ST Forum: Town Council losses: Who's accountable?

[papa san]

Bro,


Stay HDB vs stay condo, the good part is cheaper utilities bill. I stay alone in HDB, my utilities never hit beyond $80. I stay condo, even though I am always not in singapore, I still pay $200+ a month. n the best part I reduce from 2 fridges to 1 fridge compared to the days I stay in HDB. :o

Bro,

Where one chooses to live in is indeed a personal choice.

However, the main point I want to make is that TCs , with the large number of HDB households under them, should be able to obtain their supplies/contracts at a much cheaper price (economies of scale etc..) vs the smaller number of household units in private condominiums. Inspite of this,if the private condominiums still can operate profitably with big reserves, just imagine how much money TCs made monthly from monthly conservancy charges and car park charges.

 

[theblackhole]

they're raking in billions!and look at those peasants sleeping at the void decks! and searching the bins!and selling tissue papers for a living! and even begging openly!!!

 

[Gillette]

How come when TC were making money from investments, no one write in to compliment? :p

Oh, I know. Making money is expected. While losing money is unforgivable.

You missed the point all together. Its not about whether the Town Councils make money or whether their investments are risky.

TC should not be allowed to make any investments. Period. Their only mandate and job is simply to maintain the HDB estate with the funds collected. If surpluses are available, it should be returned or subsequent fees should be reduced. TCs should not try to act like mini-Temasek or GIC. They were never appointed to be fund managers.

Now, you claimed you stayed in a condo. Would you have allowed your management committee to punt your condo's sinking fund in the stock market?

 

[kansas]

But when mistakes are made, the CEO has to answer for them, most often at the cost of his job. So who should take the rap for these mistakes?

Very good questions by Karen Woon, will this last question be answered?

 

[silverfox@]

You missed the point all together. Its not about whether the Town Councils make money or whether their investments are risky.

TC should not be allowed to make any investments. Period. Their only mandate and job is simply to maintain the HDB estate with the funds collected. If surpluses are available, it should be returned or subsequent fees should be reduced. TCs should not try to act like mini-Temasek or GIC. They were never appointed to be fund managers.

Now, you claimed you stayed in a condo. Would you have allowed your management committee to punt your condo's sinking fund in the stock market?

If you ask me, this was not something which started just yesterday or a year ago.
If I am not wrong (from what I read), from year 2002, the fund grew an extra 50+million with 24 million coming from those so-called funds.
Like what you said, maybe in the 1st place, they shouldn't have invested those money or any at all.
It would be an even worst preposition if they start increasing conservancy by $50 per household, just because the people do not allow them to invest any of the money in any of these funds. They would do that:o

Back to the last question, would I have allowed my management committee to punt sinking fund in the market, I would, because make or loss, every single cent has to be account for. I would go for transparency in accountability. Investments is like that, either you make or you lose.

Just that in this situation, it happens that it loses. No one knew Lehmann would collapse. Did anyone predicted? None. It's only when things happen, we start to say it should have done this, it should have done that. What's the point?

 

[makapaaa]

Your $ is MY $. My $ is MY $. When I lost MY $, why should I be accountable to u? Mind u, u returned my Familee to power with eyes wide open. *hee*hee*​

 

[makapaaa]

U've not answered any of the writer's questions, u know?

 

[makapaaa]

they're raking in billions!and look at those peasants sleeping at the void decks! and searching the bins!and selling tissue papers for a living! and even begging openly!!!

There u go:

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/vnc2005/Swiss_Standard_of_Living/

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/vnc2005/Redesigned_jobs_for_Sporeans/

 

[masgnoeL]

If you ask me, this was not something which started just yesterday or a year ago.
If I am not wrong (from what I read), from year 2002, the fund grew an extra 50+million with 24 million coming from those so-called funds.
Like what you said, maybe in the 1st place, they shouldn't have invested those money or any at all.
It would be an even worst preposition if they start increasing conservancy by $50 per household, just because the people do not allow them to invest any of the money in any of these funds. They would do that:o

Back to the last question, would I have allowed my management committee to punt sinking fund in the market, I would, because make or loss, every single cent has to be account for. I would go for transparency in accountability. Investments is like that, either you make or you lose.

Just that in this situation, it happens that it loses. No one knew Lehmann would collapse. Did anyone predicted? None. It's only when things happen, we start to say it should have done this, it should have done that. What's the point?

"No one knew Lehmann would collapse."
Dun know, then why TCs act like an investment smart alex? Why I never get myself caught in toxic investments? Because I don't invest in anything I not sure will collapse or not. Ok, maybe let me say it another way for you to understand. The Structured Products are NOT CAPITAL GURANTEED. Hence, that fact itself should mean that the investment is RISKY. So, when the Lehman minibonds price fall over the year, did anyone in the affected TCs monitor and act expertly on the investment like cutting loss? No right? They just waiting for it to tank. And it did just that. When I invest, I draw a hard-coded cut-loss percentage. When it ditch, it automatically triggers me to cut loss and sell out. Clear?

 

[SIFU]

bro silverfox,

i always think u make a lot of sense especially in your gambling thread..

until now..

just answer this if u dun mind : even if TC made millions, how is it going to benefit the residents??

PS : hope u dun go along that line by idiot MP who said investment is to curb inflation.

 

[silverspoon]

i see retirees, ah peks, ah mas, the jobless, the unemployed obedienlty queuing up to pay their S&C charges every month. very law-abiding singaporeans. good law-abiding citizens, always listen to the wise counsel of our leaders.singaporeans are such nice and grateful citizens. increase charges also pay.increas S&C charges also obediently pay. singaporeans are world's most tolerant and law-abiding citizens.

then the town councils' supluses swelled and swelled...did they harvested the surplus back for the benefits of our heartlanders - those ah peks and ah mas, those elderly, those retirees, those unemployed etc etc...did they harvest back to them? did they reduce the charges? did they give more benefits to the heartlanders?

what did they do with the surplus? they gambled away...and now they said heartlanders are ungrateful ....only 14% loss - acceptable loss world-wide....

are TCs' surplus and monies for "prudent" investments???

oh mine oh mine...i cry for you fellow singaporeans... i cry for you...my heart goes out to your pain, to your anguish, to your grief and to your helplessness...you bloody ingrates!!!

ya...they always pretend they subsides alot of thinks...with so much surplus until their hand itchy can go and anyhow invest....now lost the money..ke ke say not their problem

 

[The_Latest_H]

ya...they always pretend they subsides alot of thinks...with so much surplus until their hand itchy can go and anyhow invest....now lost the money..ke ke say not their problem

I think that the onus had to be the companies to inform them fully- or that, a law stating that if they want to sign up, they must have someone, of reasonable financial knowledge, from their family only who has advised them and will be a witness to any bond agreement and document signature.

Then in a court of law, this witness will be important when the Judge asked whether did the plaintiff understand what was he signing in the first place. If the witness said that he suspected the bank was misleading him...the bank would be in trouble for negligence. But if the witness said that the plaintiff had fully read the document by taking a few days off, and then agreeing despite the risks and had consulted the witness himself, the bank wouldn't be in trouble.

Its more of oversight than anything else really- and this suggestion calls on people who wanna invest to be more careful, and also on banks to be more honest and upfront.

 

[ForzaFerrari88]

Just that in this situation, it happens that it loses. No one knew Lehmann would collapse. Did anyone predicted? None. It's only when things happen, we start to say it should have done this, it should have done that. What's the point?

Professor Kenneth Rogoff did warn of a major bank collapse when he was in town for an engagement a week before Lehmann went bust. You can check the facts out with the Prof at Harvard. If my memory serves me right, he mentioned Lehmann.

 

[Leegimeremover]

Professor Kenneth Rogoff did warn of a major bank collapse when he was in town for an engagement a week before Lehmann went bust. You can check the facts out with the Prof at Harvard. If my memory serves me right, he mentioned Lehmann.

More than one was predicted, and a few great academics and experts predicted. Our singaporeclass goons cannot predict.

 

[theblackhole]

hi silver fox,

the writings were on the wall for so long - both the old and the new sammyboys had been warning everyone of an imminent collapse of the banking and financial system. ane yet our world class scholars and first world managers jumped in and encouraged others to jump in. and our world class regulatory body also jumped in, allowed such toxic investments to be sold in this island, allowed sickaporeans to use their cpf funds to invest in these toxic investments....and encouraged and almost coerced the ignorant, the elderly, the retirees,the pensioners...to withdraw from their fixed deposits and invest in these toxic bombs....and u tell fellow forummers here that nobody expected the lehman brothers to collapse?

sammyboys and others had been giving warnings of an imminent collapse of the whole economic model and many of them in fact had even predicted this catastrophic economic meltdown simply by looking at the trend...

you don't need a scholar to know that things are not going right. you don't need an expert to know that the whole economic system is heading for a massive meltdown.the obscene losses we suffered in recent years are mind-boggling and can we claim that we didn't know....

we're bloody fools and we're easy prey to economic hit men and predators...all because of our greed..more greed...more greed...and you can gamble with your own money nobody cares...but when you used the peoples' monies and sinking funds to invest in "prudent" but bloody toxic investments, you've crossed the line of decency. it's indefensible.

singaporeans are very kwai kwai people. in other countries, riots and mayhem would have been erupted and the culprits lynched in public.

bless our souls singaporeans are the best citizens in the world. but pay back time is just around the corner. we cannot escape the tragedies and the follies we have dug ourselves in.

thank you for your enlightening post. have a good day.

 

[darememore]

When a CEO make such a mistake, they will resigned for their failure, should someone resign since they are peg to CEO pay?

 

[Uncle2]

Come on guys, the government has made a honest mistake. Its time to move on and pay our taxes on time lah...:p

 

[darememore]

Do you know how many citizen is being put in Jail for failing to pay their town council fee?
Someone had to be jail for lossing so much of $$$$

 

[oli9]

Please don't put words into my mouth saying that I put words into your mouth saying that you wrote non-risk.

What I am trying to explain to you is low risk investments also have risks. So can you say that if TC put money into low risk investments, the money 100% wouldn't lose?
Even you cannot put your head down and guarantee that low risk investments will not lose money.

Only non-risk investments can guarantee no-loss. So that's why I ask you what is non-risk investments, because I don't know of any investments that is non-risk. If you know, please tell us. I asked you because your expectations are those that does not incur any loss.

As far as I am concerned, no investments are non-risk. Even if you graduate or come from so-called Warren's school of 101.

TC role is to manage the town on the behalf of the residents. In the process maintain proper accounting of the town's funds.

Correct. BUT, low risk investment (eg SPORE BONDS) wont have such a magnitude of risks as compared to Lehmann Notes.
The thing is, as you put it yourself, the TC's job is to manage & upkeep the HDB etstates NOT gamble with excess funds. To keep proper accounting is mandatory. If it isnt, why so secretive about their investment strategies? What kind of strategies that is so secretive that only financial experts are in the know-how? Does the TC bastards have any Warren graduates to manage the funds?
Again, back to the TC's mission statement - UPKEEP HDB ESTATE. I dont see anywhere written that theyre suppose to "invest" our funds.

 

[Leegimeremover]

Correct. BUT, low risk investment (eg SPORE BONDS) wont have such a magnitude of risks as compared to Lehmann Notes.
The thing is, as you put it yourself, the TC's job is to manage & upkeep the HDB etstates NOT gamble with excess funds. To keep proper accounting is mandatory. If it isnt, why so secretive about their investment strategies? What kind of strategies that is so secretive that only financial experts are in the know-how? Does the TC bastards have any Warren graduates to manage the funds?
Again, back to the TC's mission statement - UPKEEP HDB ESTATE. I dont see anywhere written that theyre suppose to "invest" our funds.

You want my take? It was another stupid move to suck up to Lehman and the Ibanks to attract them to stay and expand. People don't care about this. Can cheat you for money is a winner.