.

You may try to discount the contributions made by other opposition parties in helping to form the overall conducive environment for WP to win, that is ok. I guess LTK is more level headed than you. He understands that WP won because it has fielded two MPs and CSM in Aljunied. After 5 years of hard work knocking doors in Aljunied GRC with such a strong team fielded there, to get 54% is actually a reflection of underlying weakness in WP's strategies. He understands that WP's weakness in grooming potential (average) candidates will not bring it far if not corrected.

I guess you only put up selective points here for the sake of argument. I have put clear argument here, it takes two criteria to win, not one. Good candidates plus good party branding. SDP Holland Bukit Timah team has actually demonstrated this very clearly. SDP party branding might be smeared for decades but when it is able to put up a good team of people in HBT, it could break through that "curse", getting 39%. Though they cannot win but SDP has walked out from being the lowest scoring party in GE.

No doubt, WP party branding is perceived as better than other opposition parties. But if it is not for LTK, Sylvia Lim and CSM combined in Aljunied put in one team, they might not win at all. It would be the same as Yishun or MK or even slightly better than East Coast team. Some have suggested that if the two scholars have joined me in Tampines, NSP might win Tampines. Personally, I think we would only have a good close fight, may not win but at least we would have given our best shot.

And it is true for all that civil servants, grassroots, inertia and apathetic voters contributed to 35% to 40%. It is shown in the overall score of either GE or PE. There is nothing wrong with this. Distraction by massive contest is a big contribution factor. GE2011 is the only GE whereby PAP has lost focus in its fight; unlike past GEs whereby it chose and select one GRC and put up concerted effort in attacking that group of candidates. The fire and messaging were all over the place. There is no doubt that PAP has been distracted and its whole campaigning has been disarrayed. I believe PAP in its post mortem has come to the same conclusion as well. Without the active participation of other opposition parties, this would not be possible.

I would respect your myopic view here not as a friend but just a Singaporean. Eric Tan has fought a good fight in East Coast but too bad he has left WP. If WP is going to lose candidates with higher public profile like that, it will have to suffer the same problem next round. This is my frank unbiased assessment of WP.

Goh Meng Seng

There's nothing "only" to apologize for scoring above 55% in Aljunied GRC. There's no credit for GMS or other opposition to claim for "distracting" PAP. It was just a showhand fight between PAP fielding three incumbent ministers and WP fielding the best they have. It was a great result for WP. If Meng Seng you think it's just "only," then get a better result yourself. If you think you contributed to the victory, you should be happy with it.

You're spinning into nonsense nowadays. When talking about how NSP couldn't win any seat, you talk about basic PAP support from civil service, grassroots, inertia and apathetics already amounting above 40%. When talking about WP victory in Aljunied, you try to claim credit by contesting elsewhere to distract them and 55% wasn't a good result. Get real, wake up and face it Meng Seng, the real reason why WP won is because LTK was politically experienced and hardened enough to get rid of you and Gomez. I write this frankly as a friend.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

No, Mr Thick. Party branding without strong candidate, you will get no where.

Joo Chiat is an exception in the sense that there were local issues of pubs and whores which have built up over the years. i.e. it is an outlier example.

Goh Meng Seng

Party branding is the most impt factor.

Yee Jen Jong is unknown. Why could he get 49% and nearly unseat the immortal MP?

Every one of WP candidates/teams got > 40%. Even LLL, under a 3-corner attack, also got > 40%. It is party branding first and foremost.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Only moles, agents and those with hidden agenda will put up views which will mislead parties as of how good they are. Flattery is actually a sword covered with sugar honey.

It is normally difficult to maintain level head when you are sway by "success"; head swell syndrome will kick in and reasoned criticism will be brushed aside. Those with hidden agenda will start to flatter you with all sorts of half truths and skewed logic, reasoning. They will make you think that you are almighty and you have succeeded all alone by yourself.

So beware of those with sword hidden under that thick coat of sugar honey.

Goh Meng Seng