Serious Driver NSF's fault, not Bionix! Govt never to blame!

[mojito]

Cut and paste from another site.

This piece of shit COI is dripping with so much wayang that I want to throw up. Did the COI ask the question "In the 50 years of the SAF operating tracked AFV and tanks, how many of these reversal accidents have happened resulting in fatality?" The answer is less then 5. Maybe less then 2. This is the first one that I have personally heard of in literally decades. I have ordered reverse on my tank hundreds if not thousands of time. So has very other AFV and tank vehicle commander. Without any incidents at all. The SAF can save millions and millions of $ by NOT installing these cameras, as they are a waste of time and money. Notice the 2 people involved in the accident i.e. Liu Kai (From Transport Hub West) and his Land Rover commander a Regular Trainer Capt rank from the Active Unit Training Centre, are not from Armour Formation. This is the issue. In the old days before they centralized all the transport MT Lines into Hubs, this Land Rover and its driver would have been indented and supplied from 42 SAR, which would have its own MT Line. Being from an armour unit, the drivers are all aware of the power and danger of the AFVs and know the safety distance and how to be drive around these vehicles. Liu Kai obviously did not know this, and neither did his VC. Blind lead blind in an area filled with AFVs is a recipe for disaster. In the old days, when I drove the safety vehicle behind the tanks, I put it into reverse gear when I stopped, which is also when the tanks stopped, so I can get the hell out in a hurry if needed. I am sure other drivers did the same thing. This should have been the procedure to be implemented on all soft skin vehicles. When AFV stops, you stop, and put vehicle into reverse gear or at least neutral, so u can reverse in a hurry. Now as to why the cameras should not be installed. They should not be installed, as its just another piece of equipment that can fail in the field. The cameras will be exposed on the vehicle, and anything can happen to them. If they fail, and they will, a driver who was brought up training using predominantly the camera is going to be a lot less comfortable doing it the old fashion way. And that is another accident waiting to happen. The real question the COI should be asking is who was the genius that centralized the MT Lines into the hubs in the name of cost savings. And how can you re-introduce soft skin vehicles into the SARs for these sort of training purposes.

Depends maybe one of the cousins so happen to know a reliable supplier then why not spend a bit more to ensure our servicemen safety?

 

[Gillette]

Hen's response is comical. The real question is why in this day and age, cameras and sensors are not installed to provide a 360 degrees field of vision and situational awareness for the vehicle crew like other modern AFVs. It's also laughable to suggest not installing the cameras will help to save money. The Bionix would easily cost $1-2m a copy, excluding R&D costs and crew training. Having to rely on the VC calling out directions for the driver is outdated and puts the Bionix in a disadvantage in the battlefield.

 

[red amoeba]

They should have anti collision mechanism like the MRT trains.

 

[laksaboy]

Liu Kai the ah Tiong new citizen probably didn't know how to chow keng, think NS must be siao on all the time like in 中国人民解放军.

 

[ToaPehGong]

It's like launching a rocket and shouting for it to stop from the launch pad without communication equipment

 

[FuckOttoke]

Ho Ho Ho

is it because he's Chinese ?

 

[bic_cherry]

Cut and paste from another site.

This piece of **** COI is dripping with so much wayang that I want to throw up. Did the COI ask the question "In the 50 years of the SAF operating tracked AFV and tanks, how many of these reversal accidents have happened resulting in fatality?" The answer is less then 5. Maybe less then 2. This is the first one that I have personally heard of in literally decades. I have ordered reverse on my tank hundreds if not thousands of time. So has very other AFV and tank vehicle commander. Without any incidents at all. The SAF can save millions and millions of $ by NOT installing these cameras, as they are a waste of time and money. Notice the 2 people involved in the accident i.e. Liu Kai (From Transport Hub West) and his Land Rover commander a Regular Trainer Capt rank from the Active Unit Training Centre, are not from Armour Formation. This is the issue. In the old days before they centralized all the transport MT Lines into Hubs, this Land Rover and its driver would have been indented and supplied from 42 SAR, which would have its own MT Line. Being from an armour unit, the drivers are all aware of the power and danger of the AFVs and know the safety distance and how to be drive around these vehicles. Liu Kai obviously did not know this, and neither did his VC. Blind lead blind in an area filled with AFVs is a recipe for disaster. In the old days, when I drove the safety vehicle behind the tanks, I put it into reverse gear when I stopped, which is also when the tanks stopped, so I can get the hell out in a hurry if needed. I am sure other drivers did the same thing. This should have been the procedure to be implemented on all soft skin vehicles. When AFV stops, you stop, and put vehicle into reverse gear or at least neutral, so u can reverse in a hurry. Now as to why the cameras should not be installed. They should not be installed, as its just another piece of equipment that can fail in the field. The cameras will be exposed on the vehicle, and anything can happen to them. If they fail, and they will, a driver who was brought up training using predominantly the camera is going to be a lot less comfortable doing it the old fashion way. And that is another accident waiting to happen. The real question the COI should be asking is who was the genius that centralized the MT Lines into the hubs in the name of cost savings. And how can you re-introduce soft skin vehicles into the SARs for these sort of training purposes.

For VIP convenience, PAP has unlimited number of traffic policemen to close off any road they want. The a/m post suggests that the trainer was not even involved in the Bionix drill but probably just a passerby not involved in the particular bionix quick reverse enemy evasion drill and uninformed about the dangers along the road ahead. The conducting officer on site also neither cared about blocking off access behind the Bionix nor that the rear of the bionix was clear before giving the command for the Bionix under enemy fire drill to proceed.

Didn't the officer in charge of the bionix (contact with enemy fire) drill realize that a reversing bionix would be dangerous to any vehicles inadvertently following behind?

Why wasn't all road leading up to the Bionix closed off so that nobody would get into harms way.

The SAF exercise planners are the primary party at fault because they didn't mark out the exercise area hazards and did not ensure the safety of other road users. Those conducting the Bionix exercise were deficient in their duty of care to other road users and are responsible for the death because they did not close off the road whilst performing very dangerous bionix under fire, bionix reverse/ retreat high speed armoured vehicle driving in reverse gear activities.

So many policemen outriders on hand to close off the roads for VIP convenience and comfort, but zero regular SAF servicemen to close off the road behind the Bionix for safety reasons to prevent approaching vehicles like CPL Liu land Rover from getting squashed like pancake.

If only SAF cared more about NSF/NSmen lives...CPL Liu death was just another ticking time bomb waiting to explode. Deep seated cultural problems exists very much in SAF too.

https://youtu(dot)be/UAPzpqJwjRE

 

[winnipegjets]

The government cannot take over individual responsibility.

For example you're crossing the road when the green man is in your favor and some idiot jumps the lights and runs you down. You can't blame the government for issuing him with a driving license. The driver is personally responsible for failing to stop at a red light.

How have the individuals failed in this case? COI has not drawn any conclusion. What is obvious was the many instances of communications breakdown. Was it device failure? That has yet to be determined.

Your analogy is totally off-base, God Sam Leong.

 

[winnipegjets]

8 seconds was all it took to lead to a death in this incident. Pang's incident took 9 seconds. So short time to avoid fatal situations.

 

[zhihau]

NS is killing SG!

 

[bic_cherry]

The government cannot take over individual responsibility.

For example you're crossing the road when the green man is in your favor and some idiot jumps the lights and runs you down. You can't blame the government for issuing him with a driving license. The driver is personally responsible for failing to stop at a red light.

8 seconds was all it took to lead to a death in this incident. Pang's incident took 9 seconds. So short time to avoid fatal situations.

CPL Liu Kai death is totally preventable ticking time bomb, shows higher ups have zero safety consciousness.

E.g. if u have shooting range on, don't u lock the doors accessing the target area so as to avoid people accessing the area during shooting practice so nobody will inadvertently get shot?

Doesn't the safety officer have the entire range within view from his control room/position so that any time he spots / is informed about something amiss, (someone straying into the live firing area and at risk of getting shot etc), he can call for immediate ceasefire?

The road behind the Bionix, at least for 100m , or whatever distance that the Bionix was supposed to be in reverse gear should have been cleared or else the operators trained to reverse many vehicles in orderly and coordinated fashion. Obviously neither the area conducting officer was aware of the inherent dangers of his activity nor were the operators of involved vehicles properly trained.

The highest in echelons in SAF are to be blamed as every safety consideration was breached, from road clearence and closure to road closure confirmation by conducting and safety officer before any attack instruction is given. Failure of communication equipment was just the last straw. The accident was just a ticking time bomb waiting to explode/ a disaster waiting to happen.

@Leongsam, paternalistic Singapore government has almost total control over SAF top brass and many Ministers are also ex SAF generals. The lack of safety awareness by regular SAF servicemen and commanders is a harbinger of bad things to come for Singapore.

 

[Leongsam]

CPL Liu Kai death is totally preventable ticking time bomb, shows higher ups have zero safety consciousness.

E.g. if u have shooting range on, don't u lock the doors accessing the target area so as to avoid people accessing the area during shooting practice so nobody will inadvertently get shot?

Doesn't the safety officer have the entire range in view so that any time he spots something amiss, someone straying into the live firing area and at risk of getting shot etc, he can call for immediate ceasefire?

The road behind the Bionix, at least for 100m , or whatever distance that the Bionix was supposed to be in reverse gear should have been cleared or else the operators trained to reverse many vehicles in orderly and coordinated fashion. Obviously neither the area conducting officer was aware of the inherent dangers of his activity nor were the operators of involved vehicles properly trained.

The highest in echelons in SAF are to be blamed as every safety consideration was breached, from road clearence and closure to inspection by conducting officer before attack instruction is given. Failure of communication equipment was just the last straw. The accident was just a ticking time bomb waiting to explode/ a disaster waiting to happen.

The driver was told to STOP but he did not.

That's like being at the shooting range and the safety officer sees someone walking around the target area and he issues the command to drop weapons but one clown ignores the command and starts shooting.

Humans are not machines. Mistakes can happen. Let's move on.

 

[winnipegjets]

The driver was told to STOP but he did not.

That's like being at the shooting range and the safety officer sees someone walking around the target area and he issues the command to drop weapons but one clown ignores the command and starts shooting.

Humans are not machines. Mistakes can happen. Let's move on.

You are assuming that the driver heard the command which the COI had yet to conclude. Secondly, why is there no other fall back, like a button for the commander to override the driver?

 

[bic_cherry]

The driver was told to STOP but he did not.

That's like being at the shooting range and the safety officer sees someone walking around the target area and he issues the command to drop weapons but one clown ignores the command and starts shooting.

Humans are not machines. Mistakes can happen. Let's move on.

Telling the driver to stop was just the last straw that broke the camel's back. The road behind the Bionix should have been cleared and ensured so before and order to fire on the Bionix to induce bionix operators to execute emergency retreat by reverse mode driving was given.

The safety officer also did not ensure that the rear of the bionix was clear before the instruction to commence the exercise activity involving quickly reversing the Bionix a certain distance was given.

According to https://www.sammyboy.com/goto/post?id=2856982 CPL Liu was also not cogniscant about the danger in which he was in and neither was his trainer who was not involved in the 'Bionix under enemy attack's simulation test (they were probably just using the fated road as a route to somewhere else where the trainer was needed).

It is the duty of people conducting dangerous activities or work to cordon off the work/dangerous areas and warn others Not to endanger themselves/ others by entering the work/ danger zone. The Bionix test was a dangerous activity conducted in a reckless and irresponsible fashion without any due consideration for the safety of other road or track users.

The lack of safety awareness within SAF is thus a systematic issue based on what has been revealed inside this thread and state media. It is not the fault of just one person but an instance of deep seated cultural problems (borrowing the phrase from ex Chief of Defense Desmond Kuek).

 

[Leongsam]

You are assuming that the driver heard the command which the COI had yet to conclude. Secondly, why is there no other fall back, like a button for the commander to override the driver?

You really are being ridiculous. A kill switch that stops everything in its tracks? Life is not a computer game.

 

[Leongsam]

For VIP convenience, PAP has unlimited number of traffic policemen to close off any road they want. The a/m post suggests that the trainer was not even involved in the Bionix drill but probably just a passerby not involved in the particular bionix quick reverse enemy evasion drill and uninformed about the dangers along the road ahead. The conducting officer on site also neither cared about blocking off access behind the Bionix nor that the rear of the bionix was clear before giving the command for the Bionix under enemy fire drill to proceed.

Didn't the officer in charge of the bionix (contact with enemy fire) drill realize that a reversing bionix would be dangerous to any vehicles inadvertently following behind?

Why wasn't all road leading up to the Bionix closed off so that nobody would get into harms way.

The SAF exercise planners are the primary party at fault because they didn't mark out the exercise area hazards and did not ensure the safety of other road users. Those conducting the Bionix exercise were deficient in their duty of care to other road users and are responsible for the death because they did not close off the road whilst performing very dangerous bionix under fire, bionix reverse/ retreat high speed armoured vehicle driving in reverse gear activities.

So many policemen outriders on hand to close off the roads for VIP convenience and comfort, but zero regular SAF servicemen to close off the road behind the Bionix for safety reasons to prevent approaching vehicles like CPL Liu land Rover from getting squashed like pancake.

If only SAF cared more about NSF/NSmen lives...CPL Liu death was just another ticking time bomb waiting to explode. Deep seated cultural problems exists very much in SAF too.

https://youtu(dot)be/UAPzpqJwjRE

Training for war involves simulating the real thing so that lives are saved in times of battle.

It goes without saying that there is always a risk that something might go wrong. That's part and parcel of life. After all scores of people get killed or injured slipping in their own bathrooms.

There is no such thing as zero risk in any scenario. That's not how life works.

We need to get over it and move on while acknowledging that there is no way that we can control every aspect of our destinies and those of others.

Rather than try to achieve zero deaths a more realistic approach would be to set a max tolerable death rate. That's what the airline industry does and it works very well.

 

[winnipegjets]

Training for war involves simulating the real thing so that lives are saved in times of battle.

It goes without saying that there is always a risk that something might go wrong. That's part and parcel of life. After all scores of people get killed or injured slipping in their own bathrooms.

There is no such thing as zero risk in any scenario. That's not how life works.

We need to get over it and move on while acknowledging that there is no way that we can control every aspect of our destinies and those of others.

Rather than try to achieve zero deaths a more realistic approach would be to set a max tolerable death rate. That's what the airline industry does and it works very well.

It is one thing to die in war and pure incompetence when soldiers are killed during training or just being there.

 

[Leongsam]

It is one thing to die in war and pure incompetence when soldiers are killed during training or just being there.

Lot's of people are killed daily for "just being there" as we go about our daily lives. Think of innocent victims who were run down by cars while waiting at a bus stop or getting hit by falling debris as they were going about their business.

Stressful situations like military exercises increase the odds because participants are dealing with many aspects of the situation. It's just a reality.

We mourn, we try to make things better and we then move on but no matter what accidents will still happen.

 

[LordElrond]

I’ve said it many times and I’ll repeat it: SAF is NOT war ready so do not imagine you are. SAF needs to have the mindset of an instructor teaching primary school kids to cross the road because that’s exactly how lembik Sinkies are.

 

[bobby]

Hen should also say that it is a privliege to be able to drive a Bionix armoured vehicle....