What does it profit a man if he wins the whole world but loses his own soul ?

[IsapKonek]

How do you know there is no soul ? Why are you so willing to take the risk of eternal condemnation ?

Can you show me what is a soul?

 

[Toronto]

Hi Toronto,
Nevertheless, thank you so much for your openness to allow me to share views here and for discussion.

Dear Missionary,
Please don't say that, this is an open forum and I am also not the owner.

I am meaning you appeared to me at 1st impression to be not a nasty Xtian that would condemn pagani being like me to hell either to appease your ego or to affirm your salvation. Based on that impression, I was welcoming you as a fellow forumner and a sparring opponent. So my 1st impression was right.

Nevertheless, do expect I would make some fun and post certain comments that are not to your liking.

If the religion has worked for you to become a better person, that is good.

 

[drifter]

Brother Drifter, you are not searching hard enough.

The Bible says to take the narrow road. The wide road is where many people will choose. True Christianity is a hard life. It is the opposite of the 'Health and Wealth' version propagated by many people nowadays.

Love your enemies. God requires this of me. This is hard. Care for your wife as much as your care for your own body. This is what God requires.

God is love. God does not require you to do things that will harm yourself. Read the Bible, get to know God before making premature judgements.

Above all, it is a message of grace. The Bible says "salvation through grace and not by works, lest men may boast .... "

Grace means it is a free gift from God. You do not have to earn your way to salvation, but only believe.

Bro , actucally I like to debate with you then those religion freak that snake around .

bro , let me give u an example ... If you takeout the word god and use condom monster instead in the bible .. Would u actucally believe it ? Now , the condom monster is also invisible ..he also tell you many nice things and teaches you " moral " promise you heaven , and punish you with hell . Do you believe in it ? Do you need to search hard enough ? Bro , certain things on earth even you search hard enough if it does not exists means it dotes not exists .

Bro the bible also say many nasty things in the Old Testament . Please check my post for 365 days of evil teaching from the bible . Of course the bible also teach many good things . But that do not means that god is real isn't it ?

 

[drifter]

Dear Missionary,
Please don't say that, this is an open forum and I am also not the owner.

I am meaning you appeared to me at 1st impression to be not a nasty Xtian that would condemn pagani being like me to hell either to appease your ego or to affirm your salvation. Based on that impression, I was welcoming you as a fellow forumner and a sparring opponent. So my 1st impression was right.

Nevertheless, do expect I would make some fun and post certain comments that are not to your liking.

If the religion has worked for you to become a better person, that is good.

Yes he's a nice guy for debating . We don't want to pull down his faith but at the same time we want to spread the truth .

 

[Toronto]

Hi Toronto,

I believe you have, along the way, been put off by the very 'churchy' facade of the followers. They pepper their greetings with "Hey brother .... sister ....God bless .....etc "

I have a very nasty experience from a Gook during my army days. He was working hard on manipulating my sense of filial piety to convert me by saying: "If I don't convert, my father and mother would go to hell"...

I guess Heaven must be very void before the arrival of JC or the time of formation of protestant christianity. Before the arrival of the first catholic Jesuit to the eastern world, our forefather from india and china were all in Hell?
That religion logic don't make sense.

If there were a super natural being, why would he need a very specific religion to support his existance?
Why would he need an evangelist? He would be more effective in making direct communication rather through an evangelist. It don't make sense.

 

[drifter]

I really have no problem with ppl just wanted to use bible to be a better person but please do not say that god is real ..

 

[Missionary]

Dear Missionary,
Please don't say that, this is an open forum and I am also not the owner.

I am meaning you appeared to me at 1st impression to be not a nasty Xtian that would condemn pagani being like me to hell either to appease your ego or to affirm your salvation. Based on that impression, I was welcoming you as a fellow forumner and a sparring opponent. So my 1st impression was right.

Nevertheless, do expect I would make some fun and post certain comments that are not to your liking.

If the religion has worked for you to become a better person, that is good.

Hi Toronto,

I was a through-and-through sinner. What right do I have to condemn anyone ?

In fact, sometimes I wake up from my sleep thinking about all the bad things I have done, things that I have said and things that I have filled my mind with ....... I feel so ashame of myself.

The Bible says "... But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea...."

Take me as a punching bag if it makes you happy, but please keep searching. Read the Bible in its totality.

 

[drifter]

I also used to be " lost " when I was young . Been to quite a number of religious class just to search for an answer . But as I grew wiser , and start to notice the things around me happen .. I start to question god .. Are they even real ? . Been through a lot , the good and the bad . I finally realize that we ourself can make the different in our own life .. Without any help from the invisible man .

 

[Missionary]

Bro , actucally I like to debate with you then those religion freak that snake around .

bro , let me give u an example ... If you takeout the word god and use condom monster instead in the bible .. Would u actucally believe it ? Now , the condom monster is also invisible ..he also tell you many nice things and teaches you " moral " promise you heaven , and punish you with hell . Do you believe in it ? Do you need to search hard enough ? Bro , certain things on earth even you search hard enough if it does not exists means it dotes not exists .

Bro the bible also say many nasty things in the Old Testament . Please check my post for 365 days of evil teaching from the bible . Of course the bible also teach many good things . But that do not means that god is real isn't it ?

The Bible is not easy to read if you compare it to a novel.

The Old Testament has to be read in the proper context. Even many christians and churches interpret it so wrongly. The 'health and weath' church movement is one big misinterpretation of many verses in the Bible.

I know many christians and even pastors love to take a single verse out of the Bible and expound on it, without knowing and even explaining the context. Many even use these verses to try to achieve their own selfish agendas.

I will try my best to discuss with you, to the best of my abilities. Condemn me if you want to. Insult me too. But please keep searching.

 

[drifter]

The Bible is not easy to read if you compare it to a novel.

The Old Testament has to be read in the proper context. Even many christians and churches interpret it so wrongly. The 'health and weath' church movement is one big misinterpretation of many verses in the Bible.

I know many christians and even pastors love to take a single verse out of the Bible and expound on it, without knowing and even explaining the context. Many even use these verses to try to achieve their own selfish agendas.

I will try my best to discuss with you, to the best of my abilities. Condemn me if you want to. Insult me too. But please keep searching.

You are different from those religious freak , and I will not condemn or insult you .. I just wanted a good clean debate with you . Yes I do agree with u the bible is not easy to read cause I used to read it too . IMHO , the bible in fact all religions do have different interpretation for different ppl .. That's why I always said the ppl who invented religion are very smart .. They tell you a story and you do your own interpretation . Be it good or bad the inventor will not hold any responsibility ...yet they will blame it on the readers . for this I must take my hats off ...

 

[Missionary]

I also used to be " lost " when I was young . Been to quite a number of religious class just to search for an answer . But as I grew wiser , and start to notice the things around me happen .. I start to question god .. Are they even real ? . Been through a lot , the good and the bad . I finally realize that we ourself can make the different in our own life .. Without any help from the invisible man .

I agree with you on the bold part of your sentence.

Let me share with you a portion of my adult life history, if you don't mind.

I went through life as you did, searching for answers. When I was in church many years ago, I was feeling a little uneasy with some of the teachings. Mostly it was because of bad teachers and the prevailing church culture in my church. I was from a broken family. Thus, I have lots of problems and lots of questions which were unanswered.

With the understanding that I had in church, I was asking myself "If everything is to be handed to God, what does it make me ?"

Being from a troubled childhood, I had very little confidence .......very little self-assurance. A confused and mal-adjusted young person. So, unanswered questions like that did not help at all. In fact, I didn't quite like the prospect of 'handing everything to God' at that point of my life. I didn't even like what I was then.

And then I started searching. Met people in the army and I started reading self-improvement books that they recommended. I gobbled up everything I could lay my hands on. From Anthony Robbins to Napolean Hill to Dale Carnegie. I read voraciously, especially during guard duties.

Guess what ? I felt a surge of understanding and my confidence grew. At that time, I was thinking, I didn't need God and all that 'churchy' stuff.

I learnt the concept of 'intense desire' and dogged persistence from 'Think and Grow Rich' by Napolean Hill, I became a businessman and made alot of money, relatively. At that time, the income tax I paid was more than my peers' annual salaries.

Through 'How to win friends and influence people' by Dale Carnegie, I learnt people skills to grease any negotiations. Through 'Awaken the Giant Within', I was introduced to the field of neuro-linguistic conditioning and the broad area of psychology for peak performance.

At that time, I thought I found 'me'. The 'me' that I liked. Confident, cool and suave. Who needs God ? At that time, I believed that I was the captain of my soul, the decider of my fate ........ just like many of you guys here. And for a former poor and troubled child, having found wealth, my lifestyle spun out of control.

Many times, I thought I could still hear God's gentle and soft prompting for me to repent and turn back. Defiantly, I ignored. The type of arguments that you guys use in this section of the forum, I have used them ...... to block God out of my life.

Mercifully, God engineered events in my life to bring me back to his fold. I am grateful to God for gently ushering me back.

It is getting late now. I will continue another time. Thanks.

 

[Missionary]

You are different from those religious freak , and I will not condemn or insult you .. I just wanted a good clean debate with you . Yes I do agree with u the bible is not easy to read cause I used to read it too . IMHO , the bible in fact all religions do have different interpretation for different ppl .. That's why I always said the ppl who invented religion are very smart .. They tell you a story and you do your own interpretation . Be it good or bad the inventor will not hold any responsibility ...yet they will blame it on the readers . for this I must take my hats off ...

Bro,

People who are deep into sociology will say that religion is a manifestation of 'humans having needs in the midst of uncertainty'
Amongst fishermen, there is the sea-god, fish-god ......etc

If you watch the chinese movie 红高粱, there is the wine-god amongst wine-brewers, in one sequence of the movie.

And if you care to investigate, evidence of god-worshipping is everywhere in the history of many civilisations.

Why am I using this argument to slap myself on the cheeks ?

This is to share with you that religion is not 'an invention in the industrialization sense of the word', but arises out of human needs and longings. Of course, there are people like the 'health and wealth' preachers who mislead Christians for their own selfish profits. And so many other religious teachers, village witch-doctors etc ...making use of human insecurity and frail mental faculty for their own advantage. Also included, the blind leading the blind.

We all have thoughts about death. Death scares the shit out of many people. Especially during peace time in this part of the world where living can sometimes be good and life is not so cheap.

But man, since time immemorial have thought about life and death and what is it after death. God put this longing in humans so that we will not go down the path of not searching for meaning and not finding God.

 

[drifter]

Bro as I said earlier , and I always said to all my friends whether they are having good life or bad . I always told them life is random .. good and bad things happen during their life time . If they are having a good life now , don't be too happy about it cause shits do happen to anybody and good things will happen to those who fell too . That's the beauti of life . We don't know what we will get . again , it does not related to any supernatural stuffs .

Have a good sleep . Good nite and hope u will come in to religious folder often .

 

[drifter]

Bro,

People who are deep into sociology will say that religion is a manifestation of 'humans having needs in the midst of uncertainty'
Amongst fishermen, there is the sea-god, fish-god ......etc

If you watch the chinese movie 红高粱, there is the wine-god amongst wine-brewers, in one sequence of the movie.

And if you care to investigate, evidence of god-worshipping is everywhere in the history of many civilisations.

Why am I using this argument to slap myself on the cheeks ?

This is to share with you that religion is not 'an invention in the industrialization sense of the word', but arises out of human needs and longings. Of course, there are people like the 'health and wealth' preachers who mislead Christians for their own selfish profits. And so many other religious teachers, village witch-doctors etc ...making use of human insecurity and frail mental faculty for their own advantage. Also included, the blind leading the blind.

We all have thoughts about death. Death scares the shit out of many people. Especially during peace time in this part of the world where living can sometimes be good and life is not so cheap.

But man, since time immemorial have thought about life and death and what is it after death. God put this longing in humans so that we will not go down the path of not searching for meaning and not finding God.

Yes I agree we all have thoughts about death whether we believe in god or not . death is very scary and nobody can escape death . But I learnt it my own way to accept death cause its a natural thing . sometimes I also wonder why must I needed so much money if I can't escape death ... but I have come up with a theory ... That since I'm living now I have to make the best out of life ... And leave this world with no regrets and with good memories in my death bed .

Man always afraid of death since human civilization . And the person who invented god know that very well that's why he create made to believe life after death to mellow things out .

 

[Toronto]

The early churches were the anti-thesis of the modern versions in the form of City Harvest, New Creation Church, FCBC etc ........These churches blindly imported deviant versions from the US. Which brings me to another important point .....

After experiential, it should be followed by intellectual .... otherwise, the beliefs will go haywire ...... and end up becoming like all the mal-practising churches.

Missionary,
Reading what you said about their churches, the Christian fundamentalists and Catholics could cast stones at your. Aren't you too afraid?

 

[kryonlight]

I was a through-and-through sinner. In fact, sometimes I wake up from my sleep thinking about all the bad things I have done, things that I have said and things that I have filled my mind with ....... I feel so ashame of myself.

There are no sinners. There are no souls. There is no God to seek forgiveness from. There are only skillful and unskillful mental states which are fleeting in nature. Focus your mind on developing those skillful mental states and abandon those unskillful mental states. You will get a better night's sleep.

What's done can't be undone, so don't dwell on it. To keep reminding yourself that you are a sinner only reinforces the negative mental feedback loop.

 

[drifter]

Missionary,
Reading what you said about their churches, the Christian fundamentalists and Catholics could cast stones at your. Aren't you too afraid?

I think bro missionary is a smart man he seems to know what's right and what's wrong but too bad even the smartest man will fall for the unknown .

 

[Toronto]

I think bro missionary is a smart man he seems to know what's right and what's wrong but too bad even the smartest man will fall for the unknown .

bro drifter,
bro missionary is a thinking christian. Not only continue to think, also question. Not sure he has read the entire bible.

After experiential, it should be followed by intellectual .... otherwise, the beliefs will go haywire ...... and end up becoming like all the mal-practising churches.

Intellectual = Questioning + Thinking

 

[drifter]

bro drifter,
bro missionary is a thinking christian. Not only continue to think, also question. Not sure he has read the entire bible.






Intellectual = Questioning + Thinking

Bro , i like thinking Christian .. At Least they don't talk nonsense .

 

[Missionary]

I have a very nasty experience from a Gook during my army days. He was working hard on manipulating my sense of filial piety to convert me by saying: "If I don't convert, my father and mother would go to hell"...

I guess Heaven must be very void before the arrival of JC or the time of formation of protestant christianity. Before the arrival of the first catholic Jesuit to the eastern world, our forefather from india and china were all in Hell?
That religion logic don't make sense.

If there were a super natural being, why would he need a very specific religion to support his existance?
Why would he need an evangelist? He would be more effective in making direct communication rather through an evangelist. It don't make sense.

Hi bro,

Your experience in the army with someone who tried to manipulate your feelings through fear is indeed regretable. I have experienced such things too.

When I go to church, I am usually vulnerable. I am vulnerable because I let my guard down. While I am a survivor outside, I am usually naive inside the church. After having gone through several experiences, nowadays, when I go to church and interact with people inside, my thinking is this:

The difference between christians and non-christians is ...... christians seek forgiveness from God. But that doesn't make them automatically better people. They will try to be better people. But at any point in time, there are good people and there are not so good people in the churches. It will be useful for you to think that christians are sick, and they need a doctor. So, they are not perfect ..... just yet.

In Matthew 9:11-13:

When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners' ?"
On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."