SIA pilots urged by union to boycott dinner

[TracyTan866]

Dear Tracy

Above 62 , the chances of a pilot retaining his rating's disappear rather quickly and its usually down to health. One failed medical and its bye bye career but it makes for safer flying for the flying public.

Every airline pilot out there understands the risk and benefits and that continued flying after 62 or 63 diminishes considerably. A pilot at sixty two no matter how highly qualified is not A VERY attractive hire for any International Airline.

And the fact is if all the old farts F O faster it means more promotional prospects for younger pilots
-----------------------
Locke

If a pilot doesnt retain his rating or is medically unfit, he shd not be employed . so it doesnt apply to what we r discussing

what we are discusing here is that he is perfectly as good as he was when he was 61 yrs old, shd he take a pay cut just because he is 62?

 

[johnny333]

To my knowledge, this has already been occuring since the SARs crisis and the Ryan Goh saga. SQ pilots are leaving in droves, and who can blame them?

I have it on good authority that as a result of the mass exodus of pilots, SQ has been forced to ramp up the hiring of expat pilots (with much larger pay packages than locals) to make up the shortfall till the start of the financial crisis in 2009

This is what I expect of pilots who operate in the global labor market. With the global shortage of pilots they can simply leave SIA, if SIA is a lousy employer. Which they are

No need to bang heads with LKY, simply vote with their feet.

As for those who expect SIA to replace them with cheap PRC, Indian pilots, would you dare fly with SIA if that happens

 

[patrickv]

i will always remember SIA as the company who earns and stash millions of $ every year in their good years, not yet when suddenly when 1 year global travel is affected (SARS, 911, Lehman etc), they are always very fast to introduce paycut, lesser work week, remove incentive etc.

come on SIA as a company have so much $$ accumulated over the years while they are profitable. 1 bad year or 2 they can surely absorbed. why is there a need to slash overheads straightaway. "Ren Qin Wei" = 0.

pui.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Where is LKY when SIA need him? Surely he will have a thing or two to say about this.

SIA needs to be less strict with its playboy pilots. Union? All for show only.
When the union leaders are hauled before LKY, they will sorry here sorry there.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Tracy

Honestly it depends on the profession and it will , If a 62 year old surgeon at MOH who can no longer operate is it justifiable to pay the same rate as when he was younger ? Perhaps a teaching consultancy post but at a lower pay ?

The retirement age is at 62 for a reason, its for the safety of the flying public. The choice remains retire at 62 and work for less, or retire and do not work at all, but do not forget the faster the old boys retire , it also means more opportunities for junior pilots.

The dirty secret of airline pilots is that Seniority matters, Senior pilots get better routes, better pay better allowances etc etc as they progress. I mean yes they have been well paid well taken care of ,but I do not see a need to protect their privilages post a mandatory retirement age.



Locke

 

[Forvendet]

If a pilot doesnt retain his rating or is medically unfit, he shd not be employed . so it doesnt apply to what we r discussing

what we are discusing here is that he is perfectly as good as he was when he was 61 yrs old, shd he take a pay cut just because he is 62?

The best age range for a pilot is between 45 and 55, at top form with experience and requisite fitness. I don't believe that anyone after 55 can be totally medically fit for piloting with 300 or 400 lives at hand. Partially fit with partial pay is unacceptable. SIA should arrange other jobs for them, e.g. training, supervising, managing etc. They should accept lower pays too.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Spot on! These ministers are getting millions on top of their pension money.

When a pilot makes a major mistake, his life and that of passengers will be gone. When ministers make mistake, more pay increase and another minister will try to bull-shit his way through.

 

[eatshitndie]

The best age range for a pilot is between 45 and 55, at top form with experience and requisite fitness. I don't believe that anyone after 55 can be totally medically fit for piloting with 300 or 400 lives at hand. Partially fit with partial pay is unacceptable. SIA should arrange other jobs for them, e.g. training, supervising, managing etc. They should accept lower pays too.

they shouldn't be flying a large commercial airliner (with tons of passengers... tons i mean tons as they are getting fat) at all after 60, not even with lower pay. there should be a mandatory cut-off age by safety regulation. the u.s faa bumped the age limit from 60 to 65, which i think was lobbied heavily by the pilots union.

 

[GoldenDragon]

if anything the ex cabinet ministers shd get a pay cut after 65

You are being very kind. I opine they should not get a pay cut. They should just retire and allow the younger generation to lead. No one is indispensable.

Welcome home! Everyone was very worried about your absence, esp kukubird.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Tracy

Its about seniority and the money that comes with seniority at the end of the day. One can be medically fit, one can still pass all the check rides but be somewhat slower in reactions etc etc etc. At the end of the day there must be some pre determined limit for mandatory retirement for airline pilots, heck even Surgeons have a self imposed limit because they know for themselves when they are not as sharp.



Locke

 

[blackreplica]

they shouldn't be flying a large commercial airliner (with tons of passengers... tons i mean tons as they are getting fat) at all after 60, not even with lower pay. there should be a mandatory cut-off age by safety regulation. the u.s faa bumped the age limit from 60 to 65, which i think was lobbied heavily by the pilots union.

by your own admission. Such an age already exists. 65. If 65 year old pilots left, right and center were getting heart attacks mid-flights or getting into accidents, do you think even the lobbyists could have pushed through an increase in the mandatory pilot retirement age?

The fact of the matter is ICAO already reckons pilots age 62-65 are just as safe, and just as capable doing his job, the same job any pilot does regardless of whether he is 25, 35, 45,55, or 65.

 

[syed putra]

a very motely multi ethnic bunch, the SIA pilot's union.

 

[TracyTan866]

Dear Tracy

Honestly it depends on the profession and it will , If a 62 year old surgeon at MOH who can no longer operate is it justifiable to pay the same rate as when he was younger ? Perhaps a teaching consultancy post but at a lower pay ?

The retirement age is at 62 for a reason, its for the safety of the flying public. The choice remains retire at 62 and work for less, or retire and do not work at all, but do not forget the faster the old boys retire , it also means more opportunities for junior pilots.

The dirty secret of airline pilots is that Seniority matters, Senior pilots get better routes, better pay better allowances etc etc as they progress. I mean yes they have been well paid well taken care of ,but I do not see a need to protect their privilages post a mandatory retirement age.



Locke

You missed the point.

If IATA and ICAO say that a pilot can fly until 65, who is sia to say that he shd get a pay cut at 62? is a 62 yr old sia pilot as capable as a 61 yr old sia pilot? if he is, he shd get the same pay. if he is not, he shdnt be employed

 

[eatshitndie]

by your own admission. Such an age already exists. 65. If 65 year old pilots left, right and center were getting heart attacks mid-flights or getting into accidents, do you think even the lobbyists could have pushed through an increase in the mandatory pilot retirement age?

The fact of the matter is ICAO already reckons pilots age 62-65 are just as safe, and just as capable doing his job, the same job any pilot does regardless of whether he is 25, 35, 45,55, or 65.

it's a matter of time that pilot fitness or the lack of it will translate to disasters. already, faa reports have too many cases of pilot neglect, drunkenness, fatigue, heart attacks that have led to near disasters. the union is pushing the envelope as the economy sours, and the high workload, long durations and short intervals (for rest) are self-inflicted to gain overtime pay and other monetary rewards/bonuses. same is happening with the police, firemen, nurses and paramedics. many older ones are working longer hours and not necessarily effective hours. they want to maximize their payroll just before retirement so they can benefit from their pension payments which are normally about 80% of their last paycheck. the u.s pension system has broken, and it's a matter of time that air safety folds under stress with the faa and gov favoring the union's false claims.

 

[eatshitndie]

it's not whether, nor what if, nor will it, but when...

june 19, 2009 - pilot died of heart attack in mid flight

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/19/Pilot-died-of-heart-attack-in-mid-flight/UPI-25531245432466/

april 13, 2009 - pilot suffers mid-air heart attack

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=101941

oct 15, 2010 - pilot dies of hear attack mid-air

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-heart-attack-mid-air/articleshow/6750940.cms

april 13, 2009 - passenger lands plane after pilot dies of heart attack mid-flight

http://news.injuryboard.com/passeng...f-heart-attack-midflight.aspx?googleid=260926

feb 26, 2008 - pilot collapses of a suspected heart attack in cockpit

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...cted-heart-attack-in-cockpit-115875-20331985/

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Tracy

Not IATA or ICAO but FAA, there is no internationally mandated retirement age. SQ its 62, in the US its 65.



Locke

 

[TracyTan866]

Dear Tracy

Not IATA or ICAO but FAA, there is no internationally mandated retirement age. SQ its 62, in the US its 65.



Locke

FAA is US's Federal Aviation Authority. CAA is UK's Civil Aviation Authority. Read the below news:

"WASHINGTON — The government is considering raising the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots from 60 to 65, the Federal Aviation Administration said Wednesday.

The agency said the change is prompted by the United Nations organization that governs aviation, the International Civil Aviation Organization. ICAO will increase the international standard to 65 on November 23.

 

[Char_Azn]

Working for an airline is more than just about pay. Most local carrier would of course prefer for fly for their flag carrier than jump ship to another airline. They deserve credit for fighting for an improvement than simply jumping ship to another airline which they could do easily.

Locke> You seem to misunderstand the issue a little. Don't forget than re-employment becomes mandatory in 2012. Being retired at 62 as opposed to being employed at lower pay is not the scenario. Hence the need to negotiate the pay packages for pilots upon reaching 62 when they are offered re-employment. As it stands, SQ is saying "forget all the pay rises you worked so hard for, the last 30 years, we are cutting your salary back to starting Captain pay the day you turn 62". My question is does this sound fair to you? Bear in mind here a pilot's job simply does not change in any way, shape or form when you turn 62. Thus you are asking someone to do the exact same job, at a much lower pay simply because of his age. Before anyone should lambast, put yourselves in the shoes of the pilots and ask yourselves, if you were them, would you accept SIA's proposal?

If what this guy says is true

The deadlock is over the terms and conditions for working between the ages of 62 and 65, which is when pilots have to give up their wings, as required by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (Icao), the United Nations body which regulates the aviation industry.

Then it would mean SIA is basically rehiring guys who are no longer allowed to fly, translation, hiring pple who are no longer allowed by International body to do what they are suppose to do. It is therefore justifiable in this instance to be reducing the pay of this pple. I think it's Bullshit to reduce pay of someone just because they got older but if you are no longer able to do your job due to whatever reason, the a pay cut is not unreasonable

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Tracy

My apologies I got i wrong. Even the ICAO's advice is half cautionary. I,e yes one pilot can fly if he is below 65 but above 60 but please the co pliot better be below 60. I mean heck even they have a problem with an all 64 crew.

There is a problem with age. and yes ARPA has got two fights but they chose the wrong one because they wanted their fucking cake and eat it at the same time.

1. Choice one fight for raising of Manadatory retirement age to 65 per ICAO from 62 currently. Then we would not be having this discussion as all those old idiots would still be flying.

2. But they ARPA want early retirement but the benefits of the same pay. You can't have it both ways.



Locke




nternational Operations

For international operators, attention has been given to the Age 60 topic in the form of an ICAO rule change. The new provisions became applicable on November 23, 2006 and read as follows (ICAO Annex 1, Chapter 2, paragraph 2.1.10):

2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation — A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
This rule change has little direct impact upon private (Part 91) operations – crew members operating under Part 91, who are over the age of 60, may act as PIC of an aircraft on international flights.

It does, however, affect commercial operators, including Part 135 charter operators. Basically, the new rule states that, in commercial operations (for “remuneration or for hire”) where more than one pilot is required, one must be less than 60 years of age, and the other must be less than 65 years of age, with a medical issued within the preceding 6 months.

It should be noted that there are countries which do not adhere to the ICAO rules. Further, not all countries differentiate between commercial and private operations in the same way that the US or ICAO does. Therefore, all flightcrews operating internationally should always check the requirements for their destination country prior to their flight.

The following information was taken from ICAO’s web site.

Definitions
ICAO defines "scheduled air service" as "an air service open to use by the general public and operated according to a published timetable or with such a regular frequency that it constitutes an easily recognizable systematic series of flights" (source: "Manual on the Regulation of International Air Transport — Doc 9626").

"Air transport operation for remuneration or hire" is equivalent to "commercial air transport operation" that is defined by ICAO as "an aircraft operation involving the transport of passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or hire" (source: Annex 6 — Part I, International Commercial Air Transport — Aeroplanes).

The expression "remuneration or hire" means any kind of remuneration, whether monetary or other, which the operator receives from someone else for the act of transportation (source: "Policy and Guidance Material on the Economic Regulation of International Air Transport — Doc 9587", Part 1-7).

Application of Article 33 of the Chicago Convention
Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (often quoted as the "Chicago Convention") limits the international recognition of flight crew licences to those who are in full compliance with the Standards of Annex 1 (note that paragraph 2.1.10.1 is a Standard). As a result, up until November 23, 2006, even if an individual State authorized one crewmember to fly in commercial air transport operations when over the age of 65, that authorization could only be given for flights within that State's national airspace. This is because no State can force another State to accept its own deviation from an ICAO Standard. Now, with this rule change, the age limit is raised to 65 in the circumstances presented above. No ICAO member-State can refuse to allow a foreign commercial operator, in compliance with the SARP, from operating within their country.

Article 33 does not apply to the co-pilot as paragraph 2.1.10.2 is a Recommendation, not a Standard.

Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who are not meeting all international licensing Standards provided that an authorization is given by each State which airspace is used.

In practice, this means that if a pilot in command is under the age specified in paragraph 2.1.10.1 he cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating into any ICAO Contracting State. Further, once he has reached the specified age, he may still operate as PIC, subject to certain conditions:

his/her national Licensing Authority permits it; and,
operations are undertaken only in national airspace; unless,
another State has given specific authorization that such flights are permitted in its airspace.
When over 60, a six-monthly medical examination will be necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations). For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years.

Most of the States that have authorized their pilots to fly as pilot-in-command in commercial air transport operations after they reach the age specified in 2.1.10.1 also authorize pilots holding a license issued or validated by another States to fly in their own airspace under the same condition.

However, ICAO does not collect information on States authorizing pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 60 and cannot provide information on the subject. Pilots seeking such information must contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities.

ICAO Amendment 167 to Annex 1


FAA International Flight Information Manual


NBAA Management Guide,
Section 1.11

 

[TracyTan866]

FAA rules apply to US