why does a small nation need to spend so much in defence?

[johnny333]

And besides there is a morale issue. People who are fanatical about defending their homeland are harder to break than those invading. Those invading want a quick war and a quick end. The defenders just need to prolong the conflict as long as they can afford to, and wear the invaders down. The end result is that unless there's a tactical shift by the invaders, the defenders will win as long as the war effort is bogged down by intense, stiff resistance.

All the $$$ spent on defence hardware is really a waste. If the PAPs plan is to invade our neighbours, who's going to do it

How many true blue Sporeans are willing to sacrifice their life for the PAP :p

Even if Spore is invaded, how many would resist? The MPs proudly describe Spore as Spore Inc. Many 'lesser mortal' would see an invading force as simply a change in the hotel management.

 

[Papsmearer]

And if we are gonna have nukes, where the heck are we gonna squeeze them in- since Singapore is almost completely urbanised?

Besides, having nukes will spark a nuclear arms race- and President Obama would never allow such a situation, because it would give a massive headache to his Administration. A nuclear South Asia with two nuke powers(India and Pakistan) is bad enough, let alone a nuclear power in this region

Firstly, u do not need nukes. Its too technologically complicated to maintain and operate, and u are at the whim and fancy of countries that u rely on to sell you weapons grade plutonuim, because u don't have your own nuclear power plant,or uranium enrichment facility. U will have to end up buying stolen nukes off the black market and that u have the problem of integrating them into a delivery vehicle. No nuclear countries will willingly sell u nukes. not even Israel. And after use, the target is radioactive for decades or longer, rendering it useless to u too.

Much cheaper way to go is thru a chemical or biological theatre ballistic missile system. SOme form of a modernized Scud. U can obtain chemical or bio warheads much easier, and if they are binary systems, safer and easier to operate. Any number of countries especuially China, and Russia will sell u all the mobile Scud launchers u want. There is no problem squeezing in medium range rockets into Singapore. Ask youself how the heck the Palestinians can constantly fire rockets at Israel from a small area like the Gaza strip, and how come the Israelis with complete air control cannot see them or prevent them from being fired. Some examples of how they can be deployed in Singapore:
- Fixed hardened silos in one of the offshore islands or in Area D/E.
- Mobile missile launchers move around every day, all over the island. They can overnight in a govt. facility such as an army camp, airbase, Changi airport, GEB, etc.
- Deploy on one of our French frigates and they can coast up and down the enemy coastline
- Smaller Chemical and bio bomb can be deployed on 1 squadron of RSAF attack planes

The point is that the enemy can never be sure that they will take out all the missiles in a first strike. Their cities will be turned into a contaminated wasteland from our response strike. Initial one time Cost of this system, maybe $2 billion or less. Annual cost to maintain it, maybe $100 million. SAF planners know this. But why spend $100 million a year when u can con the peasants into $11.5 Billion a year?

 

[Papsmearer]

All the $$$ spent on defence hardware is really a waste. If the PAPs plan is to invade our neighbours, who's going to do it

How many true blue Sporeans are willing to sacrifice their life for the PAP :p

Even if Spore is invaded, how many would resist? The MPs proudly describe Spore as Spore Inc. Many 'lesser mortal' would see an invading force as simply a change in the hotel management.

If the Sinkies don't see the PAP elite lead from the front, than they will not respect them and will not fight for them. When I mean lead from the front, I don't mean sit in a bunker somewhere and look at the computer screen. American elites like the Kennedy family lead from the front. Joe Kennedy Jr. killed in a B-17 raid into Germany. JFK served in the navy and had his PT boat shot out from under him. These Kennedy elites can have any cushy job they want during the war. In fact, they can remain stateside if they want, and fuck hollywood actresses all day long. But they know that if they want to lead their country, it starts with them. Lets see about this PAP elite.

 

[The_Latest_H]

*all of that* [/COLOR]

You forget 3 things:

1. If Malaysia becomes a contaminated wasteland, then where the heck will our raw material imports come from? Where will our water come from, if Malaysia becomes a wasteland? Have you ever considered that?

This is stuff Singapore depends on for survival. If you turn that country into a wasteland, it'd be an empty victory because the stuff would be unusable, and the majority of the local population would be dead. Then its rendered useless.

2. As if you can kill a political idea by inciting mass genocide. If you look at WWII, and see how Nazis killed 6m, in the end while they did kill so many Jews, after the Nazis were defeated, even with smaller numbers, Jews became more politically powerful in the US, and around the world. They are present in the different major influential areas of social life, from arts to business to politics.

3. Besides, as you said, it'd increase the defence budget. And a US$5b increase in the defence budget would mean that less money will be set aside for ordinary people and for the local economy- to grow. What exactly is the point of building and storing this stuff when you can't buy enough food to feed the ordinary citizens? You can't expect people to start eating dirty nuclear missiles don't you?

 

[johnny333]

If the Sinkies don't see the PAP elite lead from the front, than they will not respect them and will not fight for them. .

Even if they lead from the front, who wants to follow? Remember that Sporeans are queuing to leave.

The PAP MPs have millions in property to protect, life long jobs with bonuses, perks that we "lesser mortals" can only dream of. Why should Sporeans stay to defend a place they have little say in?

I suspect many will follow the example set by the "founder' of Spore & collaborate with the invaders

 

[kiwibird7]

S'pore defence budget up 6%
SINGAPORE, battling what is likely its worst-ever recession, plans to increase defence spending by 6.0 per cent from a year ago, estimates released on Thursday showed.

The government intends to spend $11.45 billion on defence during the 2009 fiscal year, the estimates showed.

In the budget, the government took the unprecedented move of tapping into its vast financial reserves as part of measures to fight the recession, Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam said during a speech in parliament.

Singapore, which has one of Asia's most advanced armed forces, spent $10.8 billion for defence in 2008, figures contained in the 2009 budget said.

The money will be used to purchase and maintain military equipment and facilities, and to pay the salaries of national servicemen.

NS is just a SMOKESCREEN to transfer huge chunks of tax payer money funds from the govt's left pocket to the right pocket. Who are the CEOs of those companies that provide maintenance of equipment and facilities in the SAF?

Most of these companies in Singapore or outsourced ones are directly or indirectly linked to some GIC/GLCs anyway. They can name or charge any price in the quotations for services rendered. Who is there to say there are NO kickbacks from any purchases from overseas arm dealers?

NS men pay are so below market rates despite the hefty defence budget. All those extra billions of $$$ is going into somebody's pocket. The question is WHOSE POCKET?

Those billions of $$ could so simply disappear into a bottomless abyss called NS and what better way then to play on the fears of S'poreans in the name of DEFENCE against an enemy from the NORTH that no one would pose any queries on those billion $$$ expenditure!

 

[shelltox]

Becos NZ is not surrounded by Muslim countries. Is that a good enough answer. If singapore do not have a strong deterrent defence force, we would have been trampled all over by our friends upnorth and downsouth. Afterall, we were compare to a little red dot.
When you are in a tough neighbourhood, it is better and more prudent to always carry a very big stick.

 

[kiwibird7]

Becos NZ is not surrounded by Muslim countries. Is that a good enough answer. If singapore do not have a strong deterrent defence force, we would have been trampled all over by our friends upnorth and downsouth. Afterall, we were compare to a little red dot.
When you are in a tough neighbourhood, it is better and more prudent to always carry a very big stick.

Muslims do not need to invade a NON muslim country to take over the country. The indigenous Muslim population in a NON Muslim country simply outbreeds or converts by marriage the non muslims to eventually influence the country via the ballot box without any need for armed invasions.

How long will that take, one generation or perhaps 2 at most? LKY foresaw that eventuality and hence is taking in PRC immigrants in a desperate and futile attempt to balance the scoresheet and buy some time (delay tactics). Problem is, immigrants leave just as easily when the going gets rough (Economic recession) but the Muslim women breed relentlessly even when times are hard.

So a strong army is totally irrelevant in forestalling a Muslim takeover of Singapore. Once the Muslims in Singapore have the numbers, they would join hands with their brothers up north and south to become one big family of Muslim Brotherhood. And the SAF and NS, high tech weaponry would be totally impotent.

 

[imperialarms]

Muslims do not need to invade a NON muslim country to take over the country. The indigenous Muslim population in a NON Muslim country simply outbreeds or converts by marriage the non muslims to eventually influence the country via the ballot box without any need for armed invasions.

How long will that take, one generation or perhaps 2 at most? LKY foresaw that eventuality and hence is taking in PRC immigrants in a desperate and futile attempt to balance the scoresheet and buy some time (delay tactics). Problem is, immigrants leave just as easily when the going gets rough (Economic recession) but the Muslim women breed relentlessly even when times are hard.

So a strong army is totally irrelevant in forestalling a Muslim takeover because the whole strategy is FLAWED.

then we should transfer some of these muslims to NZ where they can feast on the SHEEP

 

[The_Latest_H]

Muslims do not need to invade a NON muslim country to take over the country. The indigenous Muslim population in a NON Muslim country simply outbreeds or converts by marriage the non muslims to eventually influence the country via the ballot box without any need for armed invasions.

How long will that take, one generation or perhaps 2 at most? LKY foresaw that eventuality and hence is taking in PRC immigrants in a desperate and futile attempt to balance the scoresheet and buy some time (delay tactics). Problem is, immigrants leave just as easily when the going gets rough (Economic recession) but the Muslim women breed relentlessly even when times are hard.

So a strong army is totally irrelevant in forestalling a Muslim takeover of Singapore. Once the Muslims in Singapore have the numbers, they would join hands with their brothers up north and south to become one big family of Muslim Brotherhood. And the SAF and NS, high tech weaponry would be totally impotent.

While that may be all true, and I do respect your opinions(because malays do have a higher birth rate), I think its prudent not to accuse local Malays of being complicit just because they are just as Malay as their counterparts over the Causeway.

Malay Singaporeans are just Singaporean as anyone of us, and to accuse them of being unpatriotic- without any proof whatsoever- is a dangerous charge. Besides if they had wanted to leave, they would have done so in massive numbers during the 43 years since the break-up of the merger. And yet they have stayed on.

Because of this, there's no sense of having any political apartheid towards our local Malay population. I don't question their patriotism, as long as they don't question mine. And I see no need to question theirs just because of their race.

Like I said, I don't view those who don't eat pork as a problem. Even I don't eat pork at every turn, even though I was brought up in a family who ate more pork than chicken during dinner time.

 

[kiwibird7]

While that may be all true, and I do respect your opinions(because malays do have a higher birth rate), I think its prudent not to accuse local Malays of being complicit just because they are just as Malay as their counterparts over the Causeway.

Malay Singaporeans are just Singaporean as anyone of us, and to accuse them of being unpatriotic- without any proof whatsoever- is a dangerous charge. Besides if they had wanted to leave, they would have done so in massive numbers during the 43 years since the break-up of the merger. And yet they have stayed on.

Because of this, there's no sense of having any political apartheid towards our local Malay population. I don't question their patriotism, as long as they don't question mine. And I see no need to question theirs just because of their race.

Like I said, I don't view those who don't eat pork as a problem. Even I don't eat pork at every turn, even though I was brought up in a family who ate more pork than chicken during dinner time.

You may not view those who don't eat pork as a problem. That may hold true in the past when most were NOMINAL muslims but the world today is experiencing a resurgence in Islamic fundamentalism from which NO secular nation is unaffected.

My post was in response to an earlier statement with regards the threat of a hostile MUSLIM neighbourhood which require a LARGE conscript army that needed an ever rising defence budget of billions of $$$ as act as deterrence.

The PAP still holds a paranoi and distrust of the Muslims and the Malays which CANNOT be denied. How else can one explain the highly sensitive areas in the SAF that can only be headed or staffed by a Non Muslim Singaporeans?

1. The STRATEGY of stopping the rise of an Islamic takeover or overrun in a hostile Muslim Neighbourhood with a conscript military force spending Billions of $$$ is FATALLY FLAWED in concept. I have already pointed out that the Muslims DO NOT need to take over or control S'pore's sovereignty by MILITARY means.

They simply outbreed their enemies. When they have the numbers, Singapore would simply be ASSIMILATED into the Muslim Brotherhood of the NORTH AND SOUTH naturally- the like minded begets the like minded. The SAF, the conscript army and her expensive toys would be REDUNDANT!

2. A Muslim's allegiance is first to Allah before nation. The Malays of Singapore may not see eye to eye with their Malays up North etc But if it would be foolishly NAIVE to believe that they would help Chinese S'porean NS men fight and kill their Muslim Brethren from the North. Just because they didn't shift up North when S'pore separated in 1965 doesn't prove anything.

If the PAP govt were to stand behind Israel in the GAZA conflict, see how many S'porean Muslims would stand firmly behind the PAP govt or support their Palestinian Muslim brothers? The answer to that would settle the issue of patriotism and loyalties conclusively.

All this multi racial society and the S'pore pledge etc is NOTHING but BS and CRAP. Human beings are TRIBAL by nature, the colour of the Skin and one's allegiance to one's religious beliefs come before any patriotism or loyalties to a pile of inanimate earth demarcated on a map and arbitarily labelled a country with a given name.

For you see, borders can change, govts come and go, countries can be renamed, National Anthems and flags likewise. But WHAT remains most constant is one's ethnicty (colour of the skin) and religious beliefs (even more so for the zealots and fundies)

 

[The_Latest_H]

Then its better to foster better relationships through diplomacy and get-together joint projects isn't it? It would bring all three countries closer together and make it harder for anyone to think of a physical war, or even a Cold War.

That's why I find it highly suspicious that some here want to increase the defence budget even more, when they are already complaining about the current amount the government has allocated. I mean, our country isn't the US who will spend US$100b on their defence budget without blinking.

We still have to import food from Malaysia and Indonesia. Even ships bringing in food from Japan, South Korea, Australia and China(including Taiwan and HK) have to go through Malaysian and/or Indonesian waters. If the two countries shut down passage, Singapore will easily starve to death.

So in the end, a re-organising and re-allocation of resources(in personnel, in financial means and in equipment) in the defence budget and in the armed services are needed. A de-politicisation process of the armed services is also needed. There should be more diplomacy by the Foreign Ministry, and yes less commentary from our leaders in the current government(for once, LKY, please do keep quiet about Malaysia) in the personal political issues of our neighbours; leave that to the foreign magazines published by Asians and westerners alike.

 

[johnny333]

then we should transfer some of these muslims to NZ where they can feast on the SHEEP

Won't work lah, it is easier to get into Spore than NZ

I know an angmo who is considered an FT in Spore. This FT has a malay wife. You can tell that he doesn't like chinese by the people he surrounds himself with, Malays.

The chinese employees under him get really frustrated because its ok for him & the Malay employees to be laid back, but they(Chinese) are expected to be on the ball. What really irritates them is that there he is openly criticising the chinese for being kiasu, while at the same time he practises a double standard for the Malays & other angmo colleagues

 

[cobragold]

While that may be all true, and I do respect your opinions(because malays do have a higher birth rate), I think its prudent not to accuse local Malays of being complicit just because they are just as Malay as their counterparts over the Causeway.

Malay Singaporeans are just Singaporean as anyone of us, and to accuse them of being unpatriotic- without any proof whatsoever- is a dangerous charge. Besides if they had wanted to leave, they would have done so in massive numbers during the 43 years since the break-up of the merger. And yet they have stayed on.

Because of this, there's no sense of having any political apartheid towards our local Malay population. I don't question their patriotism, as long as they don't question mine. And I see no need to question theirs just because of their race.

Like I said, I don't view those who don't eat pork as a problem. Even I don't eat pork at every turn, even though I was brought up in a family who ate more pork than chicken during dinner time.

Tell that to LKY, he was the one who said that he did not trust them to lead and hold a machine gun in their hands, his son also said this before, can our great leader be wrong.Before, all malay cannot do NS in a combat unit,only become VC, you remember this, even now they are allowed to do NS in selected places and not in very sensitive areas. I believe none in Air force, navy and armour units that are combat ready. So how can they be equal to the rest of US, when the leadership of PAP does not trust them. Their muslim MPs are paid alot to look the other way.

To counter the muslim threat he allows pinoys into sg and you check their IC and you will see that the race is Malay, as all the south east asian original people are actually malay, but not muslims. In this way he is actually accounting for the equal population status to stay. He also imports indians to help shore up the indian population and most surely allow the chinese from PRC to come in and beef up the chinese pop. But without the actual import of such people the malay pop will eventually become very much more then the rest.

 

[The_Latest_H]

I have always believed that if you continuously outreach your hand in sincerity, people will respond similarly- in one way or another- and with time.

That's why I have doubts about top leaders, anywhere in the world, who use race to cast doubt on the loyalty of the minority races to the country. I mean there have been examples in history when during WWII for example, Japanese Americans were interned in isolated camps by FDR- only to prove themselves wrong, when platoons of Japanese-American soldiers fought well in Italy against the Axis powers, and many won bravery medals.

The same was for the blacks, who were segregated, and yet fought bravely in WWII. I'm sure Jesse Owens, who shamed Hitler in the 1933 Olympics was running for an America which still discriminated people of his skin, and not for Africa.

I think local Malays are loyal; just that they have been given short shrift by the government. That's why while Malays have been progressing in areas like education, and in their careers, compared to the Chinese and Indian local populations, they still have a long way to go. These things have to rectified, and in return if they believe that there's more mutual respect between the government and the malays, they will respond better- and not as Malays only but also as fellow Singaporeans.

 

[Loofydralb]

Becos NZ is not surrounded by Muslim countries. Is that a good enough answer. If singapore do not have a strong deterrent defence force, we would have been trampled all over by our friends upnorth and downsouth. Afterall, we were compare to a little red dot.
When you are in a tough neighbourhood, it is better and more prudent to always carry a very big stick.

Provided you intend to use the stick.

In Singapore's case, they have no intention of ever using that stick. Cos they know we lose even when we win. Just extend your scenario planning toward the conditions after the win. Don't let your imagination stop at the military side of thing. Political, social, economic, and more have to be taken into account.

LKY, the bastard could not care less if we entered into a war or not, cos win or lose, he will be in a bunker or some other foreign country, depending we win or lose.

 

[leetahbar]

I have always believed that if you continuously outreach your hand in sincerity, people will respond similarly- in one way or another- and with time.

not all will respond similarly. some would just take advantage and exploit the situation to their own benefits one of the reasons why wars erupted.

just take a good look at some of the forummers here. a simple discussion can erupt into verbal barrages of insults and all sorts of hooliganisms. it's a good indicator what would happen simiarly in the real world.:(

 

[mscitw]

Pork barrels for mindef scums who are quick to kill NSmen, quicker to deny NSmen of compensation and more money to build floating coffins after numerous undisclosed 'training' accidents.

 

[eErotica69]

They have to pay their cronies and high flyers Flyer's salary !

And to continue the scholar's dream of non-sustainable living at expense of poor farks citizens/sinkies.

Wah, this forum got a lot of Matland dogs hor?

 

[The_Latest_H]

not all will respond similarly. some would just take advantage and exploit the situation to their own benefits one of the reasons why wars erupted.

just take a good look at some of the forummers here. a simple discussion can erupt into verbal barrages of insults and all sorts of hooliganisms. it's a good indicator what would happen simiarly in the real world.:(

That's true. But its also true once it erupts on that point, many people- minus the trolls- will not come back if they see a verbal assault coming out from many points.