Pope Francis: Evolution is real

[currypuff]

I refer you to the book "Finding God in Ancient China" by Chan Kei Thong. It is a fascinating research documenting that the ancient Chinese had the knowledge of a Supreme Being and Creator. This knowledge of the one true God was lost after the events at the Tower of Babel when God confused the languages of the people. The difference would be that the Bible preserved the truth about God while the Chinese forgot about God, corrupted or distorted the view of God. And if you think that the Christian view of God is Western Ang Moh, then you really need to correct the misconception!

http://www.amazon.com/Finding-God-Ancient-China-Worshiped/dp/0310292387

This is another typical type of book written by christians trying to attribute and twist to fix their beliefs and accounts of the bible.
What nonsense you said "the Chinese forgot about God, corrupted or distorted the view of God". Chan Kei Thong is distorting the taoist's view of the supreme being. The account superceded the western one in time. It would also wrong for christian to say taoism copied the origin from the west. When the account don't fix your bible, you called it corruption and distortion.

You need to explain why your faith is not a ang moh one.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Thanks for explaining what you mean by strawman argument, perhaps I would not have said so if the bible didn't present itself with so unbelievable stories. Calling them miracles and works of god doesn't provide any explanation either, unless one accepts them as so.

Cheers!

A strawman argument is a tactic employed by many people where they make up an argument that does not correctly represent the position of the opponent and then proceed to demolish the arguemnt and claim that their opponent's view has been discredited. This you have done more than once here.

In all debates we are looking to persuade a reasonable man on the street. That's the standard. If you aren't convinced by what I said, it may well have nothing to do with me, but could well be that you are refusing to be convinced regardless of what I say. And I think you have pretty much showed that here. Contrary to what you claimed for yourself I am not convinced that you are seeking the truth using logic and reason. Why? Because you dismiss the Bible as mere folklore and fiction story, just like that. Since you have already decided that you would not take the Bible seriously, regardless of anything I have said, we would just end up jumping from one issue to another. And you will give troll answers to serious questions, as you already did so earlier. Can I just ask you if you really are serious about discussing the Bible? Are you willing to be open minded about the Bible?

 

[Agoraphobic]

If the Bible is so great, why then haven't all the Jews converted to Christianity, and are still waiting for the Messiah?

I do not claim to be an atheist, but if people here call me one, I am not against it either - I just am not convinced that the stories in the Bible are true. Starting with the story of Jesus, you believe in the virgin birth? You believe in his miracles? You believe in his resurrection? There is no evidence that he existed (in the way he was depicted). And the only physical evidence of him - the Shroud of Turin, was a fake, the material being woven in the 11th or 12th century. Heaven and Hell exists in our minds because we do not know what happens to us (our souls?) after we cease to live, and it provides a possibility. But we do not know for sure. Most of us just hope for something comforting, and believing in Jesus provides that avenue, that's all.

Cheers!

Everyone taking the bible seriously will be a winner. I am not a science student, but using the bible as the inerrant guide and highest authority I am able to successful discredit evilution claims made by atheists like Agoraphoic. The bible is really a great bible, it made me a winner in this life and after life.

Atheism is wrong. The path to atheism is easy but the path to Jesus is hard. Bro Agoraphoic, many christians probably have told you will still go the heaven. They are nice being good christians. You are an old timer here, I care for you. I have to tell you words that don't please you in order to save you. You will go to hell unless you accept Jesus. This is the hard truth. Think for yourself, family and loved ones. Wake up!

 

[Frodo]

This is another typical type of book written by christians trying to attribute and twist to fix their beliefs and accounts of the bible.
What nonsense you said "the Chinese forgot about God, corrupted or distorted the view of God". Chan Kei Thong is distorting the taoist's view of the supreme being. The account superceded the western one in time. It would also wrong for christian to say taoism copied the origin from the west. When the account don't fix your bible, you called it corruption and distortion.

You need to explain why your faith is not a ang moh one.

Easy, look at the map and tell me where Israel is located.

 

[Frodo]

Thanks for explaining what you mean by strawman argument, perhaps I would not have said so if the bible didn't present itself with so unbelievable stories. Calling them miracles and works of god doesn't provide any explanation either, unless one accepts them as so.

Cheers!

Thus that's the difference between a naturalist and a supernaturalist worldview. Both are held to by faith. As a naturalist you would not accept miracles because that does not fit your worldview. So if someone claims a miracle you will dismiss it outright and attribute it to delusion, illusion, or some other natural explanation that is yet to be discovered, because an atheist is 100% biased. The same for a supernaturalist worldview, we do not reject the existence of miracles even though we know that there are also fake miracle workers (unfortunately) but such do not negate miracles per se. And you are right, a miracle is an intervention by God, there is nothing to explain when we call it an "act of God". You can explain natural events or occurences, but that is again appealing to God's established laws of nature. So in a theistic worldview, being able to explain things naturally does not thereby means God is not in the picture at all.

 

[Frodo]

If the Bible is so great, why then haven't all the Jews converted to Christianity, and are still waiting for the Messiah?

I do not claim to be an atheist, but if people here call me one, I am not against it either - I just am not convinced that the stories in the Bible are true. Starting with the story of Jesus, you believe in the virgin birth? You believe in his miracles? You believe in his resurrection? There is no evidence that he existed (in the way he was depicted). And the only physical evidence of him - the Shroud of Turin, was a fake, the material being woven in the 11th or 12th century. Heaven and Hell exists in our minds because we do not know what happens to us (our souls?) after we cease to live, and it provides a possibility. But we do not know for sure. Most of us just hope for something comforting, and believing in Jesus provides that avenue, that's all.

Cheers!

Just because the Bible is great, it means all the Jews must believe? Why? But having said that, there are a large number of Jews who believe in Jesus, and the population is growing. Does a growing population of believing Jews count, or would you insist that all Jews everywhere in this very moment must suddenly have a mind change and believe?

Again it is not because you are not convinced, but because as an atheist you cannot allow yourself the option that miracles are possible. As an atheist you have already decided right from the onset that miracles are not allowed, are impossible, because there is no supernatural and there is no God. No matter what you would refuse to be convinced. You will find another explanation, even if it does not make sense or is weak or is absurd.

 

[Agoraphobic]

If this person Jesus was the Messiah the Jews were looking for during the time of Caesar, he would have got the attention of the Jewish community in that part of the world where he lived. But he didn't. And he only came to be known about two or three hundred years after the date of his cruxifiction. Why? Because the holy books you guys call the gospels were only written much later after that date. They were stories of a person that would give strength and unity to peoples under Roman rule and cause an anti-establishment movement to work against the rulers. That person was a martyred character that took on a divine persona to fulfil the earlier scriptures and it did appeal to many. But not all, because it just wasn't true, otherwise the upper echelons of the Jewish community would have embraced it too.

Cheers!

Just because the Bible is great, it means all the Jews must believe? Why? But having said that, there are a large number of Jews who believe in Jesus, and the population is growing. Does a growing population of believing Jews count, or would you insist that all Jews everywhere in this very moment must suddenly have a mind change and believe?

Again it is not because you are not convinced, but because as an atheist you cannot allow yourself the option that miracles are possible. As an atheist you have already decided right from the onset that miracles are not allowed, are impossible, because there is no supernatural and there is no God. No matter what you would refuse to be convinced. You will find another explanation, even if it does not make sense or is weak or is absurd.

 

[Frodo]

If this person Jesus was the Messiah the Jews were looking for during the time of Caesar, he would have got the attention of the Jewish community in that part of the world where he lived. But he didn't. And he only came to be known about two or three hundred years after the date of his cruxifiction. Why? Because the holy books you guys call the gospels were only written much later after that date. They were stories of a person that would give strength and unity to peoples under Roman rule and cause an anti-establishment movement to work against the rulers. That person was a martyred character that took on a divine persona to fulfil the earlier scriptures and it did appeal to many. But not all, because it just wasn't true, otherwise the upper echelons of the Jewish community would have embraced it too.

Cheers!

Again your information is wrong. There were Jews who believed in Jesus in the first century. You would have to ignore the facts of history to insist on your view. The first believers in Christ in the first century were Jews. That's a documented historical fact. I don't know how else to convince you, though I suspect you would want me to produce a physical evidence like a first century Jew in front of you, a troll requirement no doubt! http://www.brithadasha.org/index.php/messianic-judaism/historyofmessianicjudaism

 

[Agoraphobic]

Some Jews followed Christ. In the story, they were his apostles. And after his crixifiction, there were many others who became Christians, together with any gentiles. But there are Jews today who aren't Christians. They are descendants of Jews who remained followers of Judaism. Obviously there were Jews who weren't convinced by this Jesus dude who claimed to be king of the Jews! These Jews are still awaiting the Messiah I suppose, because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't the messiah.

Cheers!

Again your information is wrong. There were Jews who believed in Jesus in the first century. You would have to ignore the facts of history to insist on your view. The first believers in Christ in the first century were Jews. That's a documented historical fact. I don't know how else to convince you, though I suspect you would want me to produce a physical evidence like a first century Jew in front of you, a troll requirement no doubt! http://www.brithadasha.org/index.php/messianic-judaism/historyofmessianicjudaism

 

[Frodo]

Some Jews followed Christ. In the story, they were his apostles. And after his crixifiction, there were many others who became Christians, together with any gentiles. But there are Jews today who aren't Christians. They are descendants of Jews who remained followers of Judaism. Obviously there were Jews who weren't convinced by this Jesus dude who claimed to be king of the Jews! These Jews are still awaiting the Messiah I suppose, because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't the messiah.

Cheers!

How does Jews who do not accept Jesus as Messiah negate the truth of Christianity? Something is true regardless of how people respond to truth, don't you agree? Being Jewish is one's ethnic group, it doesn't mean that being Jewish means you must be a believer, anymore than being Chinese means you must be a Taoist. So Jesus is either the Messiah or He is not. That does not change with people's acceptance or rejection of Him. Jesus spoke that many will reject Him. Your objection holds water only if the Bible teaches that all Jews will simply believe in Jesus just because He walked among them. But had you read the Gospels you would know that the Jewish leaders were often against Him. Anyway Here's a second bonus for you, another book

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/jewbelje.pdf

 

[Agoraphobic]

Christianity, like all other religions, is accepted by some, rejected by others. And there will always be books on both sides. To me, I am unable to believe that the following happened as described by the bible - the virgin birth, the miracles he performed (eg. feeding the fish to thousands, bringing that dead guy back to life), his resurrection. I do not doubt that the stories are great and inspirational. You, and others can choose to believe because you guys have what is called faith, but don't expect others to think the same way. We can go on and on and it will not end as it has been for eons. Thanks for the book, but it is only another book.

Cheers!

How does Jews who do not accept Jesus as Messiah negate the truth of Christianity? Something is true regardless of how people respond to truth, don't you agree? Being Jewish is one's ethnic group, it doesn't mean that being Jewish means you must be a believer, anymore than being Chinese means you must be a Taoist. So Jesus is either the Messiah or He is not. That does not change with people's acceptance or rejection of Him. Jesus spoke that many will reject Him. Your objection holds water only if the Bible teaches that all Jews will simply believe in Jesus just because He walked among them. But had you read the Gospels you would know that the Jewish leaders were often against Him. Anyway Here's a second bonus for you, another book

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/jewbelje.pdf

 

[Frodo]

Christianity, like all other religions, is accepted by some, rejected by others. And there will always be books on both sides. To me, I am unable to believe that the following happened as described by the bible - the virgin birth, the miracles he performed (eg. feeding the fish to thousands, bringing that dead guy back to life), his resurrection. I do not doubt that the stories are great and inspirational. You, and others can choose to believe because you guys have what is called faith, but don't expect others to think the same way. We can go on and on and it will not end as it has been for eons. Thanks for the book, but it is only another book.

Cheers!

As I said earlier, it's not that you are unable to believe the Bible but that you choose not to, or refuse to believe. That is because you have chosen to place your faith in atheism which says there is no God and no supernatural, nature is all there is and matter is all there is. Once you have adopted atheism, then you have to reject theism and all that it implies. It's not that you cannot believe, but that you will not believe. It's a choice thing.

 

[Agoraphobic]

How am I to believe a woman can become pregnant without sexual intercourse with a man? Nowadays, it is possible with artificial insemination. The bible did not mention that Mary underwent the procedure. How can I believe that a man once dead, can return to life? The resurrection of Jesus is the core of Christian faith. This, I do not claim to have.

The other things, like the existence of god, and how god relates to mankind - these are debatable and subjective. Someone once said to me - god cannot be explained, god has to be felt. This statement, I can understand. But again, it is a choice of whether one wants to believe or not. And even if one believes, so what? Everlasting life? Happiness for mankind? These things, there is no definite answer. They may bring solace and comfort to some, but nothing else as far as we know. Our belief systems change with time. We used to belief in the existence of ghosts, elves, fairies, and in this part of the world, Pontianak. These days, these gremlins have been replaced by little green men (or greys) some say are from outer space. Again not proven, it is nevertheless debated. It is one's choice whether they exist or not.

Cheers!

As I said earlier, it's not that you are unable to believe the Bible but that you choose not to, or refuse to believe. That is because you have chosen to place your faith in atheism which says there is no God and no supernatural, nature is all there is and matter is all there is. Once you have adopted atheism, then you have to reject theism and all that it implies. It's not that you cannot believe, but that you will not believe. It's a choice thing.

 

[Frodo]

How am I to believe a woman can become pregnant without sexual intercourse with a man? Nowadays, it is possible with artificial insemination. The bible did not mention that Mary underwent the procedure. How can I believe that a man once dead, can return to life? The resurrection of Jesus is the core of Christian faith. This, I do not claim to have.

The other things, like the existence of god, and how god relates to mankind - these are debatable and subjective. Someone once said to me - god cannot be explained, god has to be felt. This statement, I can understand. But again, it is a choice of whether one wants to believe or not. And even if one believes, so what? Everlasting life? Happiness for mankind? These things, there is no definite answer. They may bring solace and comfort to some, but nothing else as far as we know. Our belief systems change with time. We used to belief in the existence of ghosts, elves, fairies, and in this part of the world, Pontianak. These days, these gremlins have been replaced by little green men (or greys) some say are from outer space. Again not proven, it is nevertheless debated. It is one's choice whether they exist or not.

Cheers!

You asked those questions as an atheist. Of course your answer would be to reject the Bible. So the question for the atheist is always "Does God exist?" This is the matter that needs to be settled. All other questions, even attempts by atheists to dabble in theology are IMO really a waste of time. Either God exists or He does not. His existence would be an objective truth, and is not dependent on how we respond to this question.

 

[Agoraphobic]

If God does exist, does god expect obedience from humans? Does god reward moral behaviour? Is god responsible for human destiny? Bro, I think so not. We're on our own, because if god does exist, why all the misery on Earth? Because Adam sinned? God punishes Adam's children because of Adam's fault? Maybe there was a god, but god left us.

I asked those questions as a human being. How else am I suppose to ask them? I am an atheist because the events in the bible do not make sense. Some of the stories may be accounts of events in history, but they are presented in a way to glorify the Jewish (or Abraham's) god.

Cheers!

You asked those questions as an atheist. Of course your answer would be to reject the Bible. So the question for the atheist is always "Does God exist?" This is the matter that needs to be settled. All other questions, even attempts by atheists to dabble in theology are IMO really a waste of time. Either God exists or He does not. His existence would be an objective truth, and is not dependent on how we respond to this question.

 

[Frodo]

If God does exist, does god expect obedience from humans? Does god reward moral behaviour? Is god responsible for human destiny? Bro, I think so not. We're on our own, because if god does exist, why all the misery on Earth? Because Adam sinned? God punishes Adam's children because of Adam's fault? Maybe there was a god, but god left us.

I asked those questions as a human being. How else am I suppose to ask them? I am an atheist because the events in the bible do not make sense. Some of the stories may be accounts of events in history, but they are presented in a way to glorify the Jewish (or Abraham's) god.

Cheers!

Do parents expect obedience from their children? In the same way God expects obedience from His creation.
Do parents reward children who are obedient? In the same way God rewards those who seek Him in faith.

The problem of evil does not entail the non-existence of God. If you think it does then you have failed to grasp the ill logic behind it. Anyway, you are correct to realise that bad things happened because of Adam's sin. But God has not abandoned us. If you bothered to read the Bible you would know that God covered the sin of Adam with clothing made from skin of an animal. God also promised a coming redeemer in Genesis 3. So far be it that God has abandoned man, even when man has been unfaithful.

Correction, you are not an atheist because the events in the Bible do not make sense, in a sense you are trying to put the blame on God or saying that the Bible is the cause of your atheism. That's not true. They do not make sense because you are an atheist first. You have turned things upside down. Whether the events in the Bible glorify God or not is besides the point. So what if God is glorified? Does that mean we reject the events?

 

[Agoraphobic]

Fine, Then we as the children, have grown up, and are on our own now.

The story as related in the bible just tells that story. God is the parent, humans are his (are we stuck with identifying god as a male being?) children, who have disobeyed (or rather, grown up) and not in his care anymore, and we have to fend for ourselves now. So those who choose to worship him can pray in church, and those who do not, can go about their lives. I think we can accept this.

Cheers!

Do parents expect obedience from their children? In the same way God expects obedience from His creation.
Do parents reward children who are obedient? In the same way God rewards those who seek Him in faith.

The problem of evil does not entail the non-existence of God. If you think it does then you have failed to grasp the ill logic behind it. Anyway, you are correct to realise that bad things happened because of Adam's sin. But God has not abandoned us. If you bothered to read the Bible you would know that God covered the sin of Adam with clothing made from skin of an animal. God also promised a coming redeemer in Genesis 3. So far be it that God has abandoned man, even when man has been unfaithful.

Correction, you are not an atheist because the events in the Bible do not make sense, in a sense you are trying to put the blame on God or saying that the Bible is the cause of your atheism. That's not true. They do not make sense because you are an atheist first. You have turned things upside down. Whether the events in the Bible glorify God or not is besides the point. So what if God is glorified? Does that mean we reject the events?

 

[Frodo]

Fine, Then we as the children, have grown up, and are on our own now.

The story as related in the bible just tells that story. God is the parent, humans are his (are we stuck with identifying god as a male being?) children, who have disobeyed (or rather, grown up) and not in his care anymore, and we have to fend for ourselves now. So those who choose to worship him can pray in church, and those who do not, can go about their lives. I think we can accept this.

Cheers!

Your reply is forgetting one important thing, you are living in God's world, so you are not independent of God still. On the other hand, children are on their own when they leave their parents home, get married and have kids and start their own family. So unless you can somehow leave God's world, you are still dependent upon God.

 

[Agoraphobic]

I don't live in god's world. I live on earth. I pay taxes to the government. I am subjected to the planet's germs and viruses, exposed to her vices. You live in god's world, maybe he can protect you from these things.

Cheers!

Your reply is forgetting one important thing, you are living in God's world, so you are not independent of God still. On the other hand, children are on their own when they leave their parents home, get married and have kids and start their own family. So unless you can somehow leave God's world, you are still dependent upon God.

 

[Frodo]

I don't live in god's world. I live on earth. I pay taxes to the government. I am subjected to the planet's germs and viruses, exposed to her vices. You live in god's world, maybe he can protect you from these things.

Cheers!

Oh you do, in fact. Unless you can show that there is no God who made this universe and world we live in?