SPP's DL & RP's KJ speak

[manokie]

Cheebye Desmond Lim

Please explain further on this

The lop-sided conditions do not form an equitable, healthy and fair basis for a relationship between the two political entities.

What damages will it do?

 

[Perspective]

Sadly this is where Chiam has failed. He has been in politics for so long and he did not build or lay a proper founndation. He should not have misled Desmond in this way. Those who worked with Chiam know that he is bascially omo and to him the party and him are one and the same thing.

Desmond being colourless is known from day one. He was there for a purpose. The press release is certainly not his work.

Looks like RP and NSP are gaining ground while WP prefers to rely on the brand and their performance or the lack of performance in Parliament.

For this I wouldn't put the blame solely on Chiam. DL is the only other figure in SPP reported outside election time. For the lack of such numbers in SPP there has to be a reason for it. It's the lack of numbers. That because most could figure, that's why they are in other parties. But the smaller the party you get more prominence.

You don't expect Chiam to tell DL when he joined, "Sorry you will be condemned because I want it that way"? People have to be discerning when choosing parties and its leaders. Alternatively they have to be confident in taking over them within 5 years. GMS is wise because there was a vacuum by Steve Chia which he filled.

 

[Perspective]

WP policy has been simple. Non-alliance except merger on terms agreeable to all parties concerned. Nothing new to LTK. It's been there since D. Marshall and JBJ. Barisan Socialis agreed to the terms and merged. It's got nothing to do with arrogance. It's got everything to do with recogniton that there's no such thing possible as unity with many tribal chiefs.

I think Scro was referring to WP's performance, not their position on merger. There is a reason why people hold that perception and I think it will have a lot of questions to answer if do not win above 1 seat and share of votes fall below expectation. That's because there was no infighting and their members worked hard, which means a serious strategy error. If otherwise, good for them, they're sinking into the middle-swing ground.

In any case I think NSP's presence is boosted in this forum by GMS but I can't say the same yet for outside this forum. For RP it certainly made progress - it's made news, KJ made news and all. The only problem is the image of arrogance online which many in Facebook complained about. My view is, it's still best for NSP and RP to come under SDA and there's no loss but only gain to everyone.

 

[Perspective]

NSP has left SDA for certain reasons. But NSP has tried to convince SPP that a merger into SDA would be the right path. Apparently, that didn't materialize.
Goh Meng Seng

Chiam has changed pretty much, I would say. To comply to the 11 conditions of RP would have been unthinkable 3 years ago, when he didn't even agree to NSP members dissolving and joining SPP as members - something that doesn't cost him anything.

 

[Ramseth]

I think PAP love it when talks of opposition unity come in vogue again. The more it's being talked about, the more disagreements, differences and cracks appear. For people wishing a quicker end to PAP monopoly on power, that's sad and they'd probably scold me or anyone else pointing this out, as being defeatist or doomsayer. They see so-called opposition unity as the quickest way. Crushing their hopes with a good dose of reality is cruelty that they don't take kindly to, but that's reality.

The best way to a single united opposition camp big enough to threaten PAP is not uniting all opposition parties. It's all except one got crushed by PAP so heavily that all lost their deposits, wasted their expenses and efforts and give up. All but one. The one remaining standing then leave no choice to newcomers to politics, either join them or PAP. Joining another or starting a new party become impossible or ridiculously suicidal. Only then, will Singapore have a glimmer of hope of a two-party alternating democracy.

 

[metalrover]

NSP has left SDA for certain reasons. But NSP has tried to convince SPP that a merger into SDA would be the right path. Apparently, that didn't materialize.

NSP has since moved on from there. It would take a greater reason for NSP to consider to re-join SDA again. I am not saying it is totally impossible but it would be very challenging indeed.

But let's see what happens to RP-SDA alliance.

Goh Meng Seng

To see RP & NSP join SDA may sounds good for opposition unity, and probably got quite a few of us excited. But since NSP left SDA, NSP has in fact grown and move forward in the right direction, it has progressed reasonably. While the SPP/SDA under the present Chiam family leadership, is going nowhere, stagnant and lethargic like many had said.

To rejoin the alliance, after considering the latest episode in the recent SPP conference, better not, there's already plenty of politics within the SPP itself. Divided into the Chiam's family camp and DL's camp. If RP go in, another KJ camp, that's chaotic. NSP may want to consider this twice or more.

 

[Perspective]

I think PAP love it when talks of opposition unity come in vogue again. The more it's being talked about, the more disagreements, differences and cracks appear.

I remember we had a conversation where I said "opposition unity" was a term derived by the PAP while you disagreed and said it was a anti-PAP concept. Now you finally know what I mean.

 

[Perspective]

To see RP & NSP join SDA may sounds good for opposition unity, and probably got quite a few of us excited. But since NSP left SDA, NSP has in fact grown and move forward in the right direction, it has progressed reasonably. While the SPP/SDA under the present Chiam family leadership, is going nowhere, stagnant and lethargic like many had said.

To rejoin the alliance, after considering the latest episode in the recent SPP conference, better not, there's already plenty of politics within the SPP itself. Divided into the Chiam's family camp and DL's camp. If RP go in, another KJ camp, that's chaotic. NSP may want to consider this twice or more.

I think NSP's growth had less to do with pulling out of SDA than thought. Sebastian Teo and GMS had taken over a more lacklustre leadership and made changes. The changes could be done with NSP within SDA with a more compromising Chiam (like now). However I agree that there's less time now and whatever the impact NSP made in 4 years may not be replicated given the election is less than a year away. That's the disadvantage.

The benefit of NSP rejoining SDA would be this. RP. That is why I understand why NSP waits for RP. Firstly, RP's entry into the scene added one more "competitor" to all opposition parties including NSP. It probably "relegated" NSP one step down from 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th (depending on where we start to rank it) given that it could renew and form a youth wing & women's wing in such a short time (NSP hasn't got both after many years). If RP comes purely under SDA, not only NSP but even WP would be "relegated". NSP's publicity opportunity would be so much overshadowed by all the colourful personalities and tough GRC fights in the larger SDA as well as WP that none of NSP's candidates could get to the front of the crowd. Banking on a SDA ticket ride might serve better.

 

[Ramseth]

I remember we had a conversation where I said "opposition unity" was a term derived by the PAP while you disagreed and said it was a anti-PAP concept. Now you finally know what I mean.

Yes, you're right.

I love to be in the wrong when I learn something right.

 

[Ramseth]

I remember we had a conversation where I said "opposition unity" was a term derived by the PAP while you disagreed and said it was a anti-PAP concept. Now you finally know what I mean.

Yes, you're right.

I love to be in the wrong when I learn something right.

 

[Perspective]

Yes, you're right.

I love to be in the wrong when I learn something right.

Haha. Same here.

My position has been this. If all the opposition could be one, they would not have been not one in the first place.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

You don't expect Chiam to tell DL when he joined, "Sorry you will be condemned because I want it that way"? People have to be discerning when choosing parties and its leaders. Alternatively they have to be confident in taking over them within 5 years. GMS is wise because there was a vacuum by Steve Chia which he filled.

I do not join NSP because there was a vacuum left by anyone. Sebastian and Law Sin Ling have been doing very well in NSP before I decided to join. In fact, I won't want to take over any leadership post like SG if Sin Ling continues to be the SG. He was doing a great job. In fact, due to my other commitments, I didn't want to take up the SG post when Sin Ling decided to step down.

In short, I didn't think too far ahead when I decided to join NSP. I joined basically because Sebastian is very sincere in his approach and he was the only one who has approached me since I left WP. I was about to give myself a long break after I left WP although I playfully taunted the idea of forming a new political party.

But since Sebastian thinks that I could continue to contribute towards the bigger opposition cause and I could help NSP in many little ways, thus I joined. My little principle is that whichever party I join, wherever I go, I just do my best to serve the bigger aim of political plurality.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

We have had one party rule for 50 years that Singaporeans have grown up with the notion that the opposition should also be one united party if they want to be serious challengers. It might be boosted by the fact that many democracies have 2 major parties taking turns forming government. What many don't realise is that there are hundreds of other parties that exist and some are in parliament.

This notion of united opposition is a fallacy as people have diffferent views and ideologies. The unity must come in for strategic and tactical reaons such as the successful BEEs strategy of 1991 and opposition candidates coming together to agree on avoiding contesting the same seats for vote splitting reaons. In 1981, Chiam withrew from the Anson By Elections Campaign to let JBJ to get the votes and this is the real opposition unity. But it will never be pure. Harbans Singh insisted of contesting and no one seems to remember that the idiot actually contested the 81 by elections..

Don't let the PAP, the Toa Payoh Brothel and anyone else delude you on opposition unity. Also don't be misled that the opposition does not do any social or interact with the locals int eh areas that they contest. The oppositions does not have People Association to pay the bills for their supporters and even selling party newsletters is a crime. Resources are a major issue and the amount of political donations has also put paid to the amount of resources that can be sought from the willing.

Just be happy that people are ready to contest the elections. My only worry is that some segments are not sure or can't tell the difference between political and social goals. It not that they are mutually exclusive but there is a need for focus and the key is getting support from Singaporeans.

 

[Ramseth]

I do not join NSP because there was a vacuum left by anyone. Sebastian and Law Sin Ling have been doing very well in NSP before I decided to join. In fact, I won't want to take over any leadership post like SG if Sin Ling continues to be the SG. He was doing a great job. In fact, due to my other commitments, I didn't want to take up the SG post when Sin Ling decided to step down.

In short, I didn't think too far ahead when I decided to join NSP. I joined basically because Sebastian is very sincere in his approach and he was the only one who has approached me since I left WP. I was about to give myself a long break after I left WP although I playfully taunted the idea of forming a new political party.

But since Sebastian thinks that I could continue to contribute towards the bigger opposition cause and I could help NSP in many little ways, thus I joined. My little principle is that whichever party I join, wherever I go, I just do my best to serve the bigger aim of political plurality.

Goh Meng Seng

No, you didn't join NSP because there was any vacuum there to fill. You joined to fill the vacuum in you after you left WP. You became Sec-Gen because otherwise, you'd have resigned. Your vacuum couldn't be satisfactorily filled without that kind of position and authority to have your say counted with weightage, the exact reason why you left WP. NSP decided might as well let you be Sec-Gen since nobody else wanted it or have any personal political vacuum to fill anyway.

Politically, that's good for NSP, opposition and the nation in general. Only people who want and can should do it. Don't overdo the stuff about you don't want it but others need and persuade you to do it for the greater good or bigger picture. You'll sound more and more like Cao Cao claiming he didn't want to be King of Wei or Sima Zhao claiming that he didn't want usurp Wei. Even uneducated peasants need no schooling to see through it such that village proverbs were borne out of it.

 

[kingrant]

Good point. I think people generally want to vote for an opposition, and by this, I believe they don't have to mean an Opposition party but an opposing point of view, for a contrarian argument, so whether it comes from a Party or an independent candidate, the people are looking out for people with good standing, able to articulate their concerns, and courageous enough to stand in the line of fire from the mighty political machinery of the PAP and the govt apparachik.

If it is going to take forever to "unite" the Opp parties, then the voters may see another election going to the PAP dogs with even an improved majority, due to the Opp parties pre-occupation with getting 'united". I seriously think we dont need to unite them, something that is idealistic and also unworthy of the effort and time - just a loose alliance will do, with gentleman agreements where to stand to avoid 3 corner fights, and cannibalising votes.

Good men coming forward - with or without a Party behind them- to serve and performing their roles conscientiously to serve constituents and the general populace is something to be encouraged. I know the "free press' and the PAP will want, as Scro said, voters to think that a large party is better than individuals without a Party, but if it is taking so long to cook the turkey , then we will all have to miss the Christmas party.

And never mind that the elected single independent MP cannot form the alternative govt. This is the line that the PAP is always selling. Face it, what we could succeed in doing after doing our darndest, is to create a bigger presence for plurality in parliament and not to form the govt. A tree that has taken years to grow will take many wood cuts and chips to fell it, short of internal rot. So dont expect miracles soon. Thus, stay loose and find diff pathways to the top or at least base camp.

Just be happy that people are ready to contest the elections. My only worry is that some segments are not sure or can't tell the difference between political and social goals. It not that they are mutually exclusive but there is a need for focus and the key is getting support from Singaporeans.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

The people need to know that there is a sufficiently large pool of people able and willing to work for them. It is not the sheer size that will tip the balance but on its own but the number of members in the AP will send a strong signal that a viable alternative is available.

To wait for a single party in SG to be large enough to challenge the PAP is going to be an impossible task because the PAPies will go after any party and their members even before they can formulate any positive change. Just look at what happened to the 'Marxist' group.

In light of our predicament, we do need an alliance. In politics, voters vote for leaders. They will not vote for losers or those seen to be trying their luck.

Lastly, Singaporeans today do not just want an alternative voice in parliament, they know now that a new government is required. A change is required. The PAP, if brought to power in the next GE will continue to destroy the lives of countless numbers of Singaporeans. It is certainly not unimaginable to think that true blue Singaporeans will be a minority in their own country within the next 5 years if the PAP wins the next GE.

The PAPies will destroy the country to ensure that they stay in power. The open-door policy towards FTs is in effect a way for the PAPies to buy votes against a native population that has come to see the light within the PAPies.

APs not fighting for the same turf is not political strategy. It is common sense! Political strategy is when the come together to fight a larger force. It is like losing a battle but with a mind to win the war.

And that is what it has come to. A war to decide the future for Singapore. We have come to the point where we will soon be minorities in our own country. Ruled by a political party that lacks moral aptitude to be politicians. This political party is filled with FTs and things will only get worse for true blue Singaporeans.

Winning the next GE is the only good option. Without a concerted effort on the part of the APs, the voters will be wary of how things will turn out should the PAPies actually lose the GE. Who will form the government? What will happen to the country. Too many uncertainties at play here for a populace unaccustomed towards multi-party parliaments.

A concerted front from the APs will in and of itself lead to at least a 10% swing in the votes, in the favour of the APs. This is how powerful unity will be.

 

[kingrant]

Firstly, it is a pipe dream to think that the Opp camp with the state they are in, can capture power even if they are united, in the next GE. Secondly, Singaporeans need to feel comfortable, reassured and secure about a possible Opp in govt. The latter will not happen overnight despite the foulups of the PAP and the aggravation they have on the people. It is more realistic to expect a Darwinian evolutionary process over the next 3 or even 5 GEs, with each election more votes and inroads being gained, rather than a revolutionary event.

Also, after a number of serious margin erosions, the PAP will come to realise it is ruling with a progressively reduced majority that it must wake up, know that it has to be accountable and transparent and still deliver the goods. While the PAP is sinking, the Opp wld have accumulated more practice in deepwaters, more exposure, higher visibility, increasing parliamentary clout and hopefully more confidence from the voters to poise for a bid at forming a govt the next round. I'm sure the people will love to see the PAP being humbled to their expectations while at the same time, hold a bargaining chip which they can use. The ground seems sweet, let's not screw it up.

 

[scroobal]

Even a single person who is strong, determined and have the political acumen can make an impact in parliament. That will attract more people and eventually there is momentum.

Opposition need to be nimble and not to be distracted by attempting to take on too many things. Things that fall in NGO world and human rights category should be handled lightly while the political journey and the goals must be clear. One has to get votes locally and not play to the foreign gallery.

Foreign interests in the local economics and trade is sufficient for them to work with the govt. They can't be bothered while living in good class as well as black and white bungalows. Bring in clowns and charlatans are not going to help us with one hit wonders.

QUOTE=ChaoPappyPoodle;528967]The people need to know that there is a sufficiently large pool of people able and willing to work for them. It is not the sheer size that will tip the balance but on its own but the number of members in the AP will send a strong signal that a viable alternative is available.

[/QUOTE]

 

[scroobal]

Yes, absolutely. That is another thing that I find interesting - comments about opposition unable to govern. Quite premature. The idea to to form an effective opposition and hold the PAP accountable.

Its rather simple. Capture the seat first.

Firstly, it is a pipe dream to think that the Opp camp with the state they are in, can capture power even if they are united, in the next GE. Secondly, Singaporeans need to feel comfortable, reassured and secure about a possible Opp in govt.

 

[fivestars]

http://yoursda.weebly.com/index.html