Solution to Recession: Increase AssAF Spending!

[The_Latest_H]

Singapore rely on maritime trade for our economy and we need to develop a strong navy and coast guard to protect shipping lanes. There are many incidents of pirates hijacking ships and we stand to lose a lot if we don't protect our shipping lanes against pirates. The worst thing that can happen is European vessels bypass Singapore and go straight to HK/China.

The point is are they making the right investment on equipment. Navy & Coast guard should get a relatively bigger budget than the air force & army until the piracy problems are resolved. Do we really need the F-15 fighter jets ?

If Osama Bin Laden were so scared of F-15 jets, wouldn't he had stopped 9/11 plans from being approved for execution?

The fact is that terrorists are not scared of F-15 jets and military hardware. Once you have occupied a soft target with real weapons, and with real, living hostages, no-one will want to bomb that area sky high. Because if you did, even the worst dictator will suffer from such actions and the pressure in the aftermath.

use your brain la.... an unmanned ship can stay longer and use less fuel than a UAV and carry more equipment.... saying everything UAV si like saying we only need the air force....equally dumb

There's a time to use drones- especially on air- and a time to use manned equipment for search-and-rescue.

There's no hard and fast rule that we must only use either, but not both. What we need is balance so that if the situation asks for either or for both, we will be ready to respond.

Now the SAF doesn't seem to know what they even want. So they rely on Cold War thinking one day, and new warfare tomorrow. There's little to no direction.

 

[snrcitizen]

Singapore rely on maritime trade for our economy and we need to develop a strong navy and coast guard to protect shipping lanes. There are many incidents of pirates hijacking ships and we stand to lose a lot if we don't protect our shipping lanes against pirates. The worst thing that can happen is European vessels bypass Singapore and go straight to HK/China.

The point is are they making the right investment on equipment. Navy & Coast guard should get a relatively bigger budget than the air force & army until the piracy problems are resolved. Do we really need the F-15 fighter jets ?

Well said, except that while the exercise was taking place in the South China Sea, a Singapore flagged ship was attacked by pirates in the Straits of Malacca with the kidnapping of 2 crew members.

All very good with the state of the art expensive equipment and ego building to have a planned exercise but zero from real life application.

 

[The_Latest_H]

Well said, except that while the exercise was taking place in the South China Sea, a Singapore flagged ship was attacked by pirates in the Straits of Malacca with the kidnapping of 2 crew members.

All very good with the state of the art expensive equipment and ego building to have a planned exercise but zero from real life application.

They don't even want to send some of their best touted men to work in tandem with our allies from Oz, Canada, Thailand, the US in a real anti-piracy exercise(which means actual combat) in hot spots around the world..so what do you expect from raw people who has never even experienced pirate attacks?

That's why the Gulf of Aden is such a disappointment. They are sending a ship, a glorified transport ship, not one of the new "radar-invisible" ships, and its gonna be presumed that the Americans or one of the angmoh navy fortilla will protect not just themselves, but the Singaporean one from pirate attacks too.

 

[snrcitizen]

They don't even want to send some of their best touted men to work in tandem with our allies from Oz, Canada, Thailand, the US in a real anti-piracy exercise(which means actual combat) in hot spots around the world..so what do you expect from raw people who has never even experienced pirate attacks?

That's why the Gulf of Aden is such a disappointment. They are sending a ship, a glorified transport ship, not one of the new "radar-invisible" ships, and its gonna be presumed that the Americans or one of the angmoh navy fortilla will protect not just themselves, but the Singaporean one from pirate attacks too.

Yes, their extremely late response to the Somali pirate attacks was a complete disappointment. Even our northern neighbours were there early in the day and saw effective action. More disgusting was fanfare surrounding the sending of ... yes, a landing craft to the area when the party has passed its prime time.

So the expensive state of the art equipment is kept at home for drills and ego enhancing of VIP's, or was the reason for not sending one of those is because of the fear that the pirates would hijack it.

 

[The_Latest_H]

hello, use your brain la, just use your brain.... military equipment needs to be maintained, ppl have to be paid to do that and that also includes army personnel and that means jobs are created or at least saved. a ship has many parts including electronics, engines and other parts that requires maintenance and servicing; again this means jobs saved or created......pls use your brain

How many people can we hire as regulars before it becomes a pain on taxpayers money? Don't forget that the wages of regulars in the armed forces also come from taxpayers money.

There's only a certain amount of bombs, ships, F-15s and what not we can buy; and then, the government will also need more money to employ people to learn these weapon systems, before it becomes a strain on the government annual budget. The government cannot spend its majority of the budget on the armed services, until it raises taxes, and too high a tax on everyone, rich and poor will put the economy in a bad shape.

I mean, if it were so easy that defence spending will make us a richer country, then North Korea would be even richer and more developed than us. As it is, it's not. Modern weapons, unlike those during the WWII era are more advanced and more expensive to build and maintain. Hence the scope of economic growth through higher defence spending is much more limited these days.

PS: Btw it has to be noted that Singapore has a conscription army, not a volunteer army. Hence even if we want to create jobs in the armed services, there's already a problem with personnel saturation. Unlike the US, and the UK, which has the capacity to expand their services, and create jobs, we don't have that luxury, with already 300,000 men in total, both active and reservist.

 

[snrcitizen]

Modern weapons, unlike those during the WWII era are more advanced and more expensive to build and maintain. Hence the scope of economic growth through higher defence spending is much more limited these days.

The splurging can only mean one thing. Supporting Obama's "Buy American" policy.

 

[The_Latest_H]

The splurging can only mean one thing. Supporting Obama's "Buy American" policy.

Its all very well, until you realise the money spent helps American defence companies, and not ours. The jobs created by Boeing and Lockheed, located in the US, won't somehow trickle down to here(even if it does, its almost nil).

What we need is more jobs here right now, and not there.

 

[snrcitizen]

Its all very well, until you realise the money spent helps American defence companies, and not ours. The jobs created by Boeing and Lockheed, located in the US, won't somehow trickle down to here(even if it does, its almost nil).

What we need is more jobs here right now, and not there.

Know what you mean. I was saying the above in half jest. It's just like the billions thrown away to Cti, UBS, Meryl Lynch and the rest. Great help to our economy. Just for argument, even if the economic bubble did not burst and both GIC and Temasek made a killing, what does it mean to the man in the street? Nothing.

It is the same old story year in year out, our money is being used with impunity and with no accountability and definitely no benefit to us.

 

[sleaguepunter]

use your brain la.... an unmanned ship can stay longer and use less fuel than a UAV and carry more equipment.... saying everything UAV si like saying we only need the air force....equally dumb

i had no idea what the range for that unmanned vessel, but only 7m, dont think can last more than a day. An UAV had enough fuel for at least 8hrs of operation and UAVs are always deploy together to ensure continue operations.What equipments u want to put on a unmanned vessel? It only that weapon system that was missing from the UAV. While the UAV dont carry a gun platform, but it can carry missiles when needed.

I not against new technology but why waste money on a new technology when UAV is more than adequte for the purposes.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Its all very well, until you realise the money spent helps American defence companies, and not ours. The jobs created by Boeing and Lockheed, located in the US, won't somehow trickle down to here(even if it does, its almost nil).

What we need is more jobs here right now, and not there.

But putting money in the hand of DSTA also as good as throwing money into the longkang.

 

[sleaguepunter]

hello, use your brain la, just use your brain.... military equipment needs to be maintained, ppl have to be paid to do that and that also includes army personnel and that means jobs are created or at least saved. a ship has many parts including electronics, engines and other parts that requires maintenance and servicing; again this means jobs saved or created......pls use your brain

actually u the see SAF very up. Fyi, SAF personnel can only do low level maintainence and repair on their eqiupments. I dont know what type of unit u belong to when u serve your National Service, but my unit engage many foreign contractors for the maintainence and servicing. Even now when i go back for ICTs, can still see Angmos holding visitor pass walking around. In the end, the money spend for mantainence will go to the foreign companies that employ these foreign contractors.

 

[The_Latest_H]

But putting money in the hand of DSTA also as good as throwing money into the longkang.

Well, I've always been suspicious of claims by people that by increasing defence spending, we will help the economy overwhelmingly. I mean, historically they aren't wrong- but times have changed since WWII when factories could employ thousands of men and women to make propeller fighter planes, and help employment.

These days, to produce an F-15, a military aircraft factory needs to employ only a few hundred, pay them much more, and then try to add even more unspecified toys into the plan, so as to make the planes more expensive due to extension in the time frame to deliver.

So in the view of the Iraqi war, where the US spent billions, and got little or benefit in return, and in light of our own billions spent on procuring expensive, Cold War(thinking) weapon systems, and getting little or no jobs being generated in return, I have largely believed that if a government is to create more jobs, then it has to be largely civilians, and with the trust that an equilibrium between locals and foreigners is sought strongly.

Because even if the government manages to create more jobs through public infrastructure and more tax credits to SMEs and individuals, if the majority are going to unskilled and skilled foreigners, whose background are largely in doubt, then it simply benefits no-one.

 

[lancheowman]

if osama bin laden were so scared of f-15 jets, wouldn't he had stopped 9/11 plans from being approved for execution?

The fact is that terrorists are not scared of f-15 jets and military hardware. Once you have occupied a soft target with real weapons, and with real, living hostages, no-one will want to bomb that area sky high. Because if you did, even the worst dictator will suffer from such actions and the pressure in the aftermath.

there's a time to use drones- especially on air- and a time to use manned equipment for search-and-rescue.

There's no hard and fast rule that we must only use either, but not both. What we need is balance so that if the situation asks for either or for both, we will be ready to respond.

Now the saf doesn't seem to know what they even want. So they rely on cold war thinking one day, and new warfare tomorrow. There's little to no direction.

the dumbest h, osama bin laden is not a pirate and we are not talking abt terrorists, when are you going to pass your comprehension if ever?

AND pls read the posts before u made such inconsequential and irrelevant statements...thank you

 

[lancheowman]

actually u the see saf very up. Fyi, saf personnel can only do low level maintainence and repair on their eqiupments. I dont know what type of unit u belong to when u serve your national service, but my unit engage many foreign contractors for the maintainence and servicing. Even now when i go back for icts, can still see angmos holding visitor pass walking around. In the end, the money spend for mantainence will go to the foreign companies that employ these foreign contractors.

i served in a guards unit. WAT KIND OF GIRLIE UNIT ARE YOU FROM? DO YOU GET CHINA GIRL TO HELP YOU CARRY FULLPACK TOO?

Low levEl maintenance and repair is still generAting $ for economy even angmo come to singapore also have to stay in sg hotel and spend $ here. So use your brain since you have no body.

 

[lancheowman]

how many people can we hire as regulars before it becomes a pain on taxpayers money? Don't forget that the wages of regulars in the armed forces also come from taxpayers money.

There's only a certain amount of bombs, ships, f-15s and what not we can buy; and then, the government will also need more money to employ people to learn these weapon systems, before it becomes a strain on the government annual budget. The government cannot spend its majority of the budget on the armed services, until it raises taxes, and too high a tax on everyone, rich and poor will put the economy in a bad shape.

I mean, if it were so easy that defence spending will make us a richer country, then north korea would be even richer and more developed than us. As it is, it's not. Modern weapons, unlike those during the wwii era are more advanced and more expensive to build and maintain. Hence the scope of economic growth through higher defence spending is much more limited these days.

ps: Btw it has to be noted that singapore has a conscription army, not a volunteer army. Hence even if we want to create jobs in the armed services, there's already a problem with personnel saturation. Unlike the us, and the uk, which has the capacity to expand their services, and create jobs, we don't have that luxury, with already 300,000 men in total, both active and reservist.

the dumbest h,

your govt does not survive only on taxpayer's money. Your govt controls the money supply in the country too. And taxation is not the only monetary tools govt can use to influence the economy. And i said govt expenditure will stimulate the economy and not defence spending.

i noe this is difficult for your little brain; imagine if i hire a hundred workers and pay them $4000.00 to build missiles, they take $4000 and spend on other things to buy this and dat from shopowners here and there and the shopowners made the money and in turn spend more....are you following?

And pls, using north korea is the most stupid example cos it is a planned economy and has no free market. i.e its allocation respurces are screwed up and thats why they are screwed up like you

nobody is suggesting that the saf hires everybody as a soldier toi ensure 100% employment. Why did you get that dumb idea from?

 

[lancheowman]

use yours too.. Put a lancheowman unmanned ship can stay for eternity but cannot find pirates for fuck

and your second statement is equally stupid.. Your knowledge of the military is zero.

both your statements are just stupid like you.

And you even want to fuck pirates...wat kind of sick person are you?

 

[Papsmearer]

anyways...the committment to purchase was made years before during the economic good times - unlike their investments in citi and UBS..anyways, thats another story.

I think its about time some investments are made on the ships....

U can mothball the entire fleet and save $1 billion every year. Same for most of the airforce. And by Leo 2 tanks for fuck?

 

[The_Latest_H]

the dumbest h,

your govt does not survive only on taxpayer's money. Your govt controls the money supply in the country too. And taxation is not the only monetary tools govt can use to influence the economy. And i said govt expenditure will stimulate the economy and not defence spending.

i noe this is difficult for your little brain; imagine if i hire a hundred workers and pay them $4000.00 to build missiles, they take $4000 and spend on other things to buy this and dat from shopowners here and there and the shopowners made the money and in turn spend more....are you following?

And pls, using north korea is the most stupid example cos it is a planned economy and has no free market. i.e its allocation respurces are screwed up and thats why they are screwed up like you

nobody is suggesting that the saf hires everybody as a soldier toi ensure 100% employment. Why did you get that dumb idea from?

Silly, you say that as if that's news to me. It isn't news to me, because I have learnt it already. And its pretty clear that SAF cannot hire everyone to ensure employment. What I meant is that they cannot increase their hiring beyond a certain limit without incurring a cost- an opportunity cost. And this would mean higher taxes and more inflation.

Increasing their hiring numbers never simply meant that SAF was aiming for 100% employment of all citizens. I think its you who's confused in the first place.

And increasingly your insults just goes to show, despite your absence of the last several years, your attitude is the same as last time; it hasn't grown up, and neither have you. You have a nice day.

i served in a guards unit. WAT KIND OF GIRLIE UNIT ARE YOU FROM? DO YOU GET CHINA GIRL TO HELP YOU CARRY FULLPACK TOO?

Low levEl maintenance and repair is still generAting $ for economy even angmo come to singapore also have to stay in sg hotel and spend $ here. So use your brain since you have no body.

A few hundred of millions quid for a few thousand dollars a night? I guess you haven't done percentages in secondary school, haven't you? Btw, if that was that percentage say 1000/100,000,000, that's not even 1% return. Its basically small change, and pocket change is not enough a return for hundreds of millions we pay for F-15s, dude. Economically, the returns are too small to justify such a huge outlay.

 

[red amoeba]

U can mothball the entire fleet and save $1 billion every year. Same for most of the airforce. And by Leo 2 tanks for fuck?

fact is, our AMX is due for renewal - they are too old and unable to withstand modern tank rounds. Which other tank model is available now that is suitable for SAF? The M1A1 is good to have but expensive to operate. Moreover, its a fuel guzzler and its too big and heavy for our terrain.

Ditto for the Israeli -and god knows what the neighbours think when they heard we are buying from Israel. The only logical tank left is the german - who since WW2 are well known for their tanks. I am not sure but I think they must have made some modifications to customise the tanks for use in our terrain / weather.

 

[red amoeba]

Well said, except that while the exercise was taking place in the South China Sea, a Singapore flagged ship was attacked by pirates in the Straits of Malacca with the kidnapping of 2 crew members.

All very good with the state of the art expensive equipment and ego building to have a planned exercise but zero from real life application.

to be fair, the pirates are smart as well - they don't operate in Singapore part of the Straits of Malacca (which incidentally is not very big). They will operate and hit ships in Internationl waters before fleeing into Mudland or indon waters....we cannot just unleash the warships into the waters to blow them out of the water...protocol dictates that we ask Mudland and Indon for their action - which we all know, is half past six.

With regards to participation in the anti-pirates war at Somalia - i believe a large part why we are so late is because we don't have the suitable vessel to send - our LS are tied up - if I don't remembered wrongly one in Persian Gulf and I believe one or two is out on mission and there should be one or two based in singapore just in case. besides the landing ship, our Navy does not have another bigger ship or capable ship to make the long trip west.