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Serious Kiev vs Moscow! Showdown! (2022)
- Thread starter JohnTan
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What is real is what is not?
Realities are defined by our 5 senses - see, hear, taste, smell & touch.
What is real is that Prigozhin had LONG condemned the RUS Def Ministry & its Generals on the conduct of war in UKR & lack of support to his brutal Wagner troops. PrezPutin while impressed & needed the Wagner storm troopers, he is NOT about to go Genghis Khan upon UKR, as he will lose support from Humankind & necessary funds for its war efforts thru revenues from trade, a factor that the old school RUS military Generals had to contend with & run the war effort thru lines of acceptable Rules of Engagement.
The decision to go march on Moscow came about when he was ordered to disband his shock troops & be absorbed into the regular RUS military. Mercenaries by nature are paid well for their irregular efforts & latitude in military discipline, but it seems that what was offered by the RUS State was NOT acceptable to 27,000 of them. What made matter worst was when the RUS military started slaughtering 2,000 of them outright for their refusal - the final straw that broke the camel's back - thus the decision to take that which is not given or promised.
The issue at hand is WHERE are these 27,000 mercenaries now, which mainstream media & think-tanks are not focussing on?
They had just raided the armory at Rostov, & are now WELL ARMED, not just with bullets, but with tanks & missiles, & is a battle unit. that tasted blood, on its own, that WILL destroy any resistance on its path.
They are a concern especially to RUS, as those mercenaries had shown fearless intent to march on Moscow come what may. Should that mercenary unit be sent to UKR, they may turn on instead upon the little trained & equipped RUS military there. They will not accept pathetic RUS State monetary offers, nor will they simply just kneel & be slaughtered again as happened recently.
Remember - no matter how ill disciplined an army is, leadership does not rely upon one single man alone. It is an organized hierarchical element of parts that made up the sum of whole.
Realities are defined by our 5 senses - see, hear, taste, smell & touch.
What is real is that Prigozhin had LONG condemned the RUS Def Ministry & its Generals on the conduct of war in UKR & lack of support to his brutal Wagner troops. PrezPutin while impressed & needed the Wagner storm troopers, he is NOT about to go Genghis Khan upon UKR, as he will lose support from Humankind & necessary funds for its war efforts thru revenues from trade, a factor that the old school RUS military Generals had to contend with & run the war effort thru lines of acceptable Rules of Engagement.
The decision to go march on Moscow came about when he was ordered to disband his shock troops & be absorbed into the regular RUS military. Mercenaries by nature are paid well for their irregular efforts & latitude in military discipline, but it seems that what was offered by the RUS State was NOT acceptable to 27,000 of them. What made matter worst was when the RUS military started slaughtering 2,000 of them outright for their refusal - the final straw that broke the camel's back - thus the decision to take that which is not given or promised.
The issue at hand is WHERE are these 27,000 mercenaries now, which mainstream media & think-tanks are not focussing on?
They had just raided the armory at Rostov, & are now WELL ARMED, not just with bullets, but with tanks & missiles, & is a battle unit. that tasted blood, on its own, that WILL destroy any resistance on its path.
They are a concern especially to RUS, as those mercenaries had shown fearless intent to march on Moscow come what may. Should that mercenary unit be sent to UKR, they may turn on instead upon the little trained & equipped RUS military there. They will not accept pathetic RUS State monetary offers, nor will they simply just kneel & be slaughtered again as happened recently.
Remember - no matter how ill disciplined an army is, leadership does not rely upon one single man alone. It is an organized hierarchical element of parts that made up the sum of whole.
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putin will use belarus to launch tactical nukes to destroy ukraine, and in retaliation britain and u.s. (sans france as macron is too balless) will launch nuke counterstrikes on belarus and not russia as in nuke rules of engagement counterstrikes are justified at the cuntry of pre-emption. in a pre-emptive tactical nuke strike, belarus is equally fucked like ukraine. lukashenko has no choice, but he’ll be spared as putin will ensure his safe evacuation. this joker putin will never give up.
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This war against Ukraine is not working out well for Putin.. Senseless sacrifices of Russian men just for his own selfish agenda. It has created many widows n young kids losing their father. It's time the Russian army n the citizens go against him to end this meaningless war...
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I thought wagner will use Belarus as a base to retake moscow? Prigozhin now complains that Russia only declared publicly 1/3 of the money confiscated from him.
https://news.yahoo.com/billions-roubles-prigozhin-claims-russian-124613179.html
Will relocation to Belarus quiet Prigozhin? That’s hard to see. Now, in theory, though he is beyond the long arm of Putin’s justice system.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/26/opinions/putin-prigozhin-russia-battle-andelman/index.html
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putin can kill 2 birds with 1 stone in belarus: launch nukes at ukraine when crimea and war are lost, force a new front with wagner at belarussian border with ukraine. and lastly, if west responds with nuke counterstrike, it will be confined to belarus and it will wipe out prigozhin and wagner at the same time.
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Don’t think strongman Putin wants a stalemate - a landlocked Ukraine looks like his end goal. But this goal post is moving further and further away
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Without the Wagner grp fighting for Putin, Russia is severely weaken n I don't think the Russian army has the zest to go on with this meaningless war..Don’t think strongman Putin wants a stalemate - a landlocked Ukraine looks like his end goal. But this goal post is moving further and further away
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Don’t think strongman Putin wants a stalemate - a landlocked Ukraine looks like his end goal. But this goal post is moving further and further away
Vladimir Putin made 'deep' mistake, Russia will soon have a new President - Prigozhin
https://www.livemint.com/news/vladi...-russia-soon-wagner-group-11687601985700.html
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ukraine just claimed they have retaken some territories lost in 2014.Don’t think strongman Putin wants a stalemate - a landlocked Ukraine looks like his end goal. But this goal post is moving further and further away
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Don’t think strongman Putin wants a stalemate - a landlocked Ukraine looks like his end goal. But this goal post is moving further and further away
landlocked Ukraine or the entire Donbas region and then Putin will want an end to the war.
where is it ? those territories should be deep inside Russia defensive lines.
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“Krasnohorivka in Donetsk.”
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9 killed, including 3 children, as Russian missile slams into pizza restaurant in east Ukraine city
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Russia Ukraine War
In this photo provided by the National Police of Ukraine, a police officer and a rescue worker walk in front of a restaurant RIA Pizza destroyed by a Russian attack in Kramatorsk, Ukraine, Tuesday, June 27, 2023. (National Police of Ukraine via AP)ASSOCIATED PRESS
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HANNA ARHIROVA
Updated Wed, 28 June 2023 at 10:08 am GMT+1
KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — A Russian missile attack that hit a crowded pizza restaurant in an eastern Ukrainian city killed at least nine people, including three children, authorities said Wednesday, as rescue workers continued searching in the destroyed building's rubble.
The Tuesday evening attack on Kramatorsk wounded another 56 people, the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs said, in the latest bombardment, a tactic Russia has used heavily in the 16-month-old war.
Two sisters, both age 14, died as result of the attack, the educational department of the Kramatorsk city council said. “Russian missiles stopped the beating of the hearts of two angels,” it said in a Telegram post.
The other dead child was 17, according to Prosecutor General Andrii Kostin.
The attack, using what officials said were S-300 missiles, also damaged 18 multi-story buildings, 65 houses, five schools, two kindergartens, a shopping center, an administrative building and a recreational building, the regional governor, Pavlo Kyrylenko, said. The S-300 is a surface-to-air missile that cannot hit ground targets accurately, but Russia’s forces have repurposed it for loosely targeted strikes on cities.
Kramatorsk is a front-line city that houses the Ukrainian army’s regional headquarters. The pizza restaurant was frequented by journalists, aid workers and soldiers, as well as locals.
It's located in Donetsk, one of four Ukrainian provinces that Russia claimed to annex last September but does not fully control. Russia has also occupied Crimea since 2015.
Ukrainian-held parts of the partially occupied provinces have been hit especially hard by Russian bombardment and are a key barrier to resolving the war.
The Kremlin demands that Kyiv recognize the annexations, while Kyiv has ruled out any talks with Russia until its troops pull back from all occupied territories. Kyiv recently launched a much-anticipated counteroffensive to take back occupied territory.
Russia, meanwhile, has stepped up its air campaign in Ukraine while the fighting continues along the front line.
Russian forces on Monday and overnight also shelled 16 settlements in the southern Zaporizhzhia region, the Ukrainian presidential office reported.
It said that a 77-year-old civilian was killed in the front-line town of Orikhiv, and that Russian shelling wounded three people in a nearby village recently retaken by Kyiv.
Also, a Russian supersonic cruise missile slammed into a cluster of holiday homes in central Ukraine, sparking a fire which injured a child, the presidential office said.
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There are some whom think that PrezPutin will be weakened by the revolt.
On the surface, PrezPutin will do all he can to consolidate his power, showing to the World that his Cabinet & People are with him. But unfortunately, still water runs deep. Beneath the surface, dissent is ALREADY forming in every level of RUS society, made worse by how he handled the failed revolt, without even considering how the supposed 'short' UKR was to be, & failing with each every day, as well as the state of the RUS economy. Issues are spinning way out of his control, as each day passes by with UKR war.
The brutal Stalin would have annihilated each & everyone of the rebels. But he lived in a different era. PrezPutin does not have the MORAL authority or the luxury to do so, without harming his standing & economic aims amongst his allies whom had provided the mercenaries, in this era, as well as the use of such mercenary groups in RUS other conflicts in the World such as Syria, African nations, etc. None would trust or join RUS if those rebels were slaughtered, whom did have genuine concerns that should had been better managed long ago.
The rot of dependency on mercenaries began after the failed invasion of Afghanistan by USSR. PrezPutin presumed he can rely on trained mercenaries than conscripts to the do its dirty work, & thus the growth & prominence of the Wagner mercenary group over the years, & NEGLECT upon its own RUS military in terms of budget & training.
He assumed billions spent on mercenaries & nukes would ensure rest of Humanity would be frightened enough & would kneel to RUS aims. The barbaric invasion of UKR proved his assumptions wrong.
Secondly, in terms of RUS military morale, it had sunk to depths unknown now. Ill disciplined but well paid & well fed foreign troops are treated better than RUS conscripts. Even when the rebel, they go scot free, AND YET, RUS conscripts have to obey, sacrifice their own lives for a nation that cares not for them. Worse still, such experienced brutal mercenaries WOULD rebel, how more those young conscripts - little trained & ill equipped facing the might of NOT just UKR soldiers, but the MIGHT of 7 Billion Humankind supporting UKR?
Even the administration of USA had faced a 'march on Washington' in the late 60's during its Vietnam war, only that those who marched were unarmed & were civilians, whom demanded an end to its senseless Vietnam war, & succeeded, made the govt realized its mistake & today, Vietnam is a friend.
The longer the war in UKR by RUS drags on, sooner or later the troops will realize the futility & senselessness of the war. Stockholm Syndrome will sink it, worse when troops are rotated out & replenished by fresh conscripts, as NONE will forget the horror of war, of watching one's army buddy's brains & intestines flowing out after being shot by from bombs & bullets beside him... He is not born out of a vacuum, but have family, friends & relatives, & words will spread.... For What are they fighting & sacrificing their precious young lives for....?
All UKR needs to do now is to observe the Rules of Engagement & treatment of POWs. Always give the RUS troops a chance to surrender. Announce over radio, media, etc. The RUS troops ARE NOT the enemy of UKR. It is the RUS govt that are, whom are hell bent on continuing this war, even SLAUGHTERING innocent UNARMED fellow Humans whom were only dining out at a restaurant on a weekend after a hard week of honest work...
On the surface, PrezPutin will do all he can to consolidate his power, showing to the World that his Cabinet & People are with him. But unfortunately, still water runs deep. Beneath the surface, dissent is ALREADY forming in every level of RUS society, made worse by how he handled the failed revolt, without even considering how the supposed 'short' UKR was to be, & failing with each every day, as well as the state of the RUS economy. Issues are spinning way out of his control, as each day passes by with UKR war.
The brutal Stalin would have annihilated each & everyone of the rebels. But he lived in a different era. PrezPutin does not have the MORAL authority or the luxury to do so, without harming his standing & economic aims amongst his allies whom had provided the mercenaries, in this era, as well as the use of such mercenary groups in RUS other conflicts in the World such as Syria, African nations, etc. None would trust or join RUS if those rebels were slaughtered, whom did have genuine concerns that should had been better managed long ago.
The rot of dependency on mercenaries began after the failed invasion of Afghanistan by USSR. PrezPutin presumed he can rely on trained mercenaries than conscripts to the do its dirty work, & thus the growth & prominence of the Wagner mercenary group over the years, & NEGLECT upon its own RUS military in terms of budget & training.
He assumed billions spent on mercenaries & nukes would ensure rest of Humanity would be frightened enough & would kneel to RUS aims. The barbaric invasion of UKR proved his assumptions wrong.
Secondly, in terms of RUS military morale, it had sunk to depths unknown now. Ill disciplined but well paid & well fed foreign troops are treated better than RUS conscripts. Even when the rebel, they go scot free, AND YET, RUS conscripts have to obey, sacrifice their own lives for a nation that cares not for them. Worse still, such experienced brutal mercenaries WOULD rebel, how more those young conscripts - little trained & ill equipped facing the might of NOT just UKR soldiers, but the MIGHT of 7 Billion Humankind supporting UKR?
Even the administration of USA had faced a 'march on Washington' in the late 60's during its Vietnam war, only that those who marched were unarmed & were civilians, whom demanded an end to its senseless Vietnam war, & succeeded, made the govt realized its mistake & today, Vietnam is a friend.
The longer the war in UKR by RUS drags on, sooner or later the troops will realize the futility & senselessness of the war. Stockholm Syndrome will sink it, worse when troops are rotated out & replenished by fresh conscripts, as NONE will forget the horror of war, of watching one's army buddy's brains & intestines flowing out after being shot by from bombs & bullets beside him... He is not born out of a vacuum, but have family, friends & relatives, & words will spread.... For What are they fighting & sacrificing their precious young lives for....?
All UKR needs to do now is to observe the Rules of Engagement & treatment of POWs. Always give the RUS troops a chance to surrender. Announce over radio, media, etc. The RUS troops ARE NOT the enemy of UKR. It is the RUS govt that are, whom are hell bent on continuing this war, even SLAUGHTERING innocent UNARMED fellow Humans whom were only dining out at a restaurant on a weekend after a hard week of honest work...
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In the long tirade by PrezPutin for his reasons to brutally invade UKR, one of it that its allies found acceptable was the notion that RUS was surrounded by NATO.
Thing is, there is no smoke without fire. WHY would NATO do such a thing in peacetime? The reality is that USSR & its present govt are equally alike with cold war mentality. Today's RUS attempt to be an independent sovereign state & such a choice is respected by all Humankind. However, by its actions in Syria & other nations, especially in its attempt to upset the economic World order in the invasion of UKR, it caused much sufferings amongst Humankind with rise in commodities prices such as oil, food, etc as well as security concerns.
It no longer seemed that RUS sought to be an independent sovereign nation, but to RULE THE WORLD, & worse, by dictatorship on whims & fancies of the ruler than the Rule of Law. Thus, its neighbors had to take precautions & refusal to submit to tyranny, as is in the blood of all FREE Humankind.
Such sadly, is beyond the comprehension of most RUS citizens, whom only are worried more about bread & butter issues, & presumed that the leaders they elected or believed to have elected would do the RIGHT thing - to discuss, debate & find solutions than to go to war where loved ones would be decimated. Any issue can be discussed, debated & solutions thru compromises can be found, but sadly, the present RUS govt chose NOT to do so but to resort to a savage war that is not only upon the valiant & courageous UKR People, but to Humankind as well.
Another issue PrezPutin raised was that the war was to protect those Russian speakers whom expressed so called 'loyalty' to Russia. This is an outright lie, that PrezPutin may not had known. Those russian speaking ukrainians are LANDOWNERS & their employees. RUS conscripts whom had been sent to defend them with their precious lives are NOT defending Russia, but only those RICH LANDOWNERS, to acquire MORE land should RUS wins & NOTHING, not even pity for the RUS youths whom fought for them.
Such has happened in recent Humankind history before, if not eons ago. The birth of the ORIGINAL China Communist Party was against the decadent Qing empire as well as the numerous greedy landowners - lap dogs of the Qings. The CCP realized truths. None of the decadent were spared for their destruction of the country & lives.
Thru the Pentagon papers, USA found that it's precious youths had been sacrifice to prop up a CORRUPT Southern Vietnam regime, & fortunately ended the war before more precious lives were lost on both sides.
So what are precious RUS youths born out of love by parents, family, relatives & friends, are sacrificing their lives for?
Thing is, there is no smoke without fire. WHY would NATO do such a thing in peacetime? The reality is that USSR & its present govt are equally alike with cold war mentality. Today's RUS attempt to be an independent sovereign state & such a choice is respected by all Humankind. However, by its actions in Syria & other nations, especially in its attempt to upset the economic World order in the invasion of UKR, it caused much sufferings amongst Humankind with rise in commodities prices such as oil, food, etc as well as security concerns.
It no longer seemed that RUS sought to be an independent sovereign nation, but to RULE THE WORLD, & worse, by dictatorship on whims & fancies of the ruler than the Rule of Law. Thus, its neighbors had to take precautions & refusal to submit to tyranny, as is in the blood of all FREE Humankind.
Such sadly, is beyond the comprehension of most RUS citizens, whom only are worried more about bread & butter issues, & presumed that the leaders they elected or believed to have elected would do the RIGHT thing - to discuss, debate & find solutions than to go to war where loved ones would be decimated. Any issue can be discussed, debated & solutions thru compromises can be found, but sadly, the present RUS govt chose NOT to do so but to resort to a savage war that is not only upon the valiant & courageous UKR People, but to Humankind as well.
Another issue PrezPutin raised was that the war was to protect those Russian speakers whom expressed so called 'loyalty' to Russia. This is an outright lie, that PrezPutin may not had known. Those russian speaking ukrainians are LANDOWNERS & their employees. RUS conscripts whom had been sent to defend them with their precious lives are NOT defending Russia, but only those RICH LANDOWNERS, to acquire MORE land should RUS wins & NOTHING, not even pity for the RUS youths whom fought for them.
Such has happened in recent Humankind history before, if not eons ago. The birth of the ORIGINAL China Communist Party was against the decadent Qing empire as well as the numerous greedy landowners - lap dogs of the Qings. The CCP realized truths. None of the decadent were spared for their destruction of the country & lives.
Thru the Pentagon papers, USA found that it's precious youths had been sacrifice to prop up a CORRUPT Southern Vietnam regime, & fortunately ended the war before more precious lives were lost on both sides.
So what are precious RUS youths born out of love by parents, family, relatives & friends, are sacrificing their lives for?
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