The Mandarin-speaking strategy

[skponggol]

One question I have to ask, and I apologize in advance if it comes across as silly: does anyone think this strategy will marginalize the minority races and indeed, the English-speaking, English-educated Chinese? Or, is the so-called Chinese middle-class vote bank so large that one can afford to ignore the former?

That's is the beauty of the GRC system.

Although the Chinese-speaking MP in the Aljunied team may marginalise the minority race, this can be neutralised by the 2 other minority MP (which made up 40% of the team)....

If Faisal and Pritam can speak up and be the champion for the minority race, they may not feel marginalise. Similarly, the Chinese will not feel threatened by the aggressive speech of the minortiy MP due to the presence of Low and Chen, while Silvia can speak up for the English-speaking Chinese voters.

Even if the minority race are too sensitive to feel offended by Low or Chen, they will still obliged to vote for the team becos of Faisal and Pritam (Faisal had in fact spoken against LKY in Malay during his maiden speech, the first and only time in Parliament when a Malay MP dared to speak up against PAP for the Malays....so the minority race know they have more to gain than lose for voting fot the team). Similarly, if the Chinese are too sensitive to feel offended by Faisal or Pritam, they will still obliged to vote for the team becos of Low and Chen.

 

[Ramseth]

Speak Beijing Mandarin was inevitable for the whole of China and Chinese disapora around the world since the invention of the traditional 4-cornerned numbers Kangxi dictionary, later modified into Zhuyin Fuhao and eventually into Hanyu Pinyin. The dictionary defines and owns the language. Singapore was right to emphasize on Mandarin Chinese since the 80s. However hard it is that some felt, it's still the right decision and direction. The dialects can always be preserved at home if you're able to hanlde multiple dialecs or even multiple languages. Don't be so selfish as to suggest and stomp that it's a bad policy just because you yourself can't handle it. That I must say, is papish sinkishness at it's worst. I didn't say learning science is bad policy just because I'm not so good in science.

 

[skponggol]

One question I have to ask, and I apologize in advance if it comes across as silly: does anyone think this strategy will marginalize the minority races and indeed, the English-speaking, English-educated Chinese? Or, is the so-called Chinese middle-class vote bank so large that one can afford to ignore the former?

Faisal, during his maiden speech in Malay, he spoke up for the Malays against LKY. Will he marginalise the MAJORITY Chinese race (both Chinese and English-educated) ??? Will he marginalise the other non-Malay minoriy race ?

That's is the beauty of the GRC system...The presence of Low and Chen would have shielded Faisal against any smear or attack.

If Faisal were to stand in a SMC, he were most probably be kicked out by the voters if he were to constantly speak up for the Malay issue, especially when neighbouring Malaysia is so polarised by communal politics which can be so closely felt here in Singapore.

Thus, Faisal in a GRC team, would be protected to speak up for the Malay issue which will further enhance the support among Malay voters to vote for the whole team.

 

[Annoyed]

Hi Ramseth,

I agree that the emphasis on Mandarin was inevitable, but I wish that its implementation was not so drastic. For instance, I really don't see the need to prohibit the use of Chinese dialects - they aren't dialects in the technical sense of the word, but I'll use it for the sake of convenience - on public TV and radio. Last I checked, you can't even play a Cantonese song on the Chinese radio stations which, to me, is silly.

I'm not sure I stand by former MM's statement that the learning of dialects interfere with Mandarin, because from my observations, it seems to be the other way around. My father grew up speaking 5 dialects - Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese, Hakka and smatterings of Hainanese. Being Chinese-educated, he speaks Mandarin very fluently and from his spoken English, you won't be able to tell that he was from Chinese schools, ie. he doesn't sound like LTK or LSS (no offense meant to LTK; I thoroughly respect him as a politician, but listening to his English speeches breaks my heart ). For myself, I've been trying to learn Cantonese for the fun of it - I'm Hokkien - and I'm pretty sure it's my knowledge of Mandarin that contributed to the speed at which I picked up the dialect, coupled with a fair bit of Cantopop practice at karaoke bars.

From a linguistic standpoint, there is no evidence to suggest that being in a multiple-language speaking environment impedes one's learning of a particular language. If you grew up in a bilingual environment - say Chinese and English - and assumming the same levels of education as somebody else from a monolingual one, your English vocabulary will be slightly less than the purely English-speaking person, and your Chinese, less than the purely Chinese-speaking. But the difference is negligible enough not to impede communication or any other functional use of the language. Therefore, I am not sure I buy the theory that the use of dialects should be discouraged, if not outright prohibited, failing which none of us would be able to speak fluent Mandarin.

Rather than being rooted in empirical evidence, the institution of a Mandarin-only regime was created to promote further homogeneity within the Chinese community. As Scroobal alluded to, it is part of the strategy to keep races separate, and the very arbitrary definitions of "race" in this case has alienated many people. I feel especially bad for the Peranakan-Chinese, who have to learn Mandarin as a "mother tongue" when it clearly isn't theirs.

To those who say that the bilingual policy has resulted in atrocious standards of English in Singapore, I've personally ranted at that too. But I think this is due to poor execution - teaching methods - rather than the policy per se. As a case in point, I can't fathom why teachers these days don't spend more time teaching grammar and syntax. You can't expect students to "pick up" these things from reading more storybooks or from everyday communication, because that's based on the assumption that students actually a) read and b) speak in proper English, which they might not. Immersing yourself in the correct environment isn't the be-all-and-end-all: I have American friends from good colleges who can't tell the difference among "their", "there" and "they're". My parents - both Chinese-educated - write and speak English that is more grammatically-correct than their so-called English-educated staff, whose writing standards makes a mockery of the term "literacy"".

Again, my apologies for an unnecessarily long treatise on language-learning. For whatever reason, this one gets up my goat more than anything else.

Cheers!

Speak Beijing Mandarin was inevitable for the whole of China and Chinese disapora around the world since the invention of the traditional 4-cornerned numbers Kangxi dictionary, later modified into Zhuyin Fuhao and eventually into Hanyu Pinyin. The dictionary defines and owns the language. Singapore was right to emphasize on Mandarin Chinese since the 80s. However hard it is that some felt, it's still the right decision and direction. The dialects can always be preserved at home if you're able to hanlde multiple dialecs or even multiple languages. Don't be so selfish as to suggest and stomp that it's a bad policy just because you yourself can't handle it. That I must say, is papish sinkishness at it's worst. I didn't say learning science is bad policy just because I'm not so good in science.

 

[zhihau]

As a case in point, I can't fathom why teachers these days don't spend more time teaching grammar and syntax.

makes me wonder too...

 

[Fook Seng]

Hi Ramseth,

I agree that the emphasis on Mandarin was inevitable, but I wish that its implementation was not so drastic. For instance, I really don't see the need to prohibit the use of Chinese dialects - they aren't dialects in the technical sense of the word, but I'll use it for the sake of convenience - on public TV and radio. Last I checked, you couldn't even play a Cantonese song on the Chinese radio stations which, to me, is silly.

I'm not sure I stand by former MM's statement that the learning of dialects interfere with Mandarin, because from my observations, it seems to be the other way round

I agree with you that the aggressive destruction of dialects is barking up the wrong tree. It is not that a dialect is a different language. It is in fact the same language as Mandarin with the same syntaxes but sounding different. Correction. In fact most of the time, dialects sound quite similar to Mandarin and even if it is different you can guess what it is really referring to. So I agree that knowing dialects at home actually helps in learning Mandarin. What which will not help is a home language that is not Chinese - like English or Malay in the case of some Peranakan Chinese. So all along, we have been barking up the wrong tree. Look at Malaysia to see how dialects have actually helped in learning Chinese. For those people with a home environment that is Chinese-averse, whether with Mandarin or with some other Chinese dialects, my suggestion is to watch TV or listen to radio broadcast in Chinese. This will change the home environment for learning Chinese, not only for the children but also for the adults.

 

[Annoyed]

Linguists will disagree with you that dialects sound quite similar to Mandarin, or that it is the same language! Some of us may have the advantage of making such a statement because we grew up with both, and can switch quite easily from one to another. But try putting a purely Cantonese-speaking person with a purely Mandarin-speaking person and they won't be able to communicate.

Dialects are supposed to be mutually intelligible, for instance, in the case of Malay and Indonesian. I won't consider Mandarin intelligible with any of the Southern Chinese languages in Singapore, like Teochew, Hokkien or Cantonese. That they are classified as dialects rather than individual languages is due to political reasons than because they fit into the appropriate linguistic categories.

That said, I cannot disagree that getting rid of "dialects" is barking up the wrong tree, due to the similar nature of their grammar and syntax to Mandarin. It's also beyond lame when you hear the titles of certain Cantonese dramas - a lot of which we import from HK - being read in Mandarin.

Ok, sorry for digressing again. Maybe we ought to get back to the original intent of the thread?

I agree with you that the aggressive destruction of dialects is barking up the wrong tree. It is not that a dialect is a different language. It is in fact the same language as Mandarin with the same syntaxes but sounding different. Correction. In fact most of the time, dialects sound quite similar to Mandarin and even if it is different you can guess what it is really referring to. So I agree that knowing dialects at home actually helps in learning Mandarin. What which will not help is a home language that is not Chinese - like English or Malay in the case of some Peranakan Chinese. So all along, we have been barking up the wrong tree. Look at Malaysia to see how dialects have actually helped in learning Chinese. For those people with a home environment that is Chinese-averse, whether with Mandarin or with some other Chinese dialects, my suggestion is to watch TV or listen to radio broadcast in Chinese. This will change the home environment for learning Chinese, not only for the children but also for the adults.

 

[Ramseth]

Annoyed & Fook Seng, while I agree that Mandarin Chinese as main Chinese language is inevitable and inadvertent, I also think that LKY and TT methods are flawed and misguided. Dialects can actually help to learn Mandarin Chinese better and more indepth with understanding instead of just reciting. TT until today can't speak proper Mandarin even to save his life in the presidential campaign. He was the education minister presiding over the implementation of bilingual streaming.

Before TT the one who set the foundation was GKS and of course LKY gave the final stamp of approval. All of them are babas mistakenly believing that you can't learn more than one Chinese language/dialect. Portuguese, Spanish, French and Italian are all dialects of Latin, but they gained language status because they have national base and written form. Every European knows that once you know one or two, learning the others is easy as a breeze. Kids during my childhood usually spoke two or three dialects plus Mandarin naturally without problem Intentionally excluding dialects didn't help the learning of Mandarin, it actually stifled and hampered the learning process. PRC Chinese and Taiwanese have no problem dealing with dialects plus Mandarin. Singapore used to not have that problem too. The complaints of learning Mandarin is difficult and taxing on children began after the discouraging and even banning of dialects.

 

[sukhoi-30]

Yes, i agreed with all of you. The govt should realised that a chinese who speaks dialects are good in Mandarin too. It is their discouragement of dialects that we have problems in the bilingual policy when students cannot cope with mandarin and chinese in general.
I hope the govt can lift its ban on dialects in our media.

Having said that, i think besides implementing a bilingual policy as a reason for the discouragement of dialects, there are more important political reasons for doing so. The chinese belonging to different dialects can be a force of disunity with loyalty and affiliation caters to their own dialect groups. In the past, the chinese are segregated by dialects as can be seen in some of their cemetary like Pek san teng for Cantonese etc..There was no national identity of belonging to a chinese identity so in nation building, it is not a positive development. In Taiwan, Hokkien and Hakka were banned by the KMT until it was lift in the 1990s. PR China too discouraged dialects and promote Mandarin as a unifying force.

 

[Ramseth (Inf)]

Annoyed & Fook Seng, while I agree that Mandarin Chinese as main Chinese language is inevitable and inadvertent, I also think that LKY and TT methods are flawed and misguided. Dialects can actually help to learn Mandarin Chinese better and more indepth with understanding instead of just reciting. TT until today can't speak proper Mandarin even to save his life in the presidential campaign. He was the education minister presiding over the implementation of bilingual streaming.

Before TT the one who set the foundation was GKS and of course LKY gave the final stamp of approval. All of them are babas mistakenly believing that you can't learn more than one Chinese language/dialect. Portuguese, Spanish, French and Italian are all dialects of Latin, but they gained language status because .

i agrees with myself.

 

[Annoyed]

That is the insidiousness of the GRC system. It entrenches the policy of deliberately keeping "races" separate, and the assumption that you have to be of a certain "race" to help speak up for "your people". I'm not even about to go into a treatise about the definition of "race" which has no basis in science, and how the divide and conquer strategy continues to be a remnant of colonial times. Since the powers-that-be have implemented this system, they'll have to make their bed and lie in it.

That's is the beauty of the GRC system...

As you rightly put it, it was a "political reason": to create a false sense of unity. I am not about to contest whether or not it was the "correct" or "necessary" thing to do, since that's pretty much a done deal. I just wanted to point out that the unity is an imposed one, and the language policy that led to its creation was not grounded in any empirical linguistic reality.

there are more important political reasons for doing so. The chinese belonging to different dialects can be a force of disunity with loyalty and affiliation caters to their own dialect groups. In the past, the chinese are segregated by dialects as can be seen in some of their cemetary like Pek san teng for Cantonese etc..There was no national identity of belonging to a chinese identity so in nation building, it is not a positive development. In Taiwan, Hokkien and Hakka were banned by the KMT until it was lift in the 1990s. PR China too discouraged dialects and promote Mandarin as a unifying force.

 

[Fook Seng]

Yes, i agreed with all of you. The govt should realised that a chinese who speaks dialects are good in Mandarin too. It is their discouragement of dialects that we have problems in the bilingual policy when students cannot cope with mandarin and chinese

So the destruction of dialects can be included in the list of faulty policies of the Govt. The others are Stop at 2 policy, HDB pricing (i.e. asset enhancement) policy, persistence use of ERP after the initial stage, maid levy scheme, GRC scheme. What else? The last can bring serious political instability when the majority vote share approaches 50 % or even dips below 50 %. I mean it will be bad even for the ruling party.

 

[sukhoi-30]

I don't think it is a fault per se. Singapore was experiencing with nation-building then and so a common language of communication is needed for the chinese community divided by different unintelligible dialects. Mandarin also provide a sort of standardised written character which also contribute to literacy level at least.

However, since we have succeeded, the govt can relax its ban on dialects in the media. It is somewhat funny to have korean or japanese on TV but dialects were banned. Dialects are part of the chinese/sporean culture and play a part in maintaining sporean identity. I have seen Taiwanese kids now learning hokkien and they have no problem mastering Mandarin and English as well.

 

[Liquigas]

The use of Chinese dialects at home, in schools or in the work place surely will hinder the development of Mandarin. This is the reason why people in North China can speak better Mandarin compared to people in Fujian, Guandong or even Shanghai. Noticed also that the standard of Mandarin in Taiwan now is not as good as when it was in the past (up to late 1970s). Then the KMT government strongly discouraged the use of local dialects among the native Taiwanese. Bear in mind that not many among us are good enough to master more than one languages. Also I am talking only about Mandarin, the spoken Chinese form and not Chinese as in the written form.

 

[Annoyed]

That's another misconception.

Mandarin did not provide a standardized written character. The Chinese writing system was adopted eons before Mandarin became the standardized national language. Even in ancient times, when folks sat for their imperial examinations, they were writing in Classical Chinese – which was structured very differently from the Standard Written Chinese of today – and speaking in the various regional dialects. The introduction of Standard Written Chinese, which is based on the spoken Mandarin form, is a fairly recent phenomenon that had its roots in the New Culture Movement. People started adopting Mandarin sentence structures because the chosen national language of China was Mandarin, not the other way round.

Mandarin also provide a sort of standardised written character which also contribute to literacy level at least.

My point exactly. It was a political decision to unite the Chinese as a community, rather than with other non-Chinese communities as a nation. The result of which is a bunch of ignorant fools who tell you that "Mandarin is my Mother Tongue" without an inkling of what the term "mother tongue" means.

Singapore was experiencing with nation-building then and so a common language of communication is needed for the chinese community divided by different unintelligible dialects.

Not quite sure what you mean by "better". Clearer pronunication? Less regional accent? IMHO, people in North China speak "better" standard Chinese compared to those in Fujian, Guangdong, or Shanghai because Mandarin IS derived from the Northern Chinese dialect. They're essentially speaking dialects (in the true linguistic sense of the word) of the same language, while those from the South are almost tasked to speak a different language altogether.

The use of Chinese dialects at home, in schools or in the work place surely will hinder the development of Mandarin. This is the reason why people in North China can speak better Mandarin compared to people in Fujian, Guandong or even Shanghai.

 

[psy83]

I guess the whole article can either have a positive or negative impact, It can have a negative impact with minority votes if they deemed that CSM is appealing only towards the Chinese voters taking note that 2016 will be a very close call and Minority votes can be the deciding factor and Minorities can be easily swayed if they decide that one party is not looking after their interest/protecting them(2006 Pap played the race card on W.P) . Also taking note that when this article was posted on Yahoo FTP, Almost all with Minority Nicknames was giving negative comments. Are they sensitive or was there a Misunderstanding or CSm didnt push this idea in a correct manner?

PAP can take advantage of this and start a propaganda against the W.p, Trying to sway minority votes from W.P. Its a very fine line and W.P has to play it very cautiously, we have to also remind our-self that Faisal and Pritam is not seen as Individuals that is representing the Malay/Indian community, They are only there because of the GRC and the rule attached to running for a GRC. Will someone come out and start playing the Race game?

I guess if locals were only starting to get interested in politics which only have started 1yr ago, by 2016 local politics will be more intense x100.. So lets wait and see who else decides to join in the Fray and what type of strategy they will play.

Mandarin speaking strategy i guess shouldnt be telecast-ed out-loud as one segment might feel left out. How do you use this Stretegy to win over Chinese speaking voters.. And why and whom are this people you are targeting and how do you appeal to this segment of this society? So basically do you start a W.p chinese wing? News-letter in chinese? Organizing tours for Chinese only? There will be a negative/positive impact but which is greater and how important is it to play this Language/Race Card? By 2016 a very large block will be new-voters and this new voters are from the English speaking generation. Many can sway their parents/grand-parents votes just like this G.E(Like how My sister and myself swayed my parent's votes away from PAP and many of my friends admitted doing the same)and also by 2016 the fear-factor will be almost gone. So is this the right strategy?


Lastly, This issue might be more sensitive with the Malay population as the Local Indian population(Cant speak for the New Indian Immigrants) always tend to be netruel when issues like this comes around and doesnt see the Chinese as competitors(Malays and Chinese has a History etc. who gets to eat more of the pie or sensitively over Chinese population is being used to diluted them or their voice) Its a very sensitive topic that Csm is playing with, Is this the right strategy.. Come 2016 how many of the local population will only be Chinese educated?

 

[Fook Seng]

Lastly, This issue might be more sensitive with the Malay population as the Local Indian population(Cant speak for the New Indian Immigrants) always tend to be netruel when issues like this comes around and doesnt see the Chinese as competitors(Malays and Chinese has a History etc. who gets to eat more of the pie or sensitively over Chinese population is being used to diluted them or their voice) Its a very sensitive topic that Csm is playing with, Is this the right strategy.. Come 2016 how many of the local population will only be Chinese educated?

I agree with you that speaking in Chinese in Parliament can alienate the minority population and politicians need every single vote. But CSM did not just speak in Chinese. He also delivered a speech in English. Both in my opinion, as far as the choice of language is concerned, were context-based. The English speech mentioned Adam Smith and generally had a less catchy theme. Let's hope his future contributions will be less for the effort and more for the ideas that they bring.

 

[HedgeTrader]

I agree with you that speaking in Chinese in Parliament can alienate the minority population and politicians need every single vote. But CSM did not just speak in Chinese. He also delivered a speech in English. Both in my opinion, as far as the choice of language is concerned, were context-based. The English speech mentioned Adam Smith and generally had a less catchy theme. Let's hope his future contributions will be less for the effort and more for the ideas that they bring.

In just a week CSM gone from Li Shimin to Adam Smith. PAP MPs see stars LOL :*:

 

[Annoyed]

Hi Psy83,

What was published on Yahoo FTP that got so many negative comments by the minority communities? Chen's allusion to the Tang Dynasty during his Mandarin parliamentary speech? If so, I can understand the sentiment.

The problem, I think, is that the culture card was played at a point of time when many Singaporeans - Chinese or not - are getting increasingly annoyed by the seemingly unstoppable influx of folks from the PRC. Even as a Chinese-Singaporean myself, it is worrying to go out on the streets and see road signs in only Mandarin and English, or enter a 711 to have to repeat your order for a packet of Marlboro Ice Blast in Mandarin because the countergirl only knows how to jiang hua yu ie. speak Mandarin. What happened to our multiracial, multicultural society?

Then, you see things like the opening of the Sun Yat-Sen museum, as though his many short trips to Singapore really had some monumental impact on our society. As if all this isn't enough, some politician comes by and uses figures from the Tang Dynasty to shed some insight on the political situation in Singapore. Granted, it was a Mandarin speech and supposedly addressed to the Chinese community. But then you have the S*** Times picking up on it, translating the contents into English, and giving it a full-page treatment. And, China's imperial history suddenly becomes intertwined with Singaporeans, whether or not we like it.

I can see why doing something like that can be alienating to the minority races, even if Chen Show Mao's intent was never to be so. Heck, I would have found it alienating if I didn't personally know what the Tang Dynasty was about.

I guess the whole article can either have a positive or negative impact, It can have a negative impact with minority votes if they deemed that CSM is appealing only towards the Chinese voters taking note that 2016 will be a very close call and Minority votes can be the deciding factor and Minorities can be easily swayed if they decide that one party is not looking after their interest/protecting them(2006 Pap played the race card on W.P) . Also taking note that when this article was posted on Yahoo FTP, Almost all with Minority Nicknames was giving negative comments. Are they sensitive or was there a Misunderstanding or CSm didnt push this idea in a correct manner?

PAP can take advantage of this and start a propaganda against the W.p, Trying to sway minority votes from W.P. Its a very fine line and W.P has to play it very cautiously, we have to also remind our-self that Faisal and Pritam is not seen as Individuals that is representing the Malay/Indian community, They are only there because of the GRC and the rule attached to running for a GRC. Will someone come out and start playing the Race game?

I guess if locals were only starting to get interested in politics which only have started 1yr ago, by 2016 local politics will be more intense x100.. So lets wait and see who else decides to join in the Fray and what type of strategy they will play.

Mandarin speaking strategy i guess shouldnt be telecast-ed out-loud as one segment might feel left out. How do you use this Stretegy to win over Chinese speaking voters.. And why and whom are this people you are targeting and how do you appeal to this segment of this society? So basically do you start a W.p chinese wing? News-letter in chinese? Organizing tours for Chinese only? There will be a negative/positive impact but which is greater and how important is it to play this Language/Race Card? By 2016 a very large block will be new-voters and this new voters are from the English speaking generation. Many can sway their parents/grand-parents votes just like this G.E(Like how My sister and myself swayed my parent's votes away from PAP and many of my friends admitted doing the same)and also by 2016 the fear-factor will be almost gone. So is this the right strategy?


Lastly, This issue might be more sensitive with the Malay population as the Local Indian population(Cant speak for the New Indian Immigrants) always tend to be netruel when issues like this comes around and doesnt see the Chinese as competitors(Malays and Chinese has a History etc. who gets to eat more of the pie or sensitively over Chinese population is being used to diluted them or their voice) Its a very sensitive topic that Csm is playing with, Is this the right strategy.. Come 2016 how many of the local population will only be Chinese educated?

 

[scroobal]

Good discussion guys/gals. Taking it all in. It has been a difficult subject and has created a lot of unpleasantness across many segments. Chen is obviously playing the race card but it may backfire as it gives the PAP the opportunity to re-build the crumbling Malay block. We have avoided going into racial representation but the PAP went down this route with HDB and GRC. They set the framework and others are using it. The PAP has only itself to blame.