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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I think you just described all overbearing zealots from all religions not just Christians. More the converts and the born again lot.

I seldom see this kind of behavior in those that are born into religion.



Dear Kawoki

As a Christian who has been for a large part of his life in the evangelical and charismatic tradtition, trust me when I say moralizing, demonizing of one's opponent comes easy to some Christians. And yes I believe I have met enough fellow christians of Darth Thio and Lord Josie Lau to understand how they think.

Firstly they view the world in moral absolutes. No shades of grey here, the bible is the absolute literal truth. Secondly they are devout, if there was a bible study competition, or a bible reading competition (similar to Koranic reading contests) they would be there amongst the best. Lastly because of one and two we have three a deadly tendency to moralize not out of humility but out of a sense of self superiority.
Locke
 

londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Kakowi,

"their stand on homosexuality is one of the most reasonable stand i had come across."

You seem quite impressed with their approach. Have you read their statement on homosexuality? Perhaps you could share an opinion on the following extract:

------------------------
Through our Choices Ministry, we have had the privilege of coming alongside numerous people in the past 15 years who struggled with this issue. Our Choices Ministry provides both counseling and spiritual help for those who want to be set free from homosexual thoughts, tendencies and practices. Here are testimonies of God's healing power in the lives of two former homosexuals :

A Second Chance by Mabel Sim
Finding & Learning the Truth by Shawn Tay
We can provide you with many more.


God provides great comfort and strength for those who repent of their sins and who trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Repentance is necessary and is also possible for all sins — including homosexual practice.

--------------------------------

In case it isn't obvious to you, COOS is advocating conversion therapy.
Any comments?
 

londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
Sorry, I had to do a double-take when I read your line. Are you saying you approve of girls experimenting sex with guys?

Riiiigght... Now, if you could kindly direct me to the nearest registration counter, and pass me the sign-up form and a pen...

Come over to the UK!
no need to sign up, just join the party
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Kawoki

I stand corrected on that point and I was being unfair. The community work of COOS is wide spread and does cover the spectrum of social needs.

If I could rephrase that point in a differing matter. The public actions, letters written to the press, actions taken by the members seem to indicate an inordinate amount of agony, self flagellation, and lobbying over issues related to sex, sexuality and education of sexuality. Whilst the church may do many things, its strongest actions words and deeds seem in my view to be of a single track.




Locke
 

londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
"Should boorish behaviour ever be condoned? It's understandable, but cannot be encouraged, and must not be condoned. The old guard with their supporters truly cried havoc and let slip the dogs of war this time."

I'm sure you know that life doesn't exist in black and white (except in Thio Su Mien Land). There were many hot heads and things got out of hand. When attacked, people fight back. A primal instinct that is very much a part of all of us. That's why it is dangerous to push and push and PUSH one's agenda down other peoples' throats! All religious zealots should take note!

I don't condone the boorishness but I understand that all of us are capable of that if pushed hard enough.

"Anger should and must always be tempered, and the other party be given a listening ear too. Otherwise, how are you different from the other party who is trying to impose their agenda on you?[/QUOTE]"

The leadership (old guard) adopted a measured tone throughout the proceedings despite some hot headed supporters. The opposition will have that listening ear now that the dust has started to settle.
 

londontrader

Alfrescian
Loyal
"It's more like a "genuine sigh" that after millenias of evolution, human beings still have not conquered baser instincts and reached a civil state."

I don't think they ever will

The primal consciousness in man is pre-mental, and has nothing to do with cognition. It is the same as in the animals. And this pre-mental consciousness remains as long as we live the powerful root and body of our consciousness. The mind is but the last flower, the _cul de sac_.

DH Lawrence


"All I'm saying is, if the old guard are truly of a reasonable and civil nature, should not they have attempted to rein in their supporters so a better discourse could have taken place? Were they taking advantage of the frenzy? Did they get political?"

1. It became political the day Josie & Co hijacked the AWARE AGM. I think the old guard accept that one needs to bone up on "the art of the possible" if they choose to deal with such controversial topics like homosexuality.

2. The objective of the EGM was pretty clear (to right a wrong) and it certainly wasn't a day for leisurely debates about conflicting positions.

3. Now that all has been said and done, I think you will get the civil discourse that we all want.

"It's a perfectly valid course of action though. I was hoping to see some serious debates on the opposing perspectives with regards to key issues during the EGM,"

Not the time and place my friend
I expect better discourse to follow
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes well said Locke...i think teo chee hean was spot when he said

...I think if you believe that what you are doing is right, well, live a good life, do good work and persuade people by how you work and live rather than pushing your ideas in a much more pushy way...I think there are ways where we can engage with society and still live with our differences
Dear London, Kawoki


7. Finally stop seeking political positions of influence no matter how alluring to advance your cause or to shove ur views down the throats pf secular society by stealth. Instead seek to influence those in position through deeds and through your own acts. Remember that Jesus was offered dominion over the devil by man and he refused, remember that he rendered to Ceaser what was Ceaser's when the Romans were for orgies, hetrosexuality, homosexuality, competing faiths etc etc, remember all of that and then perhaps one will feel less indignant and self righteous when the homosexuality issue crops up again and some pastor takes it on himself to decide that the " Nation has crossed the line. "




Lockeliberal
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Process, pluralism, protection
Straits Times, 04 May 2009
ST link

By Janadas Devan, Review Editor

‘THE Aware Saga’ has come to an end. What lessons does the episode hold for civil society? There are undoubtedly many, but here is a preliminary set of what I believe are the chief lessons:

# Lesson No. 1: Ends and means

The group that captured Aware on March 28 presented themselves as exceedingly moral beings. The group’s inspirator extraordinaire Thio Su Mien - lawyer, self-styled ‘feminist mentor’ and, by the looks of it, the world’s foremost expert on homosexuality - described her mentees as just a group of women who wanted to contribute to society.

There is no reason not to accept at face value this characterisation. It is impossible to believe this group woke up one day and consciously decided to do ill by taking over Aware, as the caricature on the other side would have it. Which is precisely why one wonders about the methods they chose to employ.

The means used in pursuit of any cause ought to be commensurate with the ends proposed. Bad means cannot encompass good ends. If your goals are fairness, justice and goodwill, you cannot achieve them by employing surreptitious, opaque and divisive means. The moral universe does have a balance sheet: You cannot be in the red on means and expect to be in the clear on ends

Dr Thio’s team got this equation wrong. Whatever one might have thought of their ends - and there are good people on both sides of that argument - it was difficult not to notice that their means did not measure up.

They did not declare openly who they were - until they were pressed to do so; they were not transparent about their policy aims - until their aims became apparent despite themselves; they did not answer questions - until it was too late to dispel doubts.

We know process matters in the law and politics. The Aware Saga has taught us it matters in civil society too, which tends to attract passionate, committed and often self-righteous people.

It is precisely because the self-righteous have so often in history cited their ends to justify whatever means they employed that democracies have learnt to insist on transparent and open processes.

# Lesson No. 2: Pluralism matters

There is nothing wrong with religious people involving themselves in secular groups - as individuals. The vast majority of Singaporeans are religious. We would have hardly anyone in politics, Government or civil society if we were to insist people checked in their religious beliefs before entering these secular realms.

But that does not mean that the spiritual and the secular, the church and the state, should be confused. It does not mean that the faithful of any religion can impose their views on others. And it most certainly does not mean that the religious should organise themselves in groups to pursue secular agendas. It is actually against the law in Singapore to have a Buddhist Action Party or a Christian Reform Party or a United Muslim Front.

There is no reason to doubt the assurances of Dr Thio’s group that they were not acting on behalf of any particular religion. The clear statement on Thursday by Dr John Chew, president of the National Council of Churches of Singapore, that the NCCS did not condone any church getting involved in Aware’s leadership tussle, set the record straight.

It was nevertheless daft - no more appropriate word comes to mind - for six people from the same church to have attempted this takeover at Aware. What were they thinking of?

That people wouldn’t learn they came from the same church? That people wouldn’t mind a secular organisation being taken over by a group clearly identified with a particular church in a particular denomination of a particular religion? And if they had won last Saturday’s vote of confidence, having depended on support solely from their co-religionists, that they could have continued credibly as leaders of a secular organisation?

If they had prevailed, Dr Thio’s group would have established, inadvertently perhaps, a new benchmark for social activism among the religiously-inspired. It’s hardly credible that Buddhists and Taoists - who together constitute close to half the population - or Roman Catholics, Muslims and Hindus, would have, in response, left the field uncontested to Protestants.

Everyone realised that would not be good for Singapore. Thus Dr Chew’s statement and the strong support it received from other religious leaders. It was good that they combined spontaneously to draw a firm line.

# Lesson No. 3: OB markers matter

As controversies go, The Aware Saga was minor. It did not permanently alter the body politic. Socially, it was the equivalent of a group of women, setting off on what they assumed would be a diverting walk, falling into a ditch. But it could have been worse - and that is precisely the point.

There were moments when things got uncomfortable. Ms Josie Lau, the erstwhile Aware president, received a death threat. The pastor of her church, Mr Derek Hong, spoke in terms that he later regretted. There was loose talk of Christians versus the rest.

The so-called ‘liberals’ in Aware have won. I am personally glad they did. But here is something that some ‘liberals’ may not be comfortable with: This episode proves why we need many ‘illiberal’ laws - including the Religious Harmony Act, Group Representation Constituencies, HDB racial quotas, etc.

Religious and racial harmony here are not givens. You have got to work at maintaining them. The Aware Saga shows we still have some work left to do.

[email protected]


Unlike many who jump in one end or the other, I had not been definitely certain. All I am subjectively certain is that this is not a united christian conspiracy. And if it is not a conspiracy, then it must be something that they have seen or felt. But then for each accusation that was given, there was a corresponding answer. In the end, the entire episode gave rise to pockets of certainty - yes, i am sure this is right, that is wrong and those are uncertain. Most seems very sure of their points. But to me, the overall picture is very hazy because I can't decide on that basic question: did they read it correctly or mis-interpret it.

I would have been much more comfortable if they had seen themselves as a highlighter of issues, and having highlighted the issues to all women, voluntarily announced the date for another Election for all women to decide. I am not saying this from the benefit of hindsight. Rather this was something i had been hoping that they will do from day 7? of the fiasco.

Instead as time went on, Ministers, bloggers came in, culmulating in pastors from two churches getting their say - one unwillingly and the other does not appear to be that unwillingly.

And the issues by that time had polarized into two highly contentious segments.

Once it reached that stage, one can kiss all consensual decisions goodbye.

Rationality gave way to irrationality.

Kakowi
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Kakowi...i don't think i questioned your integrity and if i did then i apologise...all i was searching from you was your own clear cut stand on this issue, no fudging, with your own justification to back it up...guess your above post is your position, correct me if i am mistaken...well to that i generally associate and adopt janadas devan's pov in reply

peace be with you:wink:
To LondonTrader and Porfiro:

You can read what you want from my posts.

If you feel i am wrong, then be happy that you are right.

If you feel i am biased, then be happy that you are impartial.

And if you feel i lacked integrity, then, need i say it? Be happy that you have integrity.

With that, I end my points.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
I would perfer playing my back masking tapes of stairway to heaven;bohemian rhapsody and hotel california instead...maybe even get gene simmons to make a guest entrance as well with pyro props :biggrin::p
" I wonder how stoic they would have been if some one had invaded their church and trashed their beliefs?
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
hissing frightfully like Catwoman according to "i am only man, please do not harass me" marshall lee also of COOS:biggrin::p
Looks like you found a genuine gripe - boorish and poor behaviour. I did like the bit about "dogs of war"

Could you think what else the old guard and their supporters are guilty of?
 

Lydia

Alfrescian
Loyal
Talking Point was boring because the participants only gave politically correct answers to questions put to them. They wanted to smoothen over every wrinkle so the show came across as plasticky and dull as dishwater.
Furious statements have been exchanged between the 2 camps and yet on TV it was as if they're all Best Friends Forever now. In today's Straits Times, Constance Singham revealed that she'd cried for 2 days after the power takeover and Janadas Devan argued that crooked means cannot be used to promote noble goals, among other things.
Does this mean that strong feelings and controversial things can be expressed in print and not on the small screen? Couldn't the new leaders speak some truth - get real as Diana would say? BTW, where was Balaji?
I am annoyed that I've been challenged by non Christians and called to defend an indefensible position in this past month. Did the new guard plan the leadership grab? (yes) Was that ethical? (legal yes, ethical no)
Let's face it. We Christians have been caught lying and acting in a nasty, menacing manner. The team under Josie tried to get the guards to keep the supporters of the other side out of Suntec hall. Then, to my disbelieving ears she said that her team would serve anyone regardless of race or religion. Locking people out is not a respectful way of dealing with the members of one's organisation. This is a day of shame for Christians in Singapore.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Locke,

I tell you Dr Thio is a damn bloody sneaky cunning self righteous patronising sly fox...if Dr Thio is a true representative of what christianity is all about then i spit on christianity and i say this as cradle catholic...just look at her own self serving statements which nail her down...

"Unfortunately, I cannot surface but shall be assisting in the background"

"I was disturbed by what Aware was doing and felt that I had to do my part, but I didn't want to front it. If not, we would not have the advantage"


. Sigh but darth thio.......its not a coup...but its networking.....is the statement which best sums up their attitude. I have found that those who are the most self righteous christians are often the loudest and most strident in their condemnation and at the same time the least forgiving and the least understanding




Locke
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Locke,

Personally I have no problem with such actions provided it is done openly, honestly, transparently with integrity, tolerance and respect for others values and beliefs...
Dear Kawoki

If I could rephrase that point in a differing matter. The public actions, letters written to the press, actions taken by the members seem to indicate an inordinate amount of agony, self flagellation, and lobbying over issues related to sex, sexuality and education of sexuality. Whilst the church may do many things, its strongest actions words and deeds seem in my view to be of a single track.




Locke
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Aiyah what do you expect from a half baked academic like eugene and papee friendly deb soon...as for the two old guard, i think they were probably still recovering from the dramarama the night before:wink:
Talking Point was boring because the participants only gave politically correct answers to questions put to them. They wanted to smoothen over every wrinkle so the show came across as plasticky and dull as dishwater.
Furious statements have been exchanged between the 2 camps and yet on TV it was as if they're all Best Friends Forever now. In today's Straits Times, Constance Singham revealed that she'd cried for 2 days after the power takeover and Janadas Devan argued that crooked means cannot be used to promote noble goals, among other things.
Does this mean that strong feelings and controversial things can be expressed in print and not on the small screen? Couldn't the new leaders speak some truth - get real as Diana would say? BTW, where was Balaji?
I am annoyed that I've been challenged by non Christians and called to defend an indefensible position in this past month. Did the new guard plan the leadership grab? (yes) Was that ethical? (legal yes, ethical no)
.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
EGMs, EOGMs and AGMs are never a forum for debates. The debates would have long concluded before such events. Its time for the tabled motion to be passed or rejected, prior to which clarifications are sought.

Usually one sees this kind of behaviour from those attending when they receive less than honest replies or replies that are rude, sarcastic or patronising from those presiding.

You see this kind of behaviour even during corporate AGMs when those presiding give ridiculous answers to reasonably intelligent people.

When someone takes you for an idiot, I am sure, your reply will be less than polite unless you are indeed an idiot. More so when emotions are running high.






It's a perfectly valid course of action though. I was hoping to see some serious debates on the opposing perspectives with regards to key issues during the EGM, and learn something along the way..
 

kakowi

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Kawoki

I stand corrected on that point and I was being unfair. The community work of COOS is wide spread and does cover the spectrum of social needs.

If I could rephrase that point in a differing matter. The public actions, letters written to the press, actions taken by the members seem to indicate an inordinate amount of agony, self flagellation, and lobbying over issues related to sex, sexuality and education of sexuality. Whilst the church may do many things, its strongest actions words and deeds seem in my view to be of a single track.

Locke


Dear Lockeliberal,

That is okay. It is also not my intention to correct anyone.

Cheers,
Kakowi
 

kakowi

Alfrescian
Loyal
Kakowi...i don't think i questioned your integrity and if i did then i apologise...all i was searching from you was your own clear cut stand on this issue, no fudging, with your own justification to back it up...guess your above post is your position, correct me if i am mistaken...well to that i generally associate and adopt janadas devan's pov in reply

peace be with you:wink:


Peace is always good :smile:

Cheers
 

scoopdreams

Alfrescian
Loyal
EGMs, EOGMs and AGMs are never a forum for debates. The debates would have long concluded before such events. Its time for the tabled motion to be passed or rejected, prior to which clarifications are sought.

This was not just any ordinary general meeting, and we should not apply the usual expectations for it.

However, you and londontrader are right.

londontrader said:
3. Now that all has been said and done, I think you will get the civil discourse that we all want.

"It's a perfectly valid course of action though. I was hoping to see some serious debates on the opposing perspectives with regards to key issues during the EGM,"

Not the time and place my friend
I expect better discourse to follow
I will be looking forward to seeing discussion on the raw issues this episode have brought up into society - if it ever happens. The victors on the throne, the vanquished all alone. Fiery passions have dissolved, but concerns yet resolved.

Usually one sees this kind of behaviour from those attending when they receive less than honest replies or replies that are rude, sarcastic or patronising from those presiding.
Usually one sees this kind of behaviour from those who holds opposite viewpoints, and who wants things their way, period. It has nothing to do with honest replies or anything you have just mentioned. Scroobal, the audience wanted blood that day, and they knew they had the backing and reasons to get it.

You see this kind of behaviour even during corporate AGMs when those presiding give ridiculous answers to reasonably intelligent people.

When someone takes you for an idiot, I am sure, your reply will be less than polite unless you are indeed an idiot. More so when emotions are running high.
Ah, then I must be a total fool indeed! Polite sarcasm is a lot more satisfying to me than outright rudeness. Of course, I'm sure you, being not an idiot, would disdain this train of thoughts, and very much prefer to engage in a contest of name-calling and unskillful jabs not uncommon in this forum.
 
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