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The shocking truth about HAMAS!

The_Latest_H

Alfrescian
Loyal
Is that crap piece of article all you can show when i probe you?

I thought you know a lot?

Oh well, that article isn't crap really. It says a lot of truth that you refuse to accept. The fact is that I know Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian elections; I know they had a 6 month ceasefire; I also know they broke it on the 19th of december.

But I also know that this didn't happen because of rocket attacks. The causes of this conflict goes a lot more deeper than just the breaking of a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. After all, they have had ceasefires for the last few years, and it has never really gone far enough. Thus it points to an even deeper issue than just a matter of making and breaking ceasefires.

I'm sad you don't even want to probe the real issues behind what has transpired now. Instead you wanna know why the ceasefire end. Well anyone who has read the news can tell you straight. But I'm going into a deeper issue that you don't want to hear about. So much for a proper argument, dear fellow.
 

theblackhole

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
From The Times

January 5, 2009

It breaks my heart to see Israel's stupidity.

It has a right to respond to attacks, but will not achieve its ultimate aim - peace - until it stops thinking in military terms.

Michael Lerner

Israel's attempt to wipe out Hamas is understandable, but stupid. No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day. If Mexico had a group of anti-imperialists bombing Texas, imagine how long it would take for America to mobilise a counterattack. Israel has every right to respond.

But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas's indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel's killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).

Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.

Hamas has made it clear that it would accept the terms of the Saudi Arabian peace agreement, though it would never formally recognise Israel. It would live peacefully in a two-state arrangement, but it would never acknowledge Israel's “right to exist”. This position is unnecessarily provocative, and is deeply self-destructive for Palestinians who believe it is the only symbolic weapon they have left.

How do we get out of this destructive spiral? The first step is for the world to demand an immediate ceasefire. That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:

— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.

— Israel stops all bombing, targeted assassinations or any other violent actions aimed at activists, militants, or suspected terrorists in the West Bank or Gaza, and uses the full force of its army to prevent any further attacks on Palestinians.

— Israel opens the border with Gaza and allows free access to and from Israel, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons. Israel allows free travel of food, gas, electricity, water and consumer goods and materials including from land, air, and sea, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons or materials typically used for weapons.

— Israel releases all Palestinians in detention and returns them to the West Bank or Gaza according to the choice of the detainees or prisoners. Hamas releases Gilad Schalit and anyone else being held by Palestinian forces.

— Both sides invite an international force to implement these agreements

— Both sides agree to end teaching and/or advocacy of violence against the other side in and outside mosques, educational institutions, and the media.

— This ceasefire would last for 20 years. Nato, the UN, and the US all agree to enforce this agreement and impose severe sanctions in the event of any violations.

These steps would make a huge difference, isolate the most radical members of each side from the mainstream, and make it possible to then begin negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on a broader and deeper set of issues.

The basic condition for creating peace is to help each side feel “safe”. A first and critical step is to speak in a language that is empathic toward the suffering of each people in a climate of discourse in which both sides' stories are heard and understood.

Yet Israel, as the militarily superior power, ought to take the first steps: implementing a massive Marshall Plan in Gaza and in the West Bank to end poverty and unemployment, rebuild infrastructure and encourage investment; dismantle the settlements or make settlers become citizens of a Palestinian state; accept 30,000 Palestinian refugees annually back into Israel for the next 30 years, apologise for its role in the 1948 expulsions and offer to co-ordinate a worldwide compensation effort for all that Palestinians lost during the Occupation; and recognise a Palestinian state within borders already defined by the Geneva Accord of 2003.

This is the only way Israel will ever achieve security. It is the only way to permanently defeat Hamas and all extremists who wish to see endless war against Israel.

The most significant contribution the new Obama administration could make to Middle East peace would be to embrace a strategy that homeland security is best achieved not by military or economic domination but by generosity and caring for others. If this new way of thinking could become a serious part of US policy, it would have an immense impact on undermining the fearful consciousness of Israelis who still see the world more through the frame of the Holocaust and previous persecutions than through the frame of their actual present power in the world.

It breaks my heart to see the terrible suffering in Gaza and in Israel. As a religious Jew I find it all the worse, because it confirms to me how easy it is to pervert the loving message of Judaism into a message of hatred and domination. I remain in mourning for the Jewish people, for Israel and for the world.

Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun magazine. (rabbilerner@...)

 

theblackhole

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
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Israeli ground forces are in for a big surprise when they confront heavily armed and properly equipped HAMAS fighters. It's not going to be easy.Heavy casualties are expected.Hold your breath as this invasion escalates as more deaths and more destructions are reported.

Pray for the dead.Pray for the invaders.Pray for the occupiers and the occupied. This world is spiralling into insanity and into a mindless killing field.Give thanks you are safe here.Be grateful.Treasure your peace and harmony in Singapore. Pray for all those killed in this Gaza invasion.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
Oh well, that article isn't crap really. It says a lot of truth that you refuse to accept. The fact is that I know Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian elections; I know they had a 6 month ceasefire; I also know they broke it on the 19th of december.

But I also know that this didn't happen because of rocket attacks. The causes of this conflict goes a lot more deeper than just the breaking of a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. After all, they have had ceasefires for the last few years, and it has never really gone far enough. Thus it points to an even deeper issue than just a matter of making and breaking ceasefires.

What? you called this in-depth knowledge? Anyone who have tune to the news constantly knows knows all these.

What I am interested is hearing your argument on why Israel should negotiate with Hamas when they refuse to renounce violence. not taking short- cut to find a easy way out.
 

whoami

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
What is so strange about jumpingt camp to survive? You are a good living example of Chameleon. How you can change color to suit where you are living. In US you carry the ang moh and jews balls and in Singapore you do to LKY and tomorrow you go to Dubai you will change as well. Your LKY and President did the same when the Japanese came. So what is new?

Wonder which race is he from? Insulted the Chinese, Indians and Malays. And his avatar sure look like a moronic Chinese ya. :biggrin:
 

whoami

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
now given them some land and they fight among themselves. :mad:

Huh? Base on some verses from the bible? :confused:

Jump camp to survive? It's not like Israel, USA and the rest of the civilised world will cut your throat just because you believe in a different religion.

So you think Christianity is a religion of peace?

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other god, which thou hast not known thou, nor thy fathers; 8 Though shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him; 9 But thou shalt surely KILL HIM; thine hand shall be first upon him to PUT HIM TO DEATH, AND AFTERWARD THE HAND OF ALL THE PEOPLE. 10 And thou shalt STONE HIM WITH STONES, THAT HE DIE; BECAUSE HE HATH SOUGHT T THRUST THEE AWAY FROM THE LORD THY LORD. (Deut13:6-10)
 
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The_Latest_H

Alfrescian
Loyal
What? you called this in-depth knowledge? Anyone who have tune to the news constantly knows knows all these.

What I am interested is hearing your argument on why Israel should negotiate with Hamas when they refuse to renounce violence. not taking short- cut to find a easy way out.

ANC's MK didn't renounce violence when Nelson Mandela, the very first commander of MK before he was captured, decided to hold secret talks with the Nationalist party in the late 80s.

Only after many years of talks, both in secret and in public, did Mandela and Joe Slovo persuaded the MK top leadership to suspend the armed struggle.

The same is said for Sinn Fein and IRA, which the latter were still active from 1993 to 1997 until the Good Friday Agreement was signed under the eyes of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
ANC's MK didn't renounce violence when Nelson Mandela, the very first commander of MK before he was captured, decided to hold secret talks with the Nationalist party in the late 80s.

Only after many years of talks, both in secret and in public, did Mandela and Joe Slovo persuaded the MK top leadership to suspend the armed struggle.

The same is said for Sinn Fein and IRA, which the latter were still active from 1993 to 1997 until the Good Friday Agreement was signed under the eyes of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton.

ANC startd out as a civil movement and they tried in every peaceful way to argue their case, only turning to violence as a last resort, because the other side refused to negotiate. This is not with the case of Hamas is a terrorist organisation from start.

Even when ANC turned violence, its nature was incomparable with the barbarically indiscriminate practice not only of the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad but even of the PLO. The ANC always tried not to harm civilians, you don't get ANC sending people to hijack airliners, suicide squad to pizza outlets etc.. most of their attacks were against installations such as electricity pylons. Comparing the Palestinian struggle to that of the ANC is an absolute insult to the latter's historical record.
 

The_Latest_H

Alfrescian
Loyal
ANC startd out as a civil movement and they tried in every peaceful way to argue their case, only turning to violence as a last resort, because the other side refused to negotiate. This is not with the case of Hamas is a terrorist organisation from start.

Even when ANC turned violence, its nature was incomparable with the barbarically indiscriminate practice not only of the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad but even of the PLO. The ANC always tried not to harm civilians, you don't get ANC sending people to hijack airliners, suicide squad to pizza outlets etc.. most of their attacks were against installations such as electricity pylons. Comparing the Palestinian struggle to that of the ANC is an absolute insult to the latter's historical record.

The fact remains that if you think a pure military solution is enough to address what is a political problem is a mistaken view. I use the ANC with MK- and Sinn Fein with IRA as analogies to show that only when people sit down with other people who are not ideologically the same to talk about political solutions and to stick to it despite setbacks, often succeed.

You think that the Gaza war would be a cakewalk. You think that as long as Israel occupies Gaza, the problem would be resolved. You think that as long as Israel remains technologically superior, even in an urban warfare setting, they will be guaranteed a win. You think that Israel is the victim when Israel has killed 500 people and only lost 5 to Hamas' rocket attacks.

The fact remains that you resemble an armchair critic, thinking that the Palestinians will think the way you think. The facts on the ground have proven otherwise.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
The fact remains that if you think a pure military solution is enough to address what is a political problem is a mistaken view. I use the ANC with MK- and Sinn Fein with IRA as analogies to show that only when people sit down with other people who are not ideologically the same to talk about political solutions and to stick to it despite setbacks, often succeed.

You think that the Gaza war would be a cakewalk. You think that as long as Israel occupies Gaza, the problem would be resolved. You think that as long as Israel remains technologically superior, even in an urban warfare setting, they will be guaranteed a win. You think that Israel is the victim when Israel has killed 500 people and only lost 5 to Hamas' rocket attacks.

The fact remains that you resemble an armchair critic, thinking that the Palestinians will think the way you think. The facts on the ground have proven otherwise.

Your type of anology is simplistic and even childish.

Israel is never there kill people as revenge but to remove the offensive capabilities of a terrorist group. The number of people kill is just a by-product of her objective.
 

theblackhole

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
by-product ...collateral damage....oh dear.....please feel free to continue to champion the israeli invasion and its war of attrition and extermination...one day, GOD will turn the table round...and you say the same thing about the massive killings and massacres - by-product and collateral damage...oh dear....what a sickening world ...and what massive propaganda machinery they have to poison the minds of so many people - intellectuals included.sad.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
by-product ...collateral damage....oh dear.....please feel free to continue to champion the israeli invasion and its war of attrition and extermination...one day, GOD will turn the table round...and you say the same thing about the massive killings and massacres - by-product and collateral damage...oh dear....what a sickening world ...and what massive propaganda machinery they have to poison the minds of so many people - intellectuals included.sad.

Why get so upset? That place should have been flatten long ago and new order rebuilt.
 

theblackhole

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
the table will be turned soon....and they're getting desperate and putting the whole plan into action to totally flatten the whole place...but alas! GOD forbids....the invaders, the killers and the occupiers will have a taste of their own medicine before the whole place becomes a wasteland once more....that's non-judgemental justice in action...nothing will stop it...not even the axis-of-evil with their diabolical evil plans for world domination...GOD will forbid it!........be prepared for a total blood-bath in the region...anytime now.
 

The_Latest_H

Alfrescian
Loyal
Your type of anology is simplistic and even childish.

Israel is never there kill people as revenge but to remove the offensive capabilities of a terrorist group. The number of people kill is just a by-product of her objective.

That's what we think it is. But its not what the Palestinians see and what the Arab and Malay muslims see.

As I said, don't assume that the other side sees the same way as you see, and think the same way as you think. Again, you are repeating the same mistake again and again, and you are somehow trying to deny it.

I'd like to believe that the idea of "putting oneself in another guy's shoes" does help one see how the other side views about the same incident. Because if we just conclude from our angle, we will miss these blind spots and then make the same mistakes as past generations did.

And when past generations made these mistakes, and then the younger generations then do the same, then we are just sending a message to the later generations that there's no way we can sort this problem out, and not repeat this vicious cycle. But if and when we don't repeat the same mistake that past generations did, and create a situation where bold solutions will be taken, then we don't have to pass an even bigger problem to the later generations.

Rest assured however, if Israel thinks an military invasion of Gaza can suppress & destroy Hamas, then this same vicious cycle will continue long after we and our parents are gone from this world.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
That's what we think it is. But its not what the Palestinians see and what the Arab and Malay muslims see.

As I said, don't assume that the other side sees the same way as you see, and think the same way as you think. Again, you are repeating the same mistake again and again, and you are somehow trying to deny it.

I'd like to believe that the idea of "putting oneself in another guy's shoes" does help one see how the other side views about the same incident. Because if we just conclude from our angle, we will miss these blind spots and then make the same mistakes as past generations did.

And when past generations made these mistakes, and then the younger generations then do the same, then we are just sending a message to the later generations that there's no way we can sort this problem out, and not repeat this vicious cycle. But we don't repeat the same mistake that past generations did, and create a situation where bold solutions will be taken, then we don't have to pass an even bigger problem to the later generations.

Rest assured however, if Israel thinks an military invasion of Gaza can suppress & destroy Hamas, then this same vicious cycle will continue long after we and our parents are gone from this world.

It precisely for the fact that i am a third party and that why i am able to get a clearer picture and i won't be embarrassed to tell you loud and clear that Israel is always right.

If killing is all that Israel want, there would be no need to risk the lives of her soldiers to launch a ground offensive. just an air campaign will do.

Just because the Muslim are thirsty for jewish blood doesn't infer that Jews are going after muslim blood.

Things just don't work the way you think.
 

The_Latest_H

Alfrescian
Loyal
It precisely for the fact that i am a third party and that why i am able to get a clearer picture and i won't be embarrassed to tell you loud and clear that Israel is always right.

If killing is all that Israel want, there would be no need to risk the lives of her soldiers to launch a ground offensive. just an air campaign will do.

Just because the Muslim are thirsty for jewish blood doesn't infer that Jews are going after muslim blood.

Things just don't work the way you think.

I guess you view the problem as something static and something that has never changed, and never can be changed. I believe however that as time pass, and as people progress, progress and belief in things will change is part of the good in our human nature.

This means that I believe that things can improve if we realise that the problems we created cannot be just blamed on one side. And if we do things together to sort out a problem that we created together, we can do better.

History has proven it to be so. But since you remain skeptical and immune to reasonable reasoning, then there's not much I can do for you. I will pray for you though, and hopefully you will change your mind in time.
 
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