Chitchat SAF captain claims trial over death of NSF in Bionix accident

[Focus]

Bro, do you have more photos of him?

SAF officer Ong Lin Jie was charged with causing full-time serviceman Liu Kai’s death by a rash act
He pleaded not guilty, as the court heard more details of what happened
https://www.todayonline.com/singapo...-causing-nsf-liu-kais-death-training-exercise

I just want to say that, if the accused is a NSF, the NSF will be jailed by the military court almost immediately, to cover up.
if the accused is a NSF, you think the case will still drag until today?

Ong Lin Jie is still yaya. I was from 42 SAR and we were using BX. The officer, Ong Lin Jie account is untrue and i wonder why NO SAF ARMOUR OFFICER dared to stand trial to prove Ong's recklessness.

This is a photo taken during my time in 42SAR, i vouch for Mr Gibson Tay's statement that was our standard protocol.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singap...-stop-reverse-when-opposing-side-is-spotted-a

During a military exercise, a Bionix Infantry Fighting Vehicle will stop moving and immediately reverse when its vehicle commander spots a vehicle from the opposing side, a district court heard on Friday (March 19).

Mr Gibson Tay, who was present at the exercise during which full-time national serviceman (NSF), Corporal First Class (CFC) Liu Kai, 22, was killed on Nov 3, 2018, told the court that this was done to get out of the opposing side's sight.

Mr Tay was an NSF and the vehicle commander of a Bionix when another Bionix reversed and mounted a Land Rover that CFC Liu was driving at the time. CFC Liu had been ordered by the Land Rover's vehicle commander, Ong Lin Jie, now 30, to overtake the Bionix shortly before the tragedy occurred.

The younger soldier was pronounced dead at the scene at 10.35am that day.

Ong is represented by lawyer Teo Choo Kee, who argued that there was no regulation that states his client had to establish communication with the Bionix when overtaking it.

The tragedy occurred during a company exercise by the 42nd Battalion Singapore Armoured Regiment in November 2018.

 

[Scrooball (clone)]

He had allegedly failed to keep a safety distance of 30m between the Land Rover that he and Corporal First Class (CFC) Liu were in and a Bionix infantry fighting vehicle.

This fucking SAF stupid rule of keeping a safety distance of 30m. When i was in the army, i was amazed at how stupid some of those rules are. When driving, you are supposed to keep car lengths from the car in front of you based on your speed. If you are driving at 50km/hr, you need to keep FIVE car lengths distance from the car in front of you. What kind of fucking stupid rule is that?

 

[Loofydralb]

U don't know fuck shit about this, just keep quiet lah. This guy was an evaluator, which in the old days were called observers. Their job is to evaluate the performance of the unit. U cannot drive and evaluate/observe at the same time. Notes have to be taken, callsigns have to be noted etc. Therefore, there are always 2 people in the vehicle. for example, in Starlight ROC, I always drove my Company OC, when we followed the tanks going through the live firing course. Secondly, its a safety reason. U should never be alone by yourself in a training area where there are heavy vehicles all around. If u got sideswiped, or wiped out in a longang somewhere, no one will find your body for days. And thirdly, usually the driver is familiar with the area as he goes there all the time. An evaluator might not be and so, its just easier and faster to get there with a driver.

No wonder you're part of the retard platoon.
Stupid still cannot explain why after all that responsibility, he is responsible for the vehicle and how it is driven.
No respectable NSmen respects SAF officers anyway.

 

[Papsmearer]

No wonder you're part of the retard platoon.
Stupid still cannot explain why after all that responsibility, he is responsible for the vehicle and how it is driven.
No respectable NSmen respects SAF officers anyway.

When exposed to be the buffoon that u are, u resort to name calling like "retard" and saying no NSmen respects officers, etc. Well, I was there, in Ong's shoe many times. So many, that I cannot even remember. U were there ZERO times and claim that he could have driven the vehicle himself. U are like a virgin telling a hooker how to fuck. How stupid do you feel now with your retarded comment?

 

[batman1]

Train so hard for what ???
NS for Sinkees !
Jobs for Foreigners !

 

[Loofydralb]

When exposed to be the buffoon that u are, u resort to name calling like "retard" and saying no NSmen respects officers, etc.

It may be hard to accept for you losers who had to resort to signing on as regulars are generally accepted by the men as retards.

 

[Focus]

It may be hard to accept for you losers who had to resort to signing on as regulars are generally accepted by the men as retards.

No good man will sign on and retire as SAF regular. Except for the ones in Commandos and a few good ones, the rest are just parasites, especially Armour, where I was from. Our system rewards useless assholes who are just after cheap SAF beers, because they are there long-enough. In no way, that most are more committed than NSF.

Many good regulars got so disillusioned and left the service after their first contract.

Anyway during war, the doctrine is that NSmen go die first. That is fact.
Regulars hide behind.

 

[Focus]

Anyway 42SAR and 4SAB officers are famed for having mistresses. They always tell their wives they working hard.
Don't challenge me to name them. hahaha

 

[Papsmearer]

It may be hard to accept for you losers who had to resort to signing on as regulars are generally accepted by the men as retards.

u are exactly the type of assholes that we officers like to tekan. hope they abused your sorry excuse for dog shit during NS

 

[Papsmearer]

No good man will sign on and retire as SAF regular. Except for the ones in Commandos and a few good ones, the rest are just parasites, especially Armour, where I was from. Our system rewards useless assholes who are just after cheap SAF beers, because they are there long-enough. In no way, that most are more committed than NSF.

Many good regulars got so disillusioned and left the service after their first contract.

Anyway during war, the doctrine is that NSmen go die first. That is fact.
Regulars hide behind.

U come from AI, that's not really armour. Its more like a glorified battlefield taxi service. I was 40SAR and I can tell u, our NCOs and officers are regulars for many contracts. In my time, quite a few were trained by the Jews. Some of them might be a little crazy, but u want to go to war with them. U can ask around about them. They were every bit as professional as other AMX-13 operators like the French and Israelis. These guys can drop a 75mm round into a mail box at 1000m, 9 times out of 10, and without a ballistic computer or laser rangefinder. They are not useless assholes. Armour is so small, u just cannot have parasites. Any jiakliobee is quickly identified and privately told to buck up. Its the only unit where an NCO can fuck an Officer in the name of improvement. The good regulars who are disillusioned and left was when they started importing lots of scholar officers into the units and fast tracking them. So, if u are a farmer, no matter how good, u will hanta kaki. For Amour regular NCOs, those officers keep out of their way.

 

[Loofydralb]

u are exactly the type of assholes that we officers like to tekan. hope they abused your sorry excuse for dog shit during NS

in your dreams will I ever be tekaned during NS. In fact I tekaned my officers and commanders with endless myriad of excuses, specialist reports, legal knowledge and rights all on the borderline of being mutinous and there is nothing those dumb officers could do.
If we could run rings round these clueless officers, imagine what the enemy will do to the whole platoon.
It just makes my day when I see an ex officer driving taxi or grab or security guard or hawkers.

 

[birdie69]

This kind of murderer lanjiaobin hide what?

If he got a good academic GPA result, this district judge might pardon him or sentence him lightly

 

[Focus]

U come from AI, that's not really armour. Its more like a glorified battlefield taxi service. I was 40SAR and I can tell u, our NCOs and officers are regulars for many contracts. In my time, quite a few were trained by the Jews. Some of them might be a little crazy, but u want to go to war with them. U can ask around about them. They were every bit as professional as other AMX-13 operators like the French and Israelis. These guys can drop a 75mm round into a mail box at 1000m, 9 times out of 10, and without a ballistic computer or laser rangefinder. They are not useless assholes. Armour is so small, u just cannot have parasites. Any jiakliobee is quickly identified and privately told to buck up. Its the only unit where an NCO can fuck an Officer in the name of improvement. The good regulars who are disillusioned and left was when they started importing lots of scholar officers into the units and fast tracking them. So, if u are a farmer, no matter how good, u will hanta kaki. For Amour regular NCOs, those officers keep out of their way.

I think the problem here is generation gap.

You come from another era. I know an officer who retired from your era, when I was NS. He was a good man, too bad he didn't play politics, so he retired as a Major. If you are still living in the illusion that Armour officers were committed loyal soldiers, i beg to differ. You should look at other military formation like Signal, Commandos, Guards and even some SIR units.

Let me clarify the following:

• You called me AI, which is wrong. AI are not BX operators (i refer to my photo). BX operators are specs and cpl. I was just being polite, I don't want to address myself as a spec. I don't talk about ranks.
• I am aware that earlier Armour Officers were israeli-trained, many went to selarang camp. I can even tell you that we bought old tanks from middle-east war, re-con, to be used locally in our earlier days. Stories like these were passed down, not by regulars but NSF specs. Regulars during the BX era were to ashamed of themselves to compare with the early armour officers. By my time, it was just wayang, lots of cock-ups and NSFs bears the brunt. hahaha even my L-coy OC purposely wiped his face with grease with 4SAB brigade officers passes by our vehicle sheds.
• By my time, amour operators don't know how M113 or BX works. They are posted to armour because they are pilot-rejects or unable to go to Artillery. By my NS time, it was worse, most of them don't know how a tank work. It is like having architect-without-driver-licence designing multistorey carpark. If you ask officer to handle a BX or Bronco, they are more likely to turn turtle.
• Arti officers are several notches above Armour. I saw their professionalism during exercises. Earlier, i mentioned that our military doctrine is to let NSmen die first while regulars hide behind. In Armour it was worse, Arti officers training with us were frequently shocked by the brainlessness of Armour officers. Armour stops for no one, swift and decisive, because we don't use brains. Our attrition rate was always high, either AI put to die first to lure enemies, or bomb bomb a place then move-in and enemy happily wiped us out with arti because we pre-empt them about our arrivals. These were the LTCs and COLs guiding armour.
• Then I believe you know the special reason why Gedong and Kranji are our main camps for armour. But combined exercise on landing ships proved that we are not able to live up to expectations.

I think it is really about generation gap. The armour today which Ong was in, is not the same as the selarang camp days. Armour is a dumping ground, any regular posted to armour is condemned, even if he is a local-merit scholar.

Today I am so angry about Ong because of his dishonesty. It is very typical of Armour officers who retired in Sports Singapore and SMRT, that's why these two organisations are so cocked up. During my 42SAR days, the RSM Ang tehkor lost his carbine during exercise and all of us mobilized for two days to sweep the training area to find back for him. He was never punished, the rifle was found in two pieces and Aw Shing Hock cheated ALB to get them condemned.

For the smallest problem, knock something during BX training or even MTL, the NSF get charged and went DB. Today no self-respecting SAF armour officer dared to tell the court that Ong was not following protocol.

Fuck you SAF. You cannot fight, yet don't even have integrity. Want to bet? i suspect Gibson Tay is not a regular or officer, that's why he dared to fight for the deceased's justice.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Anyway 42SAR and 4SAB officers are famed for having mistresses. They always tell their wives they working hard.
Don't challenge me to name them. hahaha

It over decades since I orded. After so many years 42sar still no improvement. I 46, my company combat team ensure 42 failed their ATEC at kanchanaburi, I know as a fact that cohort was caught cheating in range during ord shoot. 80% marksman which is not normal. CO was a scholar, around 30yo LTC. In the field beh kan, range also dunno how to cheat. Maybe it 42 occicers corp sibeh CMI that result in your view all occicer are useless.

Simi is BX operator? I never heard of it. I think my reservist battalion was the first battalion to go through the BX conversion course. Total 22 days whereas u guys trained at least 5-6 months before reach combat team level. Did saf change doctrine? I tot the spare VC manning the mg or the sect comd should guide when reversing. He will have a better view than the VC whose view could be block by the turret hatch cover, especially if the VC is a runt.

 

[Focus]

It over decades since I orded. After so many years 42sar still no improvement. I 46, my company combat team ensure 42 failed their ATEC at kanchanaburi, I know as a fact that cohort was caught cheating in range during ord shoot. 80% marksman which is not normal. CO was a scholar, around 30yo LTC. In the field beh kan, range also dunno how to cheat. Maybe it 42 occicers corp sibeh CMI that result in your view all occicer are useless.

Simi is BX operator? I never heard of it. I think my reservist battalion was the first battalion to go through the BX conversion course. Total 22 days whereas u guys trained at least 5-6 months before reach combat team level. Did saf change doctrine? I tot the spare VC manning the mg or the sect comd should guide when reversing. He will have a better view than the VC whose view could be block by the turret hatch cover, especially if the VC is a runt.

I think you should be enlisted in mid-90s. I was enlisted after you.
No such thing as best Amour Unit, during LRI


BX operator was a term used in our company line, refering to VC or driver of BX. A few years later in ICT, some converted to be Bronco drivers, we called them Bronco Operators



No such things as what papsmear's claim of NCOs scolding armour officers when they do wrong. You see, armour officer cadets are treated differently from specs in armour training centre to get converted. The officers are treated gently by the Warrant officers and condemned officers like playing in an outdoor theme park. I am also sure nobody aspired to be an armour officer as their "first choice". When I was enlisted, Armour Units, it is the specs and men who know the vehicles. Armour PCs and OCs are just "strategists" who typically cock up like Ong Lin Jie because a lack of field experience. It is like they are not groomed to be basketball coaches but you know, basketball coaches can't play basketball well in real matches.


When a M113 crew, BX Operator, Bronco operator or even MTL drivers get into small accidents, just BD, no mercy. Having incidents is part & parcel of training right? but just see how many got charged and some even end up in BD. In the same relentless pursuit of safety, Ong Lin Jie was not following safety protocols. unremorseful and the whole SAF armour corp officers dare not stand trial like a NSF Gibson Tay to point out Ong Lin Jie's wrongdoings, it tells you a lot about the integrity and working culture of this formation.

In the 90s and 2000s, promotion was given because of relationship, many left in disappointment. Useless 42SAR people like HQ Nicholas Tan has SAF relative and swiftly rose up the rank and get posted out of to enjoy cosy positions. His CO Lai Ching Kwang was a back stabber in workplace. If anything gone wrong, he just asked his PC and OCs to charge the NSF, he didn't want to dirty his hands. He had mistress outside his marriage, even after he retired from SAF. Life was so good for Armour officers.

Armour eventually developed into a dumping ground, by the time i finished my ICT. Platoon Sergeants and specs like us were running the show. PCs don't know anything about vehicles and just focused on play wargames. They don't learn to handle tanks in the same way like what papsmear described about pioneer tank officers. To every regular Amour officer, career progression means getting posted to MINDEF or AHQ planning branch, those on the group are not proud of their postings. Many took up golfs in the midst of their "busy" work schedule to network. haha because you only get posted to trashy GLCs like SMRTs if you retire within armour formation.

 

[Papsmearer]

I think the problem here is generation gap.

You come from another era. I know an officer who retired from your era, when I was NS. He was a good man, too bad he didn't play politics, so he retired as a Major. If you are still living in the illusion that Armour officers were committed loyal soldiers, i beg to differ. You should look at other military formation like Signal, Commandos, Guards and even some SIR units.

Let me clarify the following:

• You called me AI, which is wrong. AI are not BX operators (i refer to my photo). BX operators are specs and cpl. I was just being polite, I don't want to address myself as a spec. I don't talk about ranks.
• I am aware that earlier Armour Officers were israeli-trained, many went to selarang camp. I can even tell you that we bought old tanks from middle-east war, re-con, to be used locally in our earlier days. Stories like these were passed down, not by regulars but NSF specs. Regulars during the BX era were to ashamed of themselves to compare with the early armour officers. By my time, it was just wayang, lots of cock-ups and NSFs bears the brunt. hahaha even my L-coy OC purposely wiped his face with grease with 4SAB brigade officers passes by our vehicle sheds.
• By my time, amour operators don't know how M113 or BX works. They are posted to armour because they are pilot-rejects or unable to go to Artillery. By my NS time, it was worse, most of them don't know how a tank work. It is like having architect-without-driver-licence designing multistorey carpark. If you ask officer to handle a BX or Bronco, they are more likely to turn turtle.
• Arti officers are several notches above Armour. I saw their professionalism during exercises. Earlier, i mentioned that our military doctrine is to let NSmen die first while regulars hide behind. In Armour it was worse, Arti officers training with us were frequently shocked by the brainlessness of Armour officers. Armour stops for no one, swift and decisive, because we don't use brains. Our attrition rate was always high, either AI put to die first to lure enemies, or bomb bomb a place then move-in and enemy happily wiped us out with arti because we pre-empt them about our arrivals. These were the LTCs and COLs guiding armour.
• Then I believe you know the special reason why Gedong and Kranji are our main camps for armour. But combined exercise on landing ships proved that we are not able to live up to expectations.

I think it is really about generation gap. The armour today which Ong was in, is not the same as the selarang camp days. Armour is a dumping ground, any regular posted to armour is condemned, even if he is a local-merit scholar.

Today I am so angry about Ong because of his dishonesty. It is very typical of Armour officers who retired in Sports Singapore and SMRT, that's why these two organisations are so cocked up. During my 42SAR days, the RSM Ang tehkor lost his carbine during exercise and all of us mobilized for two days to sweep the training area to find back for him. He was never punished, the rifle was found in two pieces and Aw Shing Hock cheated ALB to get them condemned.

For the smallest problem, knock something during BX training or even MTL, the NSF get charged and went DB. Today no self-respecting SAF armour officer dared to tell the court that Ong was not following protocol.

Fuck you SAF. You cannot fight, yet don't even have integrity. Want to bet? i suspect Gibson Tay is not a regular or officer, that's why he dared to fight for the deceased's justice.

I think during you are confusing the 2. In my mind if you to go SOA TOCC, then you are 100% pure armour. I am taking about anything with a big cannon on it. eg. AMX-13, KP Centurion, Leo 2, AMX-10P. Then there is those that are assigned to armour infantry units that operate the M113, Bionix 1 and 2, Terrex, etc. I can only speak to the former as that is where I come from. But I am familiar with the latter, having driven some of their APCs, and of course interacting with the officers from there. For example in my time 46 SAR was the mixed recon battalion with AMX and M113. Those guys I know to be quite competent. Today, I don't know, and if you say they are fucked up, then I am not going to debate u on it. But u mention 42SAR, which is an AI unit. M113 and Bionix are NOT TANKS. If you refer to the current pure tank battalion, 80 SAR, I don't know many people there. But I can tell you, u can't operate that sophisticated and dangerous a piece of equipment, without getting your shit together. And not to mention, they also go to Germany for the second part of their course, where they receive much better training and supervision, not only from the SOA trainers, but also directly and indirectly from the German trainers. The level of technical knowledge required today to operate the Leo 2 would have precluded many of my AMX-13 crew from even smelling the tank. U can put incompetents and morons in to operate in a Bionix platoon in 42 SAR, but that cannot work in a Leo 2 platoon. The wash out rate will be too high. So, as far as I am concerned, a Armour unit like 80 SAR is still in my opinion a competent although untested unit, trained to NATO standards by the Germany army. A Bionix unit like 42 SAR, trained to the SAF standard or lack thereof, might be otherwise.

 

[sleaguepunter]

I am sorry you have such low opinion of current SAR competence. I was AI rifleman during NS and BX gunner during reservist. I may not like many of the officers that I served under during that 14 years but both the NS and reservist battalions were led by competent areaholes. On the last day of ICT, I saluted my platoon commander and told him it my honor to served under him who a fellow reservist. We men know for a fact he was scold many time by OC due our numerous refused to follow stupid orders. He led from the front, carry as much equipment as the men, many time carry the manpack himself as the sierra cannot keep up as he super fit. He won’t give orders he know the men cannot fulfill. The reservist OC is an arsehole but he is good in the field. My NS OC was Kenneth liow, a bit surprised he promoted to BG in less than 10 years. He another arsehole but I must admit he good in the field. He was the Opfor OC for 42 ATEC failures where we men see how scholar LTC ops plan so stupid. Dunno the CO or S3 or together both CMI.

 

[Focus]

He was the Opfor OC for 42 ATEC failures where we men see how scholar LTC ops plan so stupid.

42 had an X-file metal cabinet in their S1 branch. When I was orderly, the HQ COS told me that it was spooky to enter that room in S1 branch (next to S1 office).

It contain details of cover-ups and incident reports that are worded in a politically correct way.

 

[Focus]

Ong Lin Jie is such a shy army officer.
Be a man, face the world like a man. You are officer right?

 

[kkbutterfly]

i am a contractor.have a sibei guai lan dxo safety officer in the camp.he think he is above laws..and love shouting at many contractors for minor issue.
he loving setting out new rules, but own self never follow.any genuine idea on how to expose him to the right authority?