The Ten Commandments

[Toronto]

“We are conditioned by the mass media and the infamous historical event relating 'Black Slavery' have conditioned us to believe all slavery are bad.”

What are the good cases of slavery?




A lie is an expressed attempt to project something that is not factual into reality to produce a desired effect.

 

[Toronto]

“By way of illustration, many of us - including professionals like accountants, engineers, etc are slaves.”

That is very metaphorical statement. A very lame attempt to down-play and stir away from main issue of debate.
Some bread-earners have little choice(or no choice) because they a family to support. You should have heard of stories of low-income earners struggling with double jobs. Others have chosen to go into this kind of self-salvery(metaphorically) for materialism, like to acquire an expensive sports car. They have chosen to be slaves(metaphorically). The later type, they have the free will to decide. Your examples have little relevancy to the both the bibilical Slavery and Slavery motivated by religion doctrines.

What is a metaphor?
A metaphor is a comparison between two unlike things not using the word “like” or “as” to make the comparison.
Example: “In capitalism, money is the life blood of society and charity is the soul.”




A lie is an expressed attempt to project something that is not factual into reality to produce a desired effect.

 

[Toronto]

“Having said all these, you have to read in the right context and you must go to the historical background in order to understand the true meaning.”

You made claims but unable to bring out the historical background you mentioned.

 

[Toronto]

“We must refraining from quoting one verse here, one verse their..”

You should rightfully and acted more fairly throw this statement to the believers(including clergy, priests, pastors) first on why they cherry-pick the verses of the Bible even without explaining the context.

I am surprised you direct this statement at non-believer. You ever complain when you co-believers(catholics and evangelists) “quoting one verse here, one verse there”?


“Return to caesar what is caesar's and to god what is god's”
Moderated and adulterated: “Return to believer what is believer’s”

 

[Toronto]

“If you are not prepared, your destination can be worse than the worst slaves that the world has ever come across.”

Typical of the constant threat of "eternal- condemnation" that believers like to administer on non-believers, especially when they can’t win an argument. Before you applied to others, have you applied to your own paganic forefathers and people closely related to you?


Remember, John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.



It is interesting to see the behavioral change of a believer when the bitter medicine is reversed.

 

[Toronto]

“Whether I have called the name of God in vain or not is not for you to decide.”

I have already pre-made my disclaimer, as I know you are going to react strongly than you will normally post, when the bitter medicine of condemnation is reversely back on you.

Secondly, did I accuse you on this thread of calling the God in vain? You are simply trying to downplay and shifting my points. ‘Calling the name of God in vain” is the mildest of the 10 commandments. It also has the effect of portraying yourself as a victim.



A lie is an expressed attempt to project something that is not factual into reality to produce a desired effect.

 

[Toronto]

“Are you willimg to let Jesus take your place of condemnation?”

Are you trying to tell the readers that Christianity(or rather Catholicism) is a religion of self-ism? Believers would want others including Jesus to sacrifice for them?

How about believers sacrificing for Christ's sake?

In the corporate world, there are many horror stories of Christians stepping on others to climb the corporate ladder? Aren’t these believers practicing 'letting others take the place of condemnation'(metaphorically)? What taught them?

 

[Toronto]

“But if you are willing to let Jesus take you place of condemnation, you can live eternally like prince (or princess) in the heaven home that God has prepared for His true believers.”

It is some pretentious Christians that turned many people off.
Since you issue the call of Christ, rightfully you need to explain the readers these verses:

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in the son of man in whom there is no help.

Matthew 10:37 Jesus said: Whoever loves his father, mother, son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 23:9 Jesus said: Call no one on Earth your father… (Psalm23, how would you address your priest?)


This rather infamous verse used by George Bush(Jr),
Matthew 12:30 Jesus said: Whoever is not with Me is against Me.

This verse has turned a lot of righteous and peace loving people off,
Luke 19:27 Jesus said: And, My enemies, who would not have Me reign over them, bring them before Me and slay them. 　

 

[Toronto]

Mark 11:24 Jesus said: I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours

Could worship of Jesus be a concept of slave-mentality(mundane desires)?

 

[Toronto]

The fact written in history:
The Catholic and other older Bibles - mostly use the words "slave" & "slaves" whereas the newer versions like KJV that you read on the Internet use the words "servant" & "servants".

Psalm23,
I would challenge you and any other believer to prove this statement is a LIE. Otherwise, this statement shall hold water.


Blind believers are unconscious believers of revisionism.

 

[Toronto]

Psalm23,
You have missed out to account for slavery in ancient NT time.

 

[Toronto]

Yes, they needd to work for the masters but in much more humane conditions then what we all have misunderstood about slavery. As we can read, some masters even bought wives from their slaves (who undoutedly got to work for the master but not the way we understood by 'slaves' are made to do).
Psalm23

Exodus 21: 20-21 If a master smites his slave, or his maid, with a rod, and his slave or his maid dies under his hand; the master shall be punished. But, if the slave continues to live for a day or two, and then dies, the master shall not be punished - for the slave is the master's money.

According to your 'good' value system or rather the biblical value system, Exodus21:20-21 depicted the very 'humanic' conditions for the master not the enslaved.


Exodus 12:44
but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him.

 

[Toronto]

So, according to god's laws the master would need to ensure the beaten slave can survive for at least 2 days before he dies. Then he will be scott-free.

And according to god's laws of slavery, the slave is the master's money. In another word, the slave is the master's bought property with $ and is treated like money.

Psalm23, and you have the cheek to argue that the conditions are much more humane?
You have sought your soul for your insane crave for eternality. Very 'humane' conditions ? That must be your Biblical derived value system !

 

[Toronto]

Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house, wife, nor his man-slave / maid-slave

This condones the slave mentality. And psalm23 would consider this a 'humane' condition. Yes and true, but from the position of the slave master.

 

[Toronto]

The historical fact:
The Catholic and other older Bibles - mostly use the words "slave" & "slaves" whereas the newer versions like KJV that you read on the Internet use the words "servant" & "servants".

Psalm23,
I would challenge you and any other believer to prove this statement is a LIE. Otherwise, this statement shall still hold water.


Blind believers are unconscious believers of revisionism.

 

[Toronto]

Exodus 22:2-3 If a thief has nothing, then the thief shall be sold (as a slave) for his theft.

This condones the slave mentality.

 

[Toronto]

We are conditioned by the mass media and the infamous historical event relating 'Black Slavery' have conditioned us to believe all slavery are bad. In ancient biblical time, it was quite a different thing.

Psalm23

For benefit of the doubt, are you able to substantiate your claim: "We are conditioned by the mass media and the infamous historical event relating 'Black Slavery' have conditioned us to believe all slavery are bad."?


Just like you some of fellow co-believer in this forum, making another wild claim without backup. The ultimate goal is to protect your 'reward'.

 

[Toronto]

Dear Toronto,

Though they mighy just be movies but it could depart from the truth that such situations were very common in ancient China (and I believe in many other countries).

God's laws are always right. Period!

Any historic facts to backup you claim on 'such situation' in china and perhaps one or 2 countries?

So far, I am able to backup with detailed biblical quotes(OT) and up the late 18th century.

Coming to NT soon!

 

[Psalm23]

Any historic facts to backup you claim on 'such situation' in china and perhaps one or 2 countries?

So far, I am able to backup with detailed biblical quotes(OT) and up the late 18th century.

Coming to NT soon!

Historical truith of abuses of slaves? You must be very ignorant of this topics. The infamous Black Slavery in the 18th century is well-known, and fortunately for some men of God like John Newton (who penned the hymn the Amazing Grace) the Black Slavery was abolished. Abuses of slaves were (and sadly today) widespread. Many of the slaves didn't (neither they do now) just working on domestic chores. Countless of them were sold to work in diamond, gold and other mines under the most despicable conditions. We know in China people are sold and work in brick factories that are guided by trained dogs tjat are ready to attack these slaves who tried to run away. There are reports that when these slaves were finally rescued by the police, many of them were needed to be kept in the mental hospitals. They had been abused to the point of becoming mad! Are these enough for you?

 

[fishbuff]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm

Quotations by learned men from the 19th century:
bullet "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2
bullet "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
bullet "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
bullet "The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
bullet "The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3
Quotation from the 21st century:
bullet "If we apply sola scriptura to slavery, I'm afraid the abolitionists are on relatively weak ground. Nowhere is slavery in the Bible lambasted as an oppressive and evil institution: Vaughn Roste, United Church of Canada staff.

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Overview:

The quotation by Jefferson Davis, listed above, reflected the beliefs of many Americans in the 19th century. Slavery was seen as having been "sanctioned in the Bible." They argued that:
bullet Biblical passages recognized, controlled, and regulated the practice.
bullet The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property. 4
bullet Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
bullet Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.

Eventually, the abolitionists gained sufficient power to eradicate slavery in most areas of the world by the end of the 19th century. Slavery was eventually recognized as an extreme evil. But this paradigm shift in understanding came at a cost. Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained.