The Chen Show Mao Affair?

[kazuo]

Re: Chen Show Mao

That's why i say, if Sinkies dun send the WP team into parliament, they DESERVE to be called daft and royally FUCKED for the rest of their lives

 

[kazuo]

Re: Chen Show Mao

This calibre of guy willing to be your MP for less than 10% of his usual pay, what are Aljunied voters hesitating for?

In footballing terms, it's like a Messi or Gerrard willing to play for the Singapore team

 

[Forvendet]

Re: Chen Show Mao

In footballing terms, it's like a Messi or Gerrard willing to play for the Singapore team

 

[Charlie99]

Re: Chen Show Mao

People like PAP candidate Gan Thiam Poh is only swimming in the kampong longkang when Chen is already in the Pacific.

Your comment appears to be a relevant comparison. I did not find the opportunity to read GTP's resume, but I should give him the benefit of the doubt, notwithstanding that I have some doubt solely based on his career advancement in a GLC.

Unfortunately, the PAP does not appear to give due respect to their competitors as evidenced by the MM indicating that they have one MP, one NCMP, one celebrity, ....

Celebrity or not, if CSM was one of their candidates, I believe the PAP will have a totally different spin. If I have been a non-resident for almost 30 years, and able to keep in touch (more in touch than my former classmates who worked and lived in Singapore) via the defunct Straits Times Interactive Chat, the old sammyboy, this forum, and other avenues, I believe that CSM could have done the same.

In addition, CSM has the intellect, the ability to analyze and make logical practical conclusions, the desire and passion to speak up for the average citizens. Accordingly, I would urge all those who are eligible to vote, to consider voting for CSM and his team mates. Now is the opportunity for Singaporeans to register their unhappiness and dissatifaction with the PAP's policies, including paying themselves more than $1 million a year, before the apparent 8 months bonus, which indicated that they have lost their moral compass to govern.

The electorate should not worry about who the PAP is going to replace GY, the other Minister, and the designated Speaker. I believe that Singapore has enough talent to replace those 3 or any 3 individuals. Singapore, the forthcoming PAP government, the civil service will survive, and the economy and the stock market will probably perform better, with half a dozen non-PAP MP's. The rest of the world may cheer for Singaporeans, and its maturing Parliament and citizens.

 

[maozedong]

Re: Chen Show Mao

This is probably blasphemy but Chen Show Mao is probably smarter than the old man LKY himself.

 

[cheowyonglee]

This Chen affair tells me that many Singaporeans are not aware of things in their own country.

Firstly there is no such thing as voluntary NS. And no one in his right mind will want to serve NS for a country that he is not a citizen of. We still have people pedaling this stuff.

There are however option offered to certain category of PRs and it is PRs only. There are number of categories many of which are classified. These are options and if they don't agree to do NS, there consequences such as PR (only eligible for social visits visas )will taken away, cannot work in this country etc. There are some category of PRs which have no choice but to do NS and they are those that are born here or have come at a young age etc.

In a nutshell, if you do not fall in any of these categories, you cannot turn up and volunteer for NS.

I truly disappointed with Chen for not clarifying his true position. He has also done it for the medical admission procedure. Chen did not qualify. He failed the vocational aptitude assessment and this has nothing to do with his high marks. These assessments are now done across the world and many top students do not qualify for medicine because they can't pass the aptitude test. For instance, every years, Oxford and Cambridge hold their medical aptitude assessment in Singapore for student of Asia Pacific. You can get straight As and if you fail this test you can kiss medicine as a vocation goodbye. BMAT is used by Oxbridge and Imperial college and UKCAT for other Universities. For OZ it is called UMAT. These include interviews well.

I wanted to be sure and therefore have checked in regard to his case. He only took up citizenship when he realised that a Taiwanese citizen does not qualify for a Rhodes scholarship. In 1980, he was not eligible for scholarships. Only in 1991 was the Admin service and top tier scholarships opened for PRs.





WP's Chen Show Mao wants to help build strong opposition

Apr 15, 2011 - ST Forum
Chen Sow Mao has done his share for Singapore

MR CHEN Show Mao does not need to explain his decision as his actions have spoken louder than words ('About Chen: Time will tell' by Mr Benjamin Chow; yesterday). His resume alone is an answer but more importantly, it raises some issues our country currently grapples with.

Mr Chen served national service although he was not obliged to. Unlike Mr Chow and me who were born, bred and remain rooted in Singapore, Mr Chen was not born and was not wholly nurtured by Singapore. And yet, he chose to serve. What more do we need to ask of him?

We remember that NS was harsher then, the allowances thinner and yet, the records show Mr Chen served with distinction at the highest level possible. We have serving members of political and high office, including a People's Action Party new candidate, who became Singapore citizens but did not serve NS.

Mr Chen was the top student of his batch but never got to study the course of his choice nor was he given a scholarship. If he was given his choice of study (medicine), he would have probably spent the next 10 years studying and training here.

He was also not given a Singapore scholarship even though he showed academic and leadership qualities (he was president of an elected student council).

We have only ourselves to blame for not rooting this talent in Singapore but rather forcing him to go out into the world to make a name for himself, which he did.

Again, as we struggle with issues such as bond-breakers and foreign talent with no affinity for Singapore, we do have more pressing questions to ask before we start trying to question someone coming back with no reward in sight.

The Singapore opposition politician's life is a hard one, with nothing to gain and everything to lose - with a record that shows only sacrifice for Singapore with very little else in return.

I dare say the facts show Mr Chen in this respect to be whiter than white. Instead of questioning Mr Chen's motives, we have other more urgent matters to resolve.

Tan Suan Tiu

if cheng shou mao is not that great, then you and him compare, you are just peanut man!!!! your qualification and work experience, i dont think can match his.
you eating sour grape isit???LOL... i pity you because you are just too low compare to mr cheng shou mao.

 

[cass888]

Didn't say dowan terkua but said got say dowan terkua also must exprain what.

serve NS also must explain?

cannot get into meds must explain?

work overseas must explain or not?

did CSM use any of those for his advantage? it is just the netizens perception.

so if CSM got constipation, must he explain?

those are facts provided by the party, there are perceptions by the netizens, if one were to explain all thing as question by the netizens, one just need to sit by computers and answer questions.

why scroobal never asks PAP to justify or answer the questions? double standard?

 

[hairylee]

Who cares? The MIWs are no angels themselves in many other respect.

 

[Zenra2OO3]

Dear Bro:

Much as I admire your posts, your take on medical admissions is way off mark. BMAT for undergrad medical admissions and UKCAT for postgrad medical admissions was started in the last 10 years in UK med schools It wasn't started during the Chen Show Mao era, when he did his A levels..

The Americans also had the equivalent in MCAT, and the Australians, the GAMSAT for graduate entry medicine and UMAT for undergraduate entry. Note that all these started over the last decade and not during the Chen Show Mao era.

NUS medicine, I can say for sure doesn't have this vocational admissions. Current NUS president Tan Chorh Chuan and a physician himself said that during his era, straight As was a shoo in into the medical faculty.

And strange as it seems, but NUS Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine still doesn't have the vocational test. You can get it from the website - http://www.med.nus.edu.sg/corporate/app-mbbsadmissionfaq.html#Q1

Admission to Medicine in 2011 will be based on two scores: the University Score and the Faculty Score.

University Score - computed by the Office of Admissions


For applicants presenting Singapore–Cambridge 'A' levels: The best four content subjects (ie. 3 H2 and 1 H1 content subjects, with at least 1 content subject to be from a contrasting discipline) either GP or KI grade taken in the same sitting, as well as H1 Project Work, will be considered.

The University Score for applicants presenting the IB diploma or the NUS High School Diploma will also be computed by the NUS Office of Admissions. 50% of total
admissions score

Faculty Score - computed by the School of Medicine

Two interviews, essay, and portfolio review 50% of total
admissions score

They just have two interviews and a portfolio review, which is just looking at one's CV. Strange but true. Singaporeans going to Australia or Britain to do med have to go thru this hoop of 'vocational exams'. Which is why I don't understand why some Singaporeans look down on local graduates from Australian med schools for the matter. Ironically, these overseas med schools have done their part in doing a screen for future doctors as compared with NUS. Note that these vocational screening is only done in recent years, not CSM's era.

Although it sounds harsh but true, interviews isn't going to tell you much about the aptitude or vocational aptitude of the student if you like. People can practice and train for the interview and ace them. But vocational test will tell you whether the student will cut it as a doctor or not. Simple as that. That is why some medical schools did away with interviews altogether.

The reason for vocational screening is perhaps the fact that many students are doing well in exams. They call it the Flynn effect. The number of As for A levels if you noticed have been going up. The differentiating factor is going to be the vocational test results, implemented in recent years.

I have a different explanation for why CSM was rejected from NUS med. NUS did have a policy of 'diverting talents to other industries'. That means top students are not admitted to medicine. Chen is not the only student who was rejected. My JC known for producing top students in A levels had cases of rejection from NUS med, one went overseas to do his degree.

 

[scroobal]

I will make this is concise and clear so that there is no ambiguity.

1) He did not pass the vocational attachment test. He went for it and failed. He was not excluded from the medical program because he had high or exceptional high score. (contrary to what appeared in the Net)

2) These tests though not identical is commonplace in most insititutions around the world. Agree that NUS does not have it and that decision was political and its is a seprate issue). This is to stop high academic achievers who mugged thru the system and might not have the aptitude to do medicine. Diverting talent is a seprarate issue. I can write a whole essay on it as it damaged many younf lifes. . In his case, he did not do medicine as he did not make it during the vocational attachment. He must have internalised it.

3) He was given a choice - do NS or lose the right to hold the Singapore PR and the right to seek employment here. Even the SPH journalist including Han Fook Kwang was not aware of it. Old man had to explain it to them in the book - Hard Truths. The Amercian Embassy every year since the 1970s holds an orientation program for Expats to explain this. Most expats don't take PR until their children go past 18 or if they do, they ask their children not to take PR.

4) Many Malaysians who are PR have completed NS and still hold the Malaysian citizenship. Not one of them told me that he vounteered for NS. Over the years many PRs from Norway, US, UK (blondes in BMT) have undertaken NS as PR to meet the conditions to retain PR.

5) You can't walk into MIndef and say that you want to do NS. There is no such thing as vounteering for NS. The Govt has always been coy about NS to avoid people beating the system.

Ask Chen Shaw Mao to make a statutory declaration that he did not fail the Vocational Attachment as he sure attended it as well it as there was no condition attached to his doing NS. This is an intelligent man. He did not make those claims in writing.

We Singaporeans must learn not do be ignorant or gullible. I have no doubt that he is brilliant, intelligent and an achiever but the best adjective that fits him well is that he is "ultra-practical". A term given by another forummer. Despite doing NS he did not take up Singapore Citizenship. He only took it up when applying for Rhodes Scholarship which is not open to Taiwanese citizens. He was a Singapore PR for 14 years.

Dear Bro:

Much as I admire your posts, your take on medical admissions is way off mark. BMAT for undergrad medical admissions and UKCAT for postgrad medical admissions was started in the last 10 years in UK med schools It wasn't started during the Chen Show Mao era, when he did his A levels..

I have a different explanation for why CSM was rejected from NUS med. NUS did have a policy of 'diverting talents to other industries'. That means top students are not admitted to medicine. Chen is not the only student who was rejected. My JC known for producing top students in A levels had cases of rejection from NUS med, one went overseas to do his degree.

 

[Forvendet]

What's your gripe with not volunteering for NS and being forced to do it by laws and circumstances. All NSmen do that. Those who want regular military or police careers can sign on, even PRs. Can't understand your gripe with CMS. You're picking herring bones to the extend of writing several thousands of words in essays to cast doubt on him.

 

[Zenra2OO3]

Dear Scroo:

That is quite a new development.

So vocational attachment programme is not like those vocational entry tests? It is a stage of clinical attachment? I would check from my grapevine if that is true, especially during CSM era, as a requirement for medical school admissions.

Your point on rejecting top students from med is plausible, but in the case of the top student from my JC, he was encouraged to go into engineering..because the flavour of the day was manufacturing and they wanted engineers....And the Head of a Sci Department from my JC confirmed that too. But you could be right about not wanting to admit muggers into the faculty.

There are ppl who ace their A levels like you mention and not do well for the aptitude tests. Stranger still, there are ppl who dont do well for A levels but ace the aptitude test.

I will make this is concise and clear so that there is no ambiguity.

1) He did not pass the vocational attachment test. He went for it and failed. He was not excluded from the medical program because he had high or exceptional high score. (contrary to what appeared in the Net)

2) These tests though not identical is commonplace in most insititutions around the world. Agree that NUS does not have it and that decision was political and its is a seprate issue). This is to stop high academic achievers who mugged thru the system and might not have the aptitude to do medicine. Diverting talent is a seprarate issue. I can write a whole essay on it as it damaged many younf lifes. . In his case, he did not do medicine as he did not make it during the vocational attachment. He must have internalised it.

3) He was given a choice - do NS or lose the right to hold the Singapore PR and the right to seek employment here. Even the SPH journalist including Han Fook Kwang was not aware of it. Old man had to explain it to them in the book - Hard Truths. The Amercian Embassy every year since the 1970s holds an orientation program for Expats to explain this. Most expats don't take PR until their children go past 18 or if they do, they ask their children not to take PR.

4) Many Malaysians who are PR have completed NS and still hold the Malaysian citizenship. Not one of them told me that he vounteered for NS. Over the years many PRs from Norway, US, UK (blondes in BMT) have undertaken NS as PR to meet the conditions to retain PR.

5) You can't walk into MIndef and say that you want to do NS. There is no such thing as vounteering for NS. The Govt has always been coy about NS to avoid people beating the system.

Ask Chen Shaw Mao to make a statutory declaration that he did not fail the Vocational Attachment as he sure attended it as well it as there was no condition attached to his doing NS. This is an intelligent man. He did not make those claims in writing.

We Singaporeans must learn not do be ignorant or gullible. I have no doubt that he is brilliant, intelligent and an achiever but the best adjective that fits him well is that he is "ultra-practical". A term given by another forummer. Despite doing NS he did not take up Singapore Citizenship. He only took it up when applying for Rhodes Scholarship which is not open to Taiwanese citizens. He was a Singapore PR for 14 years.

 

[Boliao]

Scroobal, I've always liked your postings because they give insights to information/ background that the general public would not know. With regards to CSM, I shall not argue with you and give you the benefit of doubt that you are totally and absolutely correct. But...

Who gives a FUCK? Do you know how much CSM makes? This $15K is really, really a peanut to him. Do you think for all you painted him to be that he coverts the MP position? You think that volunteering for NS is mad. Do you think that a person for CSM to put life on hold (and possibly career at risk) to be an opposition MP if for fun??

FUCK OFF and close this topic. He holds a Singaporean passport and came back to serve its people for a meager fee. That's all I need to know.

 

[scroobal]

Bro, issue is not the effectiveness of such tests or aptitude screening. I have come across people who I thought would do very well in medicine but did not make it and vice versa. The first attempt was particularly subjective.

My issue is the impression created is false. There are 2 claims that have been floated and both are patently false. He was no excluded because of his high grades. He also did not waltz into Mindef and vounteer to do NS. He was also sent a notification just like all PRs who came to Singapore as kids.

Dear Scroo:

That is quite a new development.

So vocational attachment programme is not like those vocational entry tests? It is a stage of clinical attachment? I would check from my grapevine if that is true, especially during CSM era, as a requirement for medical school admissions.

Your point on rejecting top students from med is plausible, but in the case of the top student from my JC, he was encouraged to go into engineering..because the flavour of the day was manufacturing and they wanted engineers....And the Head of a Sci Department from my JC confirmed that too. But you could be right about not wanting to admit muggers into the faculty.

There are ppl who ace their A levels like you mention and not do well for the aptitude tests. Stranger still, there are ppl who dont do well for A levels but ace the aptitude test.

 

[scroobal]

Bro, issue is not the effectiveness of such tests or aptitude screening. I have come across people who I thought would do very well in medicine but did not make it and vice versa. The first attempt was particularly subjective.

My issue is the impression created is false. There are 2 claims that have been floated and both are patently false. He was no excluded because of his high grades. He also did not waltz into Mindef and vounteer to do NS. He was also sent a notification just like all PRs who came to Singapore as kids.

Dear Scroo:

That is quite a new development.

So vocational attachment programme is not like those vocational entry tests? It is a stage of clinical attachment? I would check from my grapevine if that is true, especially during CSM era, as a requirement for medical school admissions.

Your point on rejecting top students from med is plausible, but in the case of the top student from my JC, he was encouraged to go into engineering..because the flavour of the day was manufacturing and they wanted engineers....And the Head of a Sci Department from my JC confirmed that too. But you could be right about not wanting to admit muggers into the faculty.

There are ppl who ace their A levels like you mention and not do well for the aptitude tests. Stranger still, there are ppl who dont do well for A levels but ace the aptitude test.

 

[Narong Wongwan]

FUCK OFF and close this topic. He holds a Singaporean passport and came back to serve its people for a meager fee. That's all I need to know.

Yes. Stop casting doubts like what another bro mentioned.
CSM has more integrity than all of them self serving MIWs put together that we have now.

 

[jw5]

My issue is the impression created is false. There are 2 claims that have been floated and both are patently false. He was no excluded because of his high grades. He also did not waltz into Mindef and vounteer to do NS. He was also sent a notification just like all PRs who came to Singapore as kids.

The jury is out on whether he will be a good politician or mp, or even whether he will bring any benefits to singaporeans.
But let's at least give him credit for possibly giving up (part of) his career, for having the courage to be an opposition politician and even for turning up on time on nomination day, filling up his forms properly and still being around after polling day, which some even fail to do.

To the ordinary person like me who relies on msm and internet, the only reports I have read are that he was not accepted into medicine. Nothing stated about aptitude test, certainly no impression given that he passed the test but was still rejected.

Someone already tried to explain the meaning of volunteer. He had to serve ns, otherwise he would have to give up his pr. He decided to serve and keep his pr. Most of us here, if we didn't serve, we would be incarcerated. What we face is conscription or compulsory ns. His is not. Yes, he did it for a reason and he probably took citizenship for the scholarship as well. But nobody does something for no reason, or for the reason of simply wanting to serve a nation.

It's not his fault that he wasn't born here, or spent all his working life abroad. He may be different, but that does not mean he's any less singaporean.

 

[scroobal]

I am just stating that both the claims are false. After the nomination and until the polls. I did not respond to any comments in the thread.

The PAP is not dumb. They would have done their due diligence and would have blackmailed people with skeletons in their closets as they did with Seow Khee Leng.

I raised this first when I saw it on the net so that those claims do not form part of the campaign. The person who first raised it stopped making it. Those claims have not surfaced since.

Who gives a FUCK? Do you know how much CSM makes? This $15K is really, really a peanut to him. Do you think for all you painted him to be that he coverts the MP position? You think that volunteering for NS is mad. Do you think that a person for CSM to put life on hold (and possibly career at risk) to be an opposition MP if for fun??

FUCK OFF and close this topic. He holds a Singaporean passport and came back to serve its people for a meager fee. That's all I need to know.

 

[Bishan Tiger2]

I will make this is concise and clear so that there is no ambiguity.

1) He did not pass the vocational attachment test. He went for it and failed. He was not excluded from the medical program because he had high or exceptional high score. (contrary to what appeared in the Net)

2) These tests though not identical is commonplace in most insititutions around the world. Agree that NUS does not have it and that decision was political and its is a seprate issue). This is to stop high academic achievers who mugged thru the system and might not have the aptitude to do medicine. Diverting talent is a seprarate issue. I can write a whole essay on it as it damaged many younf lifes. . In his case, he did not do medicine as he did not make it during the vocational attachment. He must have internalised it.

3) He was given a choice - do NS or lose the right to hold the Singapore PR and the right to seek employment here. Even the SPH journalist including Han Fook Kwang was not aware of it. Old man had to explain it to them in the book - Hard Truths. The Amercian Embassy every year since the 1970s holds an orientation program for Expats to explain this. Most expats don't take PR until their children go past 18 or if they do, they ask their children not to take PR.

4) Many Malaysians who are PR have completed NS and still hold the Malaysian citizenship. Not one of them told me that he vounteered for NS. Over the years many PRs from Norway, US, UK (blondes in BMT) have undertaken NS as PR to meet the conditions to retain PR.

5) You can't walk into MIndef and say that you want to do NS. There is no such thing as vounteering for NS. The Govt has always been coy about NS to avoid people beating the system.

Ask Chen Shaw Mao to make a statutory declaration that he did not fail the Vocational Attachment as he sure attended it as well it as there was no condition attached to his doing NS. This is an intelligent man. He did not make those claims in writing.

We Singaporeans must learn not do be ignorant or gullible. I have no doubt that he is brilliant, intelligent and an achiever but the best adjective that fits him well is that he is "ultra-practical". A term given by another forummer. Despite doing NS he did not take up Singapore Citizenship. He only took it up when applying for Rhodes Scholarship which is not open to Taiwanese citizens. He was a Singapore PR for 14 years.

scroobal,

Just like to say that you appear to be biased against CSM. I want to correct you on some of your points and if you still intend to be unpersuaded that your position is biased then you are most likely pro PAP and nothing will change your mind.

1. During the early eighties there was a worry by our PM LKY and Minister Goh Keng Swee that a lot of bright students were going into medicine and law and that there needed to be a quota to limit the amount of talent going into that sector and persuade top students into then unpopular engineering so that the MNC's had their manpower needs met.

Eg. of how it was done is female students in medicine were restricted to 10% and the reason given was they were poor investments as they tended to not work after marriage. Also there was a sham interview selection process for medicine in which a disproportionate amount of top students like CSM were "rejected" in favor of less talented applicants.

But everyone including the academic staff knew it was a sham. My brother happened to be one of those brighter students rejected. I personally knew a professor and asked him to help and he too disagreed to the quota and re-direction of talent into manufacturing but the enrollment decisions were out of his hand. My useless MP Lee York Suan (PAP Desmond Lee's dad) just said it was national interests and did not even bother to appeal for him.

If you are old enough ask your peers. Everyone in the medical profession in 80's from the academia knew this. So too were the law academia. CSM and my brother were brutal victims having their future sacrificed for the country's needs. My brother took up another scholarship and never had a chance to do medicine. So was CSM. Fast forward 20 odd years and now we have dead manufacturing sector with mass unemployed PMETS and worst we need to import sub-standard doctors from the third world likes of Filipinos and Indians. This is the truth except for those younger ones who do not know and do not remember, and think it is a brilliant idea to import FT docs not knowing who created the problem of shortage in the first place.


2. A selection process purposely skewed to officially force, persuade talent into the much needed manufacturing disciplines. It was a open policy and the selection process was just a sham to cover the unfairness just like our current GRC system. It was far from meritocratic by all those who knew anything of it.


3. That CSM did or did not volunteer to do NS does not matter as much as the fact that he SERVED WITH DISTINCTION. I emphasize that and we do appreciate his service. No one should take that away credit from him. His motivations are personal to him, and so too my own motivation was to me (not to serve 3 years in prison in Kranji like someone I know of).

Someone else may just want to make some money as an army officer and get a better chance of government scholarship. We all have our motivations to do NS. Fact was he was a PR, not under SAF Enlistment act, and he served well regardless - of his own motivations or circumstances. He is one of us in every way.


4. Depending on how you define "volunteered". For me and for most folks of my age we remember the volunteer infantry platoon of the SAF. Yes. There IS such a thing as a volunteer soldier and you can walk in to volunteer. They are given a rank such as MAJ (VOL) Tan Ah Kow to differentiate their special honorary status from ordinary NS men and regulars. These are old soldiers, some infantry, mostly medical officers and nursing staff who man our medical units like field hospitals. They are considered volunteers if they are not subject to SAF enlistment act either through sex (being female) being too old (non-age group) or through the regular army service (not being regulars).

In CSM case I consider it half volunteered as he was PR not under enlistment act. But he is not fully honoured as volunteer in the traditional sense described above.


5. As I have elaborated above you can indeed walk into Mindef and be a volunteer. I know this fact because I have conducted volunteer officer courses in my NS time. If you are female or male not under enlistment act and have a certificate such as in nursing, public health, medicine, dentistry, special rare field deemed valuable to SAF you can volunteer. Dr Janil can volunteer and attend reservist too but I doubt he would.

It seems strange on first sight but I tell you there are really good hearted volunteers in our army who truly do it for the love of our country. On of them is the late surgeon and famous local artist Dr Earl Lu. He volunteered his time and expertise to the nation and I had the honour of serving with him. Being a top surgeon his private pay was super high, but for the one month a year he came in for reservist he only took a token rank allowance instead of the full reimbursement as we all reservists are entitled. A very rare humble man who is respected and loved and fondly remembered by all who knew him.


scroobal, grow up and be a bit more balanced will you. We need you to do your part for the country.

 

[LeMans2011]

Ok... fair enough.... but raising it here and now does not create any benefit... basically you are creating the impression that CSM is a liar.