MINDEF blames deceased soldier instead of accepting responsibility

[GoldenDragon]

Don't feud in this thread!!! Keep the feuds is their own threads

He is intoxicated, resulting from the return of the one and only. Forgive him.

 

[PTADER]

If I wrote the guidelines it would read... "sufficient smoke grenades to be thrown in order to provide cover and concealment".

When it came to caning it would be. "sufficient strokes so that the bastard will never dream of offending ever again".

Nothing is black and white in this world. It's all about making judgement calls. That's what separates humans from computers.

If objectivity is to be thrown out and subjectivity replaced and used as a basis for decisions, would someone deciding punishments based on the quality of the breakfast they had for the morning be acceptable to you?

 

[chuachinsengjason]

Jason Chua operates the fabrications about the pap Facebook page

Yes and I am here as a guest to see what is driving this huge traffic to Sammyboy.com

 

[winnipegjets]

There is no evidence of negligence whatsoever. I was a trainer in SAFTI and my job was to put the soldiers who were under my charge through their paces and if the manual called for smoke grenades then so be it. The more smoke the better because smoke is there to provide concealment.

The safety regulation stipulated only two smoke grenades to be used.

No sane person can expect the OIC to test 120 or more men for allergy to smoke before the commencement of the training session. It would be bloody ridiculous. It would take the best part 2 hours assuming it took a minute per soldier.

If the officers had any brain, he would know that asthmatic soldier would be affected by inhalation of foreign substance.
If he had followed the safety regulation, this soldier might have lived.

 

[winnipegjets]

You throw sufficient smoke grenades to provide the necessary concealment otherwise why bother in the first place.

The coroner said there was already sufficient smoke. So throwing additional smoke grenade was redundant.
When you go for radiation treatment, do you want your doctor to radiate you, with no limits, or do you want him to adhere to the safe level dose?

When it comes to defending the nation, the effectiveness and realism of training determines how well prepared soldiers will be in the event of actual battle. Building an effective fighting force takes precedence over the lives of one or two individuals who may have a medical condition.

One or two? There are more deaths than reported. Cover-up comes to mind.

If training isn't effective, far more will die when it comes to the real thing and far more parents will be grieving the loss of their children.

Myth: sinkapore can be defended.

If Singaporeans turn national service into a girl guides' weekend retreat out, we might as well do away with National Service and send the girls guides to war should the need arise.

NS is for brain-washing.

 

[PTADER]

This whole charade is getting really ridiculous. So there was a bit too much smoke and some asthmatic soldier who had tried to hide the severity of his condition kicked the bucket so what is the freakin' big deal????

People die for all sorts of reasons and life goes on and the world continues to revolve. Let's put this in perspective and realise that soldiers are at risk of dying no matter which army they serve. That's what soldiering is all about.

we should put this behind us and move on.

If everyone accepts your view that needless deaths through negligence during training are part and parcel of "what soldiering is all about", there won't be any soldiers who will be motivated or who would even want to die, let alone fight for the country, in a real war. Paradoxically then, that will not be what soldiering is about.

Whilst I have always held the view that NS is excellent and young men should do their best to get the most out of it, I will encourage these young men to adopt the "serve and fuck off" attitude if MINDEF continues with its completely fucked-up attitude of duplicity and PR spins towards this family or to any families who have lost their loved ones through the negligence of MINDEF.

Don't try to be too smart. Keng as much as you can. Get downgraded where possible. Do the least possible. Just leave with your limbs and lives intact and fuck the SAF. You owe that to your parents who raised you for 18 years.

 

[sleaguepunter]

That being the case, why not throw 20 smoke grenades?

Similarly, why not amend the law to allow inmates to be caned 100 strokes at one go?

Quite surely, a cap exists for a good reason.

The cap maybe SAF trying to cut costs lor knowing how cheapo SAF are.

Also cannot throw all in one go as training are conduct in detail level, must ration ammo so that all details can experience smoke environment. The guidelines of 2 smoke per detail also allow ammo sgt an easy way to know how much to draw from depot with a few spares smoke in case of bee attack. I dunno about private unit but my coy sop is every section has 2 smoke just for bee. I never heard of the so call 2 smoke cap, we even throw 3-4 smokes regularly during training. SM1 crew even worse, they draw a lot of smoke which they use a lot to simulate main gun firing(no 75mm blank) or throw smoke to cover advance or withdraw. Just imagine the amount of smoke being suck into the tank by the SM1 antique ventilation system. Never heard of SM1 crew die from smoke poisoning.

While I believe the whole thing just an unfortunate accident but I strongly believe the govt should stop cover up of all SAF accidents. The govt must acknowledge the NSF and NSmen contributions and honour them accordingly instead of hiding behind the laws or push blame when accident happen. As long while in uniform, SAF must be held responsible.

 

[winnipegjets]

The cap maybe SAF trying to cut costs lor knowing how cheapo SAF are.

Also cannot throw all in one go as training are conduct in detail level, must ration ammo so that all details can experience smoke environment. The guidelines of 2 smoke per detail also allow ammo sgt an easy way to know how much to draw from depot with a few spares smoke in case of bee attack.

MINDEF didn't use this line of defence lah ...instead it just says we can kill your son and there is nothing you can do about it because the law protects us from lawsuit.

 

[virus]

http://www.tremeritus.com/2016/03/08/disciplined-officer-promoted-to-major/

In a statement issued on Monday (7th Mar), the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) said that the platoon commander and the chief safety officer of the exercise that resulted in the death of full-time national serviceman (NSF) Dominique Sarron Lee were punished in accordance with military law in 2013.

Dominique’s platoon commander during the exercise was Captain Najib Hanuk Muhamad Jalal, while the safety officer was Captain Jeffery Chia Thye Siong.

According to a Facebook post by Commander of Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC) Brigadier General (BG) Chan Wing Kai, both the Captains were disciplined in 2013, even though they escaped criminal charges.

While the CI and COI (Committee of Inquiry) did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death, the two officers were summarily tried in 2013 for negligent performance of lawful order or duty, found guilty, and punished according to military law.

However, BG Chan did not elaborate on what the punishments were.

‘Punished’ officer promoted to Major

According to a reader who contacted TRE, it is revealed that one of the officers involved in the exercise which resulted in NSF Dominique’s death was promoted within a year or so of his “punishment”.

TRE verified the information from MINDEF’s official website and true enough, safety officer Captain Jeffery Chia Thye Siong was promoted to the rank of Major per this official army news publication, which was released on 14th July 2014.

From information available from official sources, here are the dates and chain of events.

Date of Dominique Lee’s death: 17 April 2012
Date the officers were punished: Year 2013
Date of Captain Chia’s Promotion: July 2014

TRE understands that in uniformed civil service, promotion within a year or so of a “punishment” for a major breach is practically unheard of. Normally one’s promotion would be halted or suspended for years before being re-considered.

Besides, promotion to a Major rank is not automatic and time-based, it has to be endorsed by those at the top and CSC.

Maybe “negligent performance of lawful order or duty” resulting in death is a minor breach, maybe Captain Major Jeffery Chia must have been one hell of an officer who has performed beyond excellence or maybe its just a coincidence that there is another Captain Chia in the SAF with the same name.

What do you think?

 

[winnipegjets]

http://www.tremeritus.com/2016/03/08/disciplined-officer-promoted-to-major/

In a statement issued on Monday (7th Mar), the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) said that the platoon commander and the chief safety officer of the exercise that resulted in the death of full-time national serviceman (NSF) Dominique Sarron Lee were punished in accordance with military law in 2013.

Dominique’s platoon commander during the exercise was Captain Najib Hanuk Muhamad Jalal, while the safety officer was Captain Jeffery Chia Thye Siong.

According to a Facebook post by Commander of Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC) Brigadier General (BG) Chan Wing Kai, both the Captains were disciplined in 2013, even though they escaped criminal charges.



However, BG Chan did not elaborate on what the punishments were.

‘Punished’ officer promoted to Major

According to a reader who contacted TRE, it is revealed that one of the officers involved in the exercise which resulted in NSF Dominique’s death was promoted within a year or so of his “punishment”.

TRE verified the information from MINDEF’s official website and true enough, safety officer Captain Jeffery Chia Thye Siong was promoted to the rank of Major per this official army news publication, which was released on 14th July 2014.

From information available from official sources, here are the dates and chain of events.

Date of Dominique Lee’s death: 17 April 2012
Date the officers were punished: Year 2013
Date of Captain Chia’s Promotion: July 2014

TRE understands that in uniformed civil service, promotion within a year or so of a “punishment” for a major breach is practically unheard of. Normally one’s promotion would be halted or suspended for years before being re-considered.

Besides, promotion to a Major rank is not automatic and time-based, it has to be endorsed by those at the top and CSC.

Maybe “negligent performance of lawful order or duty” resulting in death is a minor breach, maybe Captain Major Jeffery Chia must have been one hell of an officer who has performed beyond excellence or maybe its just a coincidence that there is another Captain Chia in the SAF with the same name.

What do you think?

A few top brass in MINDEF will need to be prosecuted for lying and cover-up. 8 months in jail, dismissal and loss of pension will be suitable punishment. The Defence minister should also resign.

 

[shittypore]

Tis Govt dont worth 2cents when comes to paying out damges for their wrong doings. 60k, if im the Family i wud openly tell MID to take it and shaft it up their arse. How much did the Court awarded Lhl on the Roys case?

 

[gsfosnis]

Here is the inside track. I do however acknowledge and accept that many in this forum will treat this as speculation, gossip and conjecture unless it is officially published in the Toa Payoh Brothel press and tangible evidence presented directly at their doorstep.

1. Mindef has been successfully sued before by the families of NS men and I am referring to cases where the families have not accepted settlement. Compensation have been increased substantially by the High Court as a result including one case where a soldier was found unconscious and now remains in a vegetative state but the circumstances leading to it remains a mystery to this day (no evidence of Mindef wrong-doing but it occurred while in their care). So not sure why the so called legal eagles here are offering views that seems misplaced at best.
2. No public servant is above the law and the state has prosecuted them for all sorts of matters including negligence over the years. Hendon Camp death, multiple deaths from Naval vessel collision with cargo ship, death of Guardsmen from premature release of rappelling etc have led to AG prosecuting them successfully and the cases were handled by the Police.
3. Mindef like the Government is at their usual best, omitting material fact and that half baked general is making matters worse. If they can call flood ponding, you know the rest.
4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.
5. Going to Chee is their biggest mistake. It also lends credibility to the original suspicion in some quarters that this was politically motivated and the family is mere pawns.
6. Someone sensible should point to a decent experienced lawyer whose has history in this and start re-negotiation and sue for high compensation thru the courts. The additional money can pay for the tomb if they prefer.
7. It should be noted that the Malay Captain has volunteered to waive the $6000 and will bear the legal charges himself. I am sure he knows that he made an error, underwent the trauma of a disciplinary process, records marked more or less for life yet found it in his heart to make the gesture. Short of he giving his life, i am not sure what else he can do.

It's great to have back scroobal.
Hope to see more of your writings in Sammyboy.com forum.

 

[winnipegjets]

Scroobal said
4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.

The Taiwanese President personally apologize for the death of a soldier. The defence minister resigned. A general was found guilty and imprisoned for 8 months. A few more officers were jailed. And the government compensated the family US$3 million.

So, what the family asked is totally reasonable ...an apology from the minister, punished those responsible (family asked for the two officers, I would ask for the scalp of at least one general).

From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them

Where you got your info from? The family's demands have been clear from day 1 - prosecute the culprits and apologize. What lah, you come back and suka suka humtum. Treat the deceased's family with respect.

 

[PTADER]

However, BG Chan did not elaborate on what the punishments were.

There is a good reason why this piece of shit did not reveal what the punishment for those two were and why MINDEF has remain very secretive about it. It would shatter the family and shock the public that MINDEF allowed these two assholes to get away with nothing more than a light tap on their wrists. Let me explain.

In trying to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities and duplicities, this Chan of a cunt stated this in his Facebook statement:

"The SAF has however taken administrative and disciplinary action against the two officers. While the CI and COI did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death, the two officers were summarily tried in 2013 for negligent performance of lawful order or duty, found guilty, and punished according to military law."​

Note the phrase "summarily tried". A "summary trial", contrary to media reports, is not a General Court Martial (GCM). Those two were not "court martialled". They were "summarily tried".

Those who have been charged or have charged soldiers in a "summary trial" will know that the accused will be marched into the JDO's (Junior Disciplinary Officer - Company Commander) or SDO's (Senior Disciplinary Officer - Battalion Commander or Commanding Officer for schools) office by their CSM/RSM. Next the JDO/SDO will read the charges out, ask the accused whether he wants to be tried by him (JDO/SDO) or have his case heard at the next higher level. If the accused elects to be heard by the JDO/SDO, he will then be asked whether he pleads guilty to the charges. The accused can elect not to plead guilty and have the case referred all the way up. But nobody in his right mind will do so as the punishment meted out during a summary trial is a whole lot lenient and there is a limit to the type and "severity" of punishment that can be meted out. The accused is then told of his punishment and marched out of the office by the CSM/RSM.

As these two clowns are Officers holding the ranks of Captain, their summary trial cannot be held before a JDO or SDO but can only be held before their Superior Commander (Brigade Commander or equivalent for schools). But the rest is similar, being marched into the personal office of their Superior Commander, having the charges read out, etc.

The type of punishment that can be meted out by their SC as spelt out in the SAF Act (Cap 295) are:

Powers of punishment of superior commander

70.—(1) A superior commander may upon conviction of an accused who is an officer below the rank of lieutenant-colonel or a warrant officer impose any one of the following punishments:

(a) forfeiture of seniority of rank and forfeiture of all or any part of his service for purposes of promotion;
(b) a fine not exceeding —​

(i) in the case of officers who are of the rank of captain or major, a sum of $1,000 ; and
(ii) in the case of officers below the rank of captain and of warrant officers, a sum of $500 ; or​

(c)reprimand.​

(2) In addition to or in lieu of any other punishment, the superior commander may order that the accused shall suffer any deduction from his ordinary pay authorised by this Act.

​

That's all these two clowns got as punishment for their negligence which resulted in the death of a soldier. Either a fine not exceeding $1,000 or a delayed promotion in future or a "reprimand" (verbal or written) and a salary deduction if deemed to be warranted by the SC. The "administrative action" would refer to their removal from the positions they held at that point of time to another position.

So there you have it. The "punishment" of these two for the needless death of a soldier and why MINDEF and that cunt of a Chan have been very secretive about it.

 

[winnipegjets]

There is a good reason why this piece of shit did not reveal what the punishment for those two were and why MINDEF has remain very secretive about it. It would shatter the family and shock the public that MINDEF allowed these two assholes to get away with nothing more than a light tap on their wrists. Let me explain.

In trying to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities and duplicities, this Chan of a cunt stated this in his Facebook statement:

"The SAF has however taken administrative and disciplinary action against the two officers. While the CI and COI did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death, the two officers were summarily tried in 2013 for negligent performance of lawful order or duty, found guilty, and punished according to military law."


Note the phrase "summarily tried". A "summary trial", contrary to media reports, is not a General Court Martial (GCM). Those two were not "court martialled". They were "summarily tried".

Those who have been charged or have charged soldiers in a "summary trial" will know that the accused will be marched into the JDO's (Junior Disciplinary Officer - Company Commander) or SDO's (Senior Disciplinary Officer - Battalion Commander) office by their CSM/RSM. Next the JDO/SDO will read the charges out, ask the accused whether he wants to be tried by him (JDO/SDO) or have his case heard at the next higher level. If the accused elects to be heard by the JDO/SDO, he will then be asked whether he pleads guilty to the charges. The accused can elect not to plead guilty and have the case referred all the way up. But nobody in his right mind will do so as the punishment meted out during a summary trial is a whole lot lenient and there is a limit to the type and "severity" of punishment that can be meted out. The accused is then told of his punishment and marched out of the office by the CSM/RSM.

As these two clowns are Officers holding the ranks of Captain, their summary trial cannot be held before a JDO or SDO but can only be held before their Superior Commander (their Brigade Commander). But the rest is similar, being marched into the personal office of their Brigade Commander, having the charges read out, etc.

The type of punishment that can be meted out by their SC as spelt out in the SAF Act (Cap 295) are:

Powers of punishment of superior commander

70.—(1) A superior commander may upon conviction of an accused who is an officer below the rank of lieutenant-colonel or a warrant officer impose any one of the following punishments:

(a) forfeiture of seniority of rank and forfeiture of all or any part of his service for purposes of promotion;
(b) a fine not exceeding —
(i) in the case of officers who are of the rank of captain or major, a sum of $1,000 ; and
(ii) in the case of officers below the rank of captain and of warrant officers, a sum of $500 ; or
(c)reprimand.

(2) In addition to or in lieu of any other punishment, the superior commander may order that the accused shall suffer any deduction from his ordinary pay authorised by this Act.


That's all these two clowns got as punishment for their negligence which resulted in the death of a soldier. Either a fine not exceeding $1,000 and/or a salary deduction and/or a delayed promotion in future and/or a "reprimand" (verbal or written). The "administrative action" would refer to their removal from the positions they held at that point of time to another position.

So there you have it. The "punishment" of these two for the needless death of a soldier and why MINDEF and that cunt of a Chan have been very secretive about it.

Last edited by PTADER; Today at 05:40 PM.

Bravo! Thanks for the info.

 

[PTADER]

Bravo! Thanks for the info.

Please amend the quote with the amended one to prevent confusion. Thanks.

 

[gsfosnis]

4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.
5. Going to Chee is their biggest mistake. It also lends credibility to the original suspicion in some quarters that this was politically motivated and the family is mere pawns.

If possible they want their son back. That's how the trauma of losing someone you love and treasure.
Maybe you are fortunate enough not to have experienced the emotional devastation of losing one of you own sons.
Therefore you may not be able to fully empathized with the plight of what the family is going through.

You should at least observe an iota of self-circumspection before penning forth your interpretation of the
situation surrounding the case involving the family. The family has already enough confusion and disappointment
at this juncture, your cynicism only paints you as an individual lacking empathy and compassion.

What political vantage do you think the family is hoping to realize from this, they are neither a member nor
a candidate of any political parties. It was the very establishment that the family and their son had once
so faithfully and obediently believed in that had failed them in carrying out their obligations as leaders
and legislators.

Would it lower the dignity of a Minister or even the President to apologize to the family for their loss that
was attributed to MINDEF's own safety negligence? Failing to do so only reinforce the impression and perception
that the establishment is inhumane and therefore should not be trusted.

Approaching Dr Chee was their last resort in the hope of getting justice for the beloved son, therefore their
motivation should not be suspiciously viewed as political but one of desperation.
It much too early to even speculate on how Dr Chee would fair in the handling of this matter.
Whether it is a mistake or blessing only time can tell.

 

[winnipegjets]

Please amend the quote with the amended one to prevent confusion. Thanks.

Your request has been met.

 

[shittypore]

How nice not be accountable and liable for your job position yet get paid by the millions. Nvr tot Garman wud take tis approach on NS man serving their Cuntry. I tink its a curse or bad karma to be born here.

 

[krafty]

i dun say army is the most cock up for no reason. i like to share a story how the real army work, in the past about 20 years ago, i had a sergeant colleague, he kanna weekend duty and started to drive the new minibus around the parade square out of boredom, despite not having driving licence. he accidentally stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake approaching the admin office. next thing he know, his minibus was in the admin office. so came the next morning, everybody was shocked and some find it amused that there is a minibus in the admin office.

so came the IO, my CO was a nice guy, he bought the IO some beer at the mess and the case was closed, my sergeant colleague just served some extras and no DB> i like to emphasize it's because of this taking care of men spirit, we respected our CO very much.

on the other hand, a life was lost, you can be sure that some of the army officers colleagues will cover some clues here and there for their own colleagues. that is how brothers in army work.