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scoopdreams

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All too often, a golden opportunity for education and learning is set aside for blood and frenzy. Being social animals, human beings are comfortable with staying inside groups that are of the same alignment as themselves. When will they realize that the world is not just made up of a single group of perceptions? When will they realize if they are only willing to open their minds and listen, a most amazing world of diverse thoughts and cultures is out there? When will they realize they can add wings to their minds, and let their thoughts take flight?

No learning is ever done if you just stay within your circle. No learning is ever done if you do not open your minds and listen. The Christians will only know 'Hallelujah', the Moslems 'Allah Akbar", and the Buddhists the drone of chanting.

I should have listened when veteran journalists told me "Tell the people what they already know, and what they already believed in. Otherwise you'll be taken for a fool. News is exactly anti-news."

Then again, I'd rather very much be the fool who saw the jest in life, oh cruel life, than be the king who saw only his kingdom, oh glorious kingdom.
 
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londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
what's wrong with this?

if you are on alcohol, u need help, there's AA.

if you are on drugs, u need help, there's detox centre...

So I take it you are pro conversion therapy:

Homosexuals have a mental disorder and need help
Pastor Derek Hong will pray for and counsel gays
and miracle of miracles, the gay fellow will emerge straight

Never mind the side effects like severe depression brought on by guilt (induced by rather forceful counselling)
Suicide
etc...

Never mind that medical and scientific organizations now treat conversion therapy as a marginalized practice pursued by religious organizations.
 

londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Scoopdreams,

"I will be looking forward to seeing discussion on the raw issues this episode have brought up into society - if it ever happens. The victors on the throne, the vanquished all alone. Fiery passions have dissolved, but concerns yet resolved."

I had an interesting chat with some people (on both sides) who attended on Sat. It isn't a straightforward victory for the old guard. There were many who voted with Josie & Co and they are not feeling vanquished. AWARE was framed as a pro homosexual organization and this label has stuck. The issue remains as raw as ever and we can expect more "discussions", in a more civil setting hopefully.

"Usually one sees this kind of behaviour from those who holds opposite viewpoints, and who wants things their way, period. It has nothing to do with honest replies or anything you have just mentioned. Scroobal, the audience wanted blood that day, and they knew they had the backing and reasons to get it."

The audience wanted Josie and Co out. They saw a grievous injustice and sought to do right by AWARE. With that objective achieved, I now expect AWARE to continue engaging opposing viewpoints like they always have ie. with tolerance and civility

"Ah, then I must be a total fool indeed! Polite sarcasm is a lot more satisfying to me than outright rudeness. Of course, I'm sure you, being not an idiot, would disdain this train of thoughts, and very much prefer to engage in a contest of name-calling and unskillful jabs not uncommon in this forum.[/QUOTE]"

I'm afraid polite sarcasm would have been lost on that bunch
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
kakowi: "their stand on homosexuality is one of the most reasonable stand i had come across."

londontrader: "In case it isn't obvious to you, COOS is advocating conversion therapy."

TeeKee: "what's wrong with this? if you are on alcohol, u need help, there's AA. if you are on drugs, u need help, there's detox centre..."



TeeKee

AA does not accept that alcohol is reasonable
Detox centre does not accept that drugs is reasonable

So you are agreeing with londontrader that
COOS and its conversion therapy, do not accept that homosexuality is reasonable

what's wrong with you? flu? :biggrin:
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Not to worry bro. In fact I see a wider debate fronting all of us. The 377 issue was pretty much confined to parliament and few select groups and individuals. The vast majority wanted to be politically correct or appear fasionably liberal or for whatever reason they had decided to remain quiet.

Thio did one good. She forced the issue out. Singaporeans cannot sit down pretend that they no part in how this country evolves. Sadly the manner that she did it has destroyed her and unfortunately her daughter no matter how quiet she has been.

We as a society must encourage independent thought and not allowed to herd people like sheep. They were well behaved, bussed to the location, unable to throw out a genuine independent thought reeks of dogma gone wild.

If Suntec was actually on a vote for pro-gay or pro-family in the general sense. The latter would have won overwhelmingly. Why? The conventional family is the bedrock of civilisation. I don't know why the Thios think that they are fighting a lone battle?
In fact half the clowns in the forum think that the pro-gays won.

Society of course will not reject the Gays but will reduce any form of unnecessary discrimination as they are blood and bones like everyone else. This is probably where the rest of society will detach themselves from the Thios.

On another note, I found some encouraging development. A muslim lady with tudung spoke well and pointedly and another Malay man spoke on the CSE in passionate and measured tone. The Malays have long being given strict OB markers and this did not stop them.




This was not just any ordinary general meeting, and we should not apply the usual expectations for it.

However, you and londontrader are right.

I will be looking forward to seeing discussion on the raw issues this episode have brought up into society - if it ever happens. The victors on the throne, the vanquished all alone. Fiery passions have dissolved, but concerns yet resolved.

Usually one sees this kind of behaviour from those who holds opposite viewpoints, and who wants things their way, period. It has nothing to do with honest replies or anything you have just mentioned. Scroobal, the audience wanted blood that day, and they knew they had the backing and reasons to get it.

Ah, then I must be a total fool indeed! Polite sarcasm is a lot more satisfying to me than outright rudeness. Of course, I'm sure you, being not an idiot, would disdain this train of thoughts, and very much prefer to engage in a contest of name-calling and unskillful jabs not uncommon in this forum.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Scroobal, the audience wanted blood that day, and they knew they had the backing and reasons to get it."

I afraid you are right.


I'm afraid polite sarcasm would have been lost on that bunch

You are absolutely right here. Sumiko came to same conclusion where Josie was concerned. I found it interesting that they got Sumiko to do the interview.
 

kakowi

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Kakowi,

"their stand on homosexuality is one of the most reasonable stand i had come across."

You seem quite impressed with their approach. Have you read their statement on homosexuality? Perhaps you could share an opinion on the following extract:

------------------------
Through our Choices Ministry, we have had the privilege of coming alongside numerous people in the past 15 years who struggled with this issue. Our Choices Ministry provides both counseling and spiritual help for those who want to be set free from homosexual thoughts, tendencies and practices. Here are testimonies of God's healing power in the lives of two former homosexuals :

A Second Chance by Mabel Sim
Finding & Learning the Truth by Shawn Tay
We can provide you with many more.


God provides great comfort and strength for those who repent of their sins and who trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Repentance is necessary and is also possible for all sins — including homosexual practice.

--------------------------------

In case it isn't obvious to you, COOS is advocating conversion therapy.
Any comments?

Dear LondonTrader,

Why is this a very reasonable stand?

Firstly, this is from the context of a church. Therefore it sets out its theology behind its stand. Giving anyone the right to go away if they do not agree.

Secondly, it sets forth the belief that God loves both the homosexual and the heterosexual. Therefore the peoples are loved by God. It is the sin that God hates.

It would appear that you took offence at this second part and alluded to the label 'conversion therapy' when you read the testimonies of those who succeeded in overcoming homosexuality.

These testimonies has shown that it is a condition that others had came out of.

If there are homosexuals who want to overcome their homosexuality, they can certainly explore it, to see if it is effective for them.

For those who see the testimonies as 'conversion therapy', they can stay away. Again, nothing is hidden.

The point to note is that that church offers help in overcoming what they see as a sin.

If they had just said it is a sin and leave it as that, then they would be no better than those who point fingers and do not lift a hand to help.


Thirdly, and this is that church's own opinion,
Therefore any form of homophobic expression is wrong and is a sin against God. It is evil for anyone, most of all Christians, to verbally or physically torment or injure homosexuals.

There is no scriptural evidence to say that homophobic expression is a sin against God. Thus it can only be that church's opinion.

My guess is that in the course of this sub-ministry of theirs, they would have encountered real emotions - the feelings of the homosexuals themselves and wanted to set a healing environment for them - one in which the mainstream gives them acceptance.

Thus their specific reminder of christian charity towards homosexuals as human beings.

..............

These three points collectively makes their stand one of the most reasonable ones (in the context of biblical churches):
(1) a statement of their theological position - nothing hidden, if you are not interested, you can stay away

(2) if you are a homosexual, God loves you and we can help you as we had helped others successfully

(3) let's all of us in the church accept the homosexual as a human being and give them acceptance - the problem is the sin, not the sinner

In summary, these set forth my understanding of their position which makes it one of the most reasonable: a theological statement, an offer of help (if you want it) and an environment where help can take place.
 

kakowi

Alfrescian
Loyal
...

Then again, I'd rather very much be the fool who saw the jest in life, oh cruel life, than be the king who saw only his kingdom, oh glorious kingdom.


I feel that this is the desire of philosophers in life - to create our own Walden, to find our own way, to be regarded as a fool for disdaining what the king deems precious.

Unfortunately, it is a reality that even jesters lived in the structure that the king creates.

It is the desire to shape that structure that caused the problem. In the end, only the winner can shape it - in the office, in organizations, in society and in politics.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Kakowi, keen to hear your views on Cherian's article...no obligations though:wink:

AWARE: Lessons from a fiasco
Monday, 4 May 2009, 11:00 pm | 7,752 views


By Cherian George

The battle for control of Aware can be a learning experience for civil society activists and the wider public. There are at least three lessons to reflect on: the brand of secularism that works for Singapore; the type of representation that civil society organisations should offer; and the level of transparency and accountability that the public deserve from such groups.

Secularism

Some may view the outcome of the Aware showdown as a triumph over religious values and then – depending on their standpoint – either despair or gloat. But, this would be a wrong reading of events and only set the stage for more confrontational encounters.

The battle for Aware should be seen instead as a struggle over how – not whether – to insert faith-based values into public life. While there are some societies that interpret secularism as delegitimising the entry of religious values into the public sphere, that has never been Singapore’s way. Secularism here acknowledges that many Singaporeans are spiritually oriented; it respects their right to inject faith-based words and actions into public life.


Crucially, however, the state stays separate and equidistant from the different religions. Even more crucially, when there are disagreements over public matters, Singaporean secularism cannot recognise religious arguments as a trump card. One could allow one’s reading of God’s will to dictate how one runs one’s own household or faith-based community (and even then only within the limits of the law); but God’s word cannot be the final word on how collective decisions are made in the public sphere.

People of a particular faith must therefore be able to translate their values into secular terms to the satisfaction of fellow citizens who do not share those values, or else accept graciously that their desires are, for the moment, incompatible with what the wider society wants.

The Aware battle was not between the profane and the sacred, but between those who understand Singaporean secularism and those who apparently do not. The concerted steps they took to subvert a secular organisation and rid its leadership of its traditional diversity showed that the insurgents did not want merely to be part of a conversation; they wanted to be the only voice.

When intolerant – and considerably more violent – voices have surfaced in other religious communities, the moderate mainstream had to rise up to reclaim the microphone, to assure themselves and their fellow citizens that their faith was entirely compatible with peaceful co-existence in a multicultural and democratic society. Similarly, one of the most positive outcomes of the Aware saga is the strong assertion by Singaporeans of faith and their religious leaders: we are here, our faith makes us and our society stronger, but we will not impose our values on others.

Representation

The Aware old guard accused the insurgents of not reflecting Singapore’s cultural diversity. The insurgents retorted that, compared with the liberal old guard, their conservative values were more representative of Singapore’s majority. Who was right? Both, probably. But, neither diversity nor representativeness is a necessary or sufficient criterion when assessing a civil society group.

First, while the expectation that a civil society organisation (CSO) should represent the majority view is superficially seductive, it is in fact fundamentally flawed. CSOs are not political parties, which must appeal to the majority to win elections. One of the chief values of CSOs is precisely that they fill the gaps left by political parties (and by the private sector), by serving causes that the majority may not embrace.

For example, the majority of Singaporeans would probably not go out of their way to improve the lives of strangers with disabilities. When voluntary welfare organisations work passionately for the interests of disabled, it would be rather perverse if we criticised them for not representing the views of most Singaporeans.

Indeed, if crude democratic logic were applied to gender issues, there would have been no Aware in the first place: when it was set up, most Singaporeans – men and women – held sexist views about the proper place of women and the abuses that they should endure quietly. That many CSOs are not representative is a fact, and a healthy one.

Still, some may wonder if society should tolerate CSOs that embrace seemingly far-out views. Again, it is important not to confuse CSOs with political parties. Electoral politics is more or less a zero-sum game. The winning party controls the government, which in turn monopolises certain powers and resources – including the powers to tax and to command the armed forces.

Civil society space is quite different. CSOs can gain influence, but have no power to set national policy. Furthermore, multiple CSOs can work within the same space simultaneously. Since a CSO has no monopoly over its area of work, it has no moral obligation to be representative in its values – or, for that matter, in its racial or religious composition. If others are fundamentally opposed to its direction, they can set up their own organisation.

CSOs face an inherent tension. On the one hand, they require a certain solidarity and unity of purpose if they are to overcome challenges. On the other hand, internal diversity can be a key strength: a group’s problem-solving capacity is enhanced when it is able to look at situations from multiple angles.

While it may be unfair and unrealistic to expect each CSO to reflect all colours of the rainbow, a CSO that aims to have national impact should certainly be outward-looking. An internally homogeneous community-based CSO is not a problem in itself; it should be judged by the friends it has. It deserves to be viewed with skepticism if it is unable to work with groups representing other communities. Fortunately, several faith-based and ethnic-based groups in Singapore have excellent records of working side by side with other groups, regardless of race, language or religion.

Transparency

Setting aside the substantive disagreements, the Aware saga offers lessons about civil society governance and process. What alarmed many neutral observers was the way the insurgents went about their plans.

Civil society groups that want influence and respect should be transparent in their dealings and be ready to account for themselves. It would be an understatement to say that the insurgents were unprepared for the intense public scrutiny they attracted.

They were secretive in their plan to take over Aware and coy about their intentions. Based on their public statements, it is still unclear how much they were motivated by a single issue: their opposition to Aware’s liberal stand on homosexuality. If this was their target all along, it does not speak well for them that they did not state it plainly and publicly at the outset.

If this was not their primary concern, then an even more troubling concern arises. Their allegations at the height of the dispute, that Aware had been promoting homosexuality to children and teens, smack of a cynical (but, sadly, historically effective) political ploy: win support from the masses by turning a marginalised minority into an object of fear.

In many societies, the tactic would have worked. Governments lacking in moral courage are known to side with intolerant forces when they whip up mass sentiment against minorities. Fortunately, it did not work here. The Ministry of Education’s measured and rational response took the wind out of the sails of the insurgents and exposed them as scaremongers.

The Government is not known to be sympathetic to the progressive agenda of Aware’s liberals. Perhaps the insurgents had hoped that dragging the school sexuality programme into the debate would prod the Government to take its side. If so, they miscalculated. If there is one thing that is stronger than its antipathy towards liberal values, it is the Government’s resistance to letting its power and prestige become tools in the hands of any lobby group, whatever its ideological complexion.

No doubt, the weekend’s events would have made the insurgents feel utterly misunderstood and underappreciated, as losing factions are wont to. They have nobody to blame but themselves. No matter how pure their intentions, their words and actions were patently out of place in Singaporean civil society.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Kakowi, ditto Simon's piece:wink:

A tale of two communities
In a society as diverse as ours, restraint, tolerance should be order of the day

Simon Tay



THE clash of different interest groups in Aware has made headlines in recent weeks, perhaps too many. With the outcome of the weekend’s extraordinary general meeting now known, attention is likely to shift elsewhere.
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But there are things to observe from this controversy that should be drawn not only for those directly involved. This is not an isolated incident, nor one that tells us that citizens are doomed to clash loudly and angrily. The lessons that can be learnt pertain to our civil society and how governance evolves.
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Vertical and Horizontal Societies
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The Aware saga shows that citizens now relate to each other directly and not only to the government. Singapore is no longer a vertical society, but one with horizontal links.
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In a vertical society, citizens link only to the government. From the early years of Singapore, and even today, our political leaders have exhorted citizens on the full range of issues, like littering and having more children if we can afford it, so much so that it becomes part of the national agenda.
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Even when the politics of consultation evolved under former Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong, we remained a vertical society. Consultation simply meant dialogue between the Government and citizens became more of a two-way street.
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A horizontal society is one where citizens form different groups that express their own interests and beliefs and act independently of the government.
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Issues are handled within and between these groups, with less reference and deference to the government, especially on personal or moral issues. The government’s role can then be cut back to refocus on core national issues like security.
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A civil society can provide more space for citizens to be active and contribute. But it is not idyllic. There can be differences between groups that lead to conflict, which may lead to the kind of electoral battles seen in the Aware saga. There can even be violent clashes between rival camps.
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However, horizontal society is not necessarily fraught with conflict and therefore to be avoided. Civil society groups can and do work together for mutual benefit.
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Take for instance, the arts community. While headlines focused on the Aware clash, our arts community came together to select their representatives for consideration to be a Nominated Member of Parliament.
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The arts community is not without its differences. But these were put aside for a common and higher goal — to ensure that artistic causes receive better representation in Parliament. There are other examples where civil society groups cooperate.
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Communities of Interests
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But why do some groups clash? Different viewpoints are only part of the reason. After all, differences can be discussed and understanding — rather than conflict — can result. This is an essential tenet of democracy.
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This is a second lesson to be drawn from the Aware episode. While the matter was settled constitutionally, by voting, this is a bare legality. Democracy must involve more than the capture of power by votes. Otherwise, both sides only learn the habits of organising for power, rather than of accommodation and discussion. Knowing that differences exist, groups of citizens should increase the tolerance for, and acceptance of differences.
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But some groups may press for others to be assimilated to their views and seek to oppose or suborn them. This is a third observation we can draw from the Aware case, in which individuals from a church came together because of accusations (subsequently refuted) that Aware promotes gay and lesbian causes.
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They could have campaigned against Aware, started their own group or complained to the relevant ministry. Instead, their instinct, as promoted by self-described “Feminist Mentor” Thio Su Mien, was to take over Aware. Can one imagine the reverse? That someone who disagreed with the teachings of a religious group try to take over that group?
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The attitude of most secular groups is to leave religion alone. We must hope conversely that religious groups — however much they believe in their positions — should also respect the rights of other secular groups.
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This does not mean secular groups must be devoid of religious sentiment. Belief can drive individuals to work for charities, even if those charities are secular. But a line has to be drawn and observed. The more fervent religious groups become in our society, the more we should try to respect that line.
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Governing Diversity
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What if different groups clash? While Singapore is developing a horizontal dimension, the vertical axis of government has a role to play in governing diverse groups.
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While eschewing liberal democracy, the government has evolved a degree of acceptance for citizen groups. From the early 1990s, Foreign Minister George Yeo elegantly explored this theme, even if he preferred the more conservative term of “civic” society. The Singapore 21 consultation, then chaired by Mr Teo Chee Hean, now Deputy Prime Minister, also explored the emergence of a people sector.
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Re-reading ministerial statements on civil society explains why and how the Government acted in the Aware episode, or ways in which it refused to arbitrate on the matter.
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It is not that Government leaders support Aware’s agenda under the Old Guard. Indeed, it is more likely that a number would personally have sympathy for groups that espouse conservative values in sexuality, gays and lesbians. The People’s Action Party’s leadership seems to recognise that they should not ask whether they personally agree with a view put forward by a group. No political leader offered his or her moral preference.
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Instead, the Aware episode seems to suggest that the Government will set out broader parameters of acceptable behaviour. So long as they keep within those boundaries and do not threaten safety or public order, the prevailing attitude is to refrain from interceding as much as possible. If they have to intercede, they seem careful to act with restraint and fairness.
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Going forward, the Government would do well to remain watchful but not anxious about most citizen’s groups.
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Singapore society is becoming more complex. Civil society and interest and voluntary groups and associations have become more active. So have organised religious groups. Differences are inevitable.
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But conflicts can be managed and clashes avoided. If not, groups run the danger of Government intervention or worse, increased distrust and disinterest of average citizens in their cause.
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The preferred means for managing conflicts and avoiding clashes between civil society groups should not be the vertical strong arm of the Government. Nor even the test of strength and numbers by one group acting against another.
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We can hope and expect that groups that emerge in civil society will depend first on their self-restraint. This should be borne out of a respect of diversity and a broad appreciation of the rights of others to their own opinions, even if — in their eyes — others do not have the right views.
 

londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
Kakowi,

Thanks for taking the time to express an opinion
Before I reply, can I clarify something?

COOS has been accused of being anti-homosexual
Do you think this is justified?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Unusally Uncherian like article. Looks like he switched persona with Janadas.

By Cherian George

The battle for control of Aware can be a learning experience for civil society activists and the wider public. There are at least three lessons to reflect on: the brand of secularism that works for Singapore; the type of representation that civil society organisations should offer; and the level of transparency and accountability that the public deserve from such groups.

Secularism
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
really?...well i quite liked this piece...but looks like cherian was off the mark on the wind being taken away from dr thio and josie's sails altogether...MOE now pulling the plug on Aware's CSE programme...
Unusally Uncherian like article. Looks like he switched persona with Janadas.
 
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