Job Hunting Tips for OZ

[scroobal]

Its a simple question - why do contractors can get up to $100/ per hr for doing the same job year after year in the same organsiation but the perm does not even come close. Does not matter whether in OZ or lOndon

A straight forward answer with one or 2 lines will do.

Again, you keep talking about the rates per hour. There's cost associated with hiring a perm staff should not be ignored. It might work up about the same (though the pay component to employee is much less), talk to a HR professional and you will get more insight.

Why pay more? Many reasons -

1) Fill up a project position which needs to be addressed quickly.
2) No headcount to hire a perm. Easier to justify hiring a contractor and quicker to get approval.
3) Specialised skillset can't get from existing pool.
4) Someone to be 'blamed', contractor is a good target if things do not work up. No string attached, hire and fire easily ( I have seen this happened b4 by the way)

Bottomline, no hiring managers would want to keep a expensive contractor for long, sooner or later the senior executive will go after him to reduce cost. (unless they have absolutely no choice). During downtime, contractors are told to lower their rates or keep the rates the same. Perm still get some increment and bonus.

Is it better to be a contractor or perm - up to you to judge?

If its in london, gaps between contractors and perms are so much more, then is worth to be a contractor. in OZ, contractors and perm gap are not a lot, minus gov job which pays by rank.

 

[IWC2006]

Its a simple question - why do contractors can get up to $100/ per hr for doing the same job year after year in the same organsiation but the perm does not even come close. Does not matter whether in OZ or lOndon

A straight forward answer with one or 2 lines will do.

Because you only have 1 dimensonal view of things. I don't think I need to explain any further because you won't get it anyway.

 

[scroobal]

I noticed that you have evaded this question repeatedly. There is the possibility that you might not aware. Will share what I found.

I was curious about this phenomenon and I asked a chap from Gartner to put up a paper on it as this was quite commonplace in OZ, UK, but not in Singapore and not as much in the US.

This was the gist of what it stated.

1) High End of IT skills are evolving like Medicine, Engineering and many of the professional vocations where good doctors, engineerings, geologist etc leave salaried and tenured positions and are able to command such fees. Similar to a plastic surgeon or cardiologist where they able to command much more higher fees by going private.

2) Their skills come to the fore when vendors meet with the in-house team at design stage to nut out the approach. The comments from the vendors especially the big boys on skills and competency of these contractors are telling. The final test is when they deliver their end of stipulated task.

My understanding is that these people have built up a skillset and thus have reputation in the market similar to statutory registered professionals such as doctors. Its not only DBAs, but System Architects and PMs as well.

I asked for the report because I was surprised by the cost differential and even more surprised that many have held the position for years. Obviously I had the impression that it was sheer waste.

Believe me, I was disappointed that I could not save cost in an area that I initially thought was bloated. It also led me to believe that many IT professionals in Singapore have been exploited.

Hopefully one day, these people with great IT acumen can form an appropriate professional body similar to statutory bodies with appropriate licensing. I am sure you will agree as there are number of cowboys that are also masquerading as contracting pros.

ps. Gartner also advised that status of contractors are not revealed to all IT staff to avoid morale issue. 3 of the OZ big banks and a select number of number of large companies also carry out performance appraisal if a contractor exceeds one year.

Because you only have 1 dimensonal view of things. I don't think I need to explain any further because you won't get it anyway.

 

[IWC2006]

I noticed that you have evaded this question repeatedly. There is the possibility that you might not aware. Will share what I found.

I was curious about this phenomenon and I asked a chap from Gartner to put up a paper on it as this was quite commonplace in OZ, UK, but not in Singapore and not as much in the US.

This was the gist of what it stated.

1) High End of IT skills are evolving like Medicine, Engineering and many of the professional vocations where good doctors, engineerings, geologist etc leave salaried and tenured positions and are able to command such fees. Similar to a plastic surgeon or cardiologist where they able to command much more higher fees by going private.

Aiya, please don't compare IT skills with Medical professionals. To start with, medical professionals require stringent qualification/certification and years of training prior becoming private . The porportion of medical professionals out there is scarce (this is the same everywhere) vs IT, where anyone can pick up the skills as long he or she has the determination and passion for it. Many I come across don't even have IT degrees, they just do a upgrade course with TAFE. Its really silly for Gartner to compare a IT professional with a Medical professional, totally different skills and scarcity. A IT project can get canned if its prolonged, a human life can't.

.



2) Their skills come to the fore when vendors meet with the in-house team at design stage to nut out the approach. The comments from the vendors especially the big boys on skills and competency of these contractors are telling. The final test is when they deliver their end of stipulated task.

Surveys are surveys, they do not represent the truth in every workplace. I rather believe what I see. I would agree those exceptional contractors will go extra miles to deliver the goods but there are perms out there equally good but prefer to have a stable career with lower pay.



My understanding is that these people have built up a skillset and thus have reputation in the market similar to statutory registered professionals such as doctors. Its not only DBAs, but System Architects and PMs as well.

Not a good comparison. As I mentioned earlier, IT keeps evolving, no one would always have a high demand skillset. Often when a product matures, there are more skills in the market. In IT, u have plenty of options, if A commands a high rate, then go with B with lower rates, or engage a vendor. Cost is a factor. In medical profession, there is only 1 option, to go with doctor A to save one's life and leave the life and death with a less reputable doctor.




I asked for the report because I was surprised by the cost differential and even more surprised that many have held the position for years. Obviously I had the impression that it was sheer waste.

Believe me, I was disappointed that I could not save cost in an area that I initially thought was bloated. It also led me to believe that many IT professionals in Singapore have been exploited.

We are not taling about Singapore here, aren't we? We are talking about the Australian market, with reference to US or UK which have more advanced and mature


Hopefully one day, these people with great IT acumen can form an appropriate professional body similar to statutory bodies with appropriate licensing. I am sure you will agree as there are number of cowboys that are also masquerading as contracting pros.

I don't see how this could happen. It would have to start with the IT giant in the US

ps. Gartner also advised that status of contractors are not revealed to all IT staff to avoid morale issue. 3 of the OZ big banks and a select number of number of large companies also carry out performance appraisal if a contractor exceeds one year.

Aiya, perms are not stupid, they know they are definitely underpaid then contractors, but there is a price to pay for everything. Contractors also have their issues, and they run risk of not getting any work in months when the demand goes down.

There's nothing stopping a perm to join another firm as contractor, he may start lower rates but will catchup once he's proven his skills in the marketplace

 

[scroobal]

As you are in IT, I am keen to find out your views. There has to be economic rationale for the wide remuneration gap and I am talking about those contractors in the same organsiation for many years.

It cannot be so simple as anyone can become a contractor if they feel like it. I am sure you have to have premium skills or the necessary IT acumen especially those who are retained for long duration and not tied to projects.

Aiya, perms are not stupid, they know they are definitely underpaid then contractors, but there is a price to pay for everything. Contractors also have their issues, and they run risk of not getting any work in months when the demand goes down.

There's nothing stopping a perm to join another firm as contractor, he may start lower rates but will catchup once he's proven his skills in the marketplace

 

[fishbuff]

I don't believe Fishbuff have made a wrong choice starting as a contractor. I just think he has stucked too long in the backward Queensland - a good tourist spot but bad for career advancement coming from a developed nation.

woe is me!
i did rac and dataguard back in SG and less than a handful here in brisbane are using such technology, plus here in brisbane, the major employers are govt sector. with the current economic slowdown and QLD is in debts, anna bligh is playing up some excuses to sell public assets to pay off the debts. How the management here perceive SG to be a 3rd world country is due to their ignorance and it is my responsibilty to correct their ignorance bytelling them consistently that SG has a more advance adoption of IT as compared to here, which is at least 3-5 years behind SG. most of the places here are still running 2-tier setup with 1998's oracle forms!

i dont let those angmohs talk me down, i have better knowledge and i will tell them off,

i have been dying to move to sydney and melbourne but family is putting up a fight with me on this.

 

[scroobal]

Its sad but that is the situation. Will share something that is commonplace in the world of buying businesses such as banks and big companies. During due diligence, staff qualification also has a input in price consideration. Staff with western qualifications weighted double while those with SG qualification carry the same weight as the rest of the 3rd world inclouding India, China, Bangladesh etc. Sad.

How the management here perceive SG to be a 3rd world country is due to their ignorance and it is my responsibilty to correct their ignorance bytelling them consistently that SG has a more advance adoption of IT as compared to here, which is at least 3-5 years behind SG. most of the places here are still running 2-tier setup with 1998's oracle forms!

Would strongly encourage the move to Sydney. One other hotbed for high end IT contracting and pretty much cutting edge is Canberra. This is where the super contracts are done and the all major IT players either are headquartered there or have strong presence. They cater for huge govt projects especially defence and infrastrucutre and they are state of the srt. ONce known in Canberra for your skills, you will be well placed. Only problem is that the city is bloody boring. If you are clocking hrs, then not a problem. Its also the home of hotshot DBAs and you can figure out why.

Tell your family that its a 2 to 3 year venture to pay for en excellent lifestyle.

i have been dying to move to sydney and melbourne but family is putting up a fight with me on this.

 

[neddy]

woe is me!
...

i have been dying to move to sydney and melbourne but family is putting up a fight with me on this.

I can understand how you feel.

After settling down in a city, and having gone through a cycle of hardwork of adaptation, it is often difficult to uproot again to move. Sometimes, we guys do not know that the spouses and kids have gone through to settle in a city. But kids are much better at adjusting.

Perhaps you should bring your family to sydney and melbourne for holidays. Not just any holidays but plan it such that a move is not as daunting.

For Perth, we just convince the family that the shopping is better , they are able to get the same asian ingredients and more variety of greens. Not sure if this help, but I hope your wife will understand what work means for a man. And you need to take more responsibilities this time for any resettlement.

 

[IWC2006]

As you are in IT, I am keen to find out your views. There has to be economic rationale for the wide remuneration gap and I am talking about those contractors in the same organsiation for many years.

It cannot be so simple as anyone can become a contractor if they feel like it. I am sure you have to have premium skills or the necessary IT acumen especially those who are retained for long duration and not tied to projects.

I'm not doing technical but I hired technical staff to work for me. We don't just look for pure technie skills - cultural fit and interpersonal skills are just as important. If we come across candidate with very good technical skills but perceived as arrogant or difficult to work with, they don't make our cut.

We conduct technical tests prior shortlisting for face to face interview, I can tell you most of them are about the same, with a few exceptional ones. We received perms and contractors applications , we don't differentiate if they are perm or doing contracting as long they make the mark. Unless Sg, employers asked whats the candidates previous pay to work up the expected salary, here we don't practise such acts which IMO is rather bias. Often, we come across good candidates but were underpaid previously thus mark up their salary to be on par with the market. Seriously we don't believe contractors are definitely better, but since the jobs are short term, we target mostly the contracting market, and we don't mind paying for a premium if we come across very solid candidates.

 

[scroobal]

It does make economic sense. I too was surprised by the premium when I first came over. People were struggling to explain to me. There are plastic surgeons and there are really good plastic surgeons that command the premium.

I was led to believe that the best are in Canberra by Gartner. Have excellent communication skills plus the tech skills. Looks like the Govt pays a premium for sensitive work. As you probably know that banks tend to milk the system especially the receivables platform till kingdom come.

I thought it was an interesting area to explore and I still do.

we don't mind paying for a premium if we come across very solid candidates.

 

[IWC2006]

It does make economic sense. I too was surprised by the premium when I first came over. People were struggling to explain to me. There are plastic surgeons and there are really good plastic surgeons that command the premium.

I was led to believe that the best are in Canberra by Gartner. Have excellent communication skills plus the tech skills. Looks like the Govt pays a premium for sensitive work. As you probably know that banks tend to milk the system especially the receivables platform till kingdom come.

I thought it was an interesting area to explore and I still do.

Canberra is a different story because its a boring state and not many people wants to be based there. With high demand and low supply, Canberra is certainly a heaven for contractors, even if they have mediocre skills.

In Sg, IT skills are treated as commodity thus everyone strive to become Senior managers or executives as these are the people earning top dollars. In Oz, technical skills are valued as high-end skills just as important as managers. The salary gaps between a technical role vs a manager role is really not much of a difference.

In Sydney, you have the choice of either paying top dollar for quality and I do not mean the workplace but in everyday's life such as fine dining, property with harbour views, posch car,s award-wining hair saloon, personal training to even high-end grocery.

 

[axe168]

i dont let those angmohs talk me down, i have better knowledge and i will tell them off,

i have been dying to move to sydney and melbourne but family is putting up a fight with me on this.

Yo Bro, like to share my experience.. it doesnt really matter how/what you feel.. if your family likes it.. you'll have peace, harmony & happiness. (If they dont, ya have hell!) Wifey will place nice cook food on the table.. Son will have his buddy-old-pal in school.. mummies in school will invite your son over for play.. eventually, Mummy and Daddy will dine and lim kopi with their parents while kids are playing..

We have several dinners with the Asian families liao, most have been here for a long time.. No new migrants mentality. This Sat, we are bringing an Ang Mo's son and daughter to Dockland's playground.. Frz / happiness is where it begins..

Seriously, to achieve "happiness" .. your personal expectation is not longer important liao..

 

[scroobal]

According Gartner, high end IT work is done on Canberra and low end is done in Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane for work issued out of Canberra.. Thats because there is more critical mass in these cities and its also part of Federal Govt policy to farm out economic activity to rest of Australia. Also possibly everyone is attracted to big cities and it just too costly to hire such a low end workers in Canberra.

Typically, the high end IT guys have apartments in Canberra for the week to work with customers which is usually the various arms of the federal govt. They then fly back to either Sydney and Melbourne to their family and homes.

I was also told one other thing that I thought was quite interesting was that drug problems among teenagers is bad in Canberra as some bad hats bring in contraband thru diplomatic pouche.

However when their kids reach Uni, they bring them over to ANU, which is no. 1 in the country.

Canberra is a different story because its a boring state and not many people wants to be based there. With high demand and low supply, Canberra is certainly a heaven for contractors, even if they have mediocre skills.

In Sg, IT skills are treated as commodity thus everyone strive to become Senior managers or executives as these are the people earning top dollars. In Oz, technical skills are valued as high-end skills just as important as managers. The salary gaps between a technical role vs a manager role is really not much of a difference.

In Sydney, you have the choice of either paying top dollar for quality and I do not mean the workplace but in everyday's life such as fine dining, property with harbour views, posch car,s award-wining hair saloon, personal training to even high-end grocery.

 

[Ash007]

According Gartner, high end IT work is done on Canberra and low end is done in Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane for work issued out of Canberra.. Thats because there is more critical mass in these cities and its also part of Federal Govt policy to farm out economic activity to rest of Australia. Also possibly everyone is attracted to big cities and it just too costly to hire such a low end workers in Canberra.

Typically, the high end IT guys have apartments in Canberra for the week to work with customers which is usually the various arms of the federal govt. They then fly back to either Sydney and Melbourne to their family and homes.

I was also told one other thing that I thought was quite interesting was that drug problems among teenagers is bad in Canberra as some bad hats bring in contraband thru diplomatic pouche.

However when their kids reach Uni, they bring them over to ANU, which is no. 1 in the country.

Don't forget the one pot of weed that you can grow in Canberra and I think its not illegal to carry one ounce for "personal use" in Canberra. Too bad no more "legal" fireworks sale now. Sigh.... I missed out going to Canberra for the fireworks.

 

[scroobal]

Interesting. I have been to Canberra a number of times and it is indeed an unusual city. There are small shops and HQs of major IT, Pharmaceutical, Consultancy, Defence and very high end entities. Nothing in between.

Dead as doorpost after 5pm. And the food at Sammy's Kitchen is mediocre. Any suggestions.

Don't forget the one pot of weed that you can grow in Canberra and I think its not illegal to carry one ounce for "personal use" in Canberra. Too bad no more "legal" fireworks sale now. Sigh.... I missed out going to Canberra for the fireworks.

 

[Ash007]

Interesting. I have been to Canberra a number of times and it is indeed an unusual city. There are small shops and HQs of major IT, Pharmaceutical, Consultancy, Defence and very high end entities. Nothing in between.

Dead as doorpost after 5pm. And the food at Sammy's Kitchen is mediocre. Any suggestions.

Try this mate, haven't been to Canberra much. So have no idea, always wanted to make the trip, but after hearing how boring and how expensive hotels are in Canberra, I'll rather drive all the way to Melbourne where all the action is. By the way, the site says its 2 pots and 27 grams for personal use. Another place is Adelaide, known for its "weeds".

Instead, go to Civic (Thursday and Friday nights are the best time) and find a smallish club called Toast on the far eastern side, sort of near the Canberra Casino. If you know where Electric Shadows used to be (look for a staircase), Toast is located on one side of a funky courtyard at the top of the stairs which is full of Hexagons.

http://www.webehigh.com/city/detail.php?CITYID=2084

 

[IWC2006]

According Gartner, high end IT work is done on Canberra and low end is done in Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane for work issued out of Canberra.. Thats because there is more critical mass in these cities and its also part of Federal Govt policy to farm out economic activity to rest of Australia. Also possibly everyone is attracted to big cities and it just too costly to hire such a low end workers in Canberra.

Typically, the high end IT guys have apartments in Canberra for the week to work with customers which is usually the various arms of the federal govt. They then fly back to either Sydney and Melbourne to their family and homes.

I was also told one other thing that I thought was quite interesting was that drug problems among teenagers is bad in Canberra as some bad hats bring in contraband thru diplomatic pouche.

However when their kids reach Uni, they bring them over to ANU, which is no. 1 in the country.

Aiya, whatever Gartners say you have to treat it as pinch of salt. There is no market for banking & finance in Canberra which are where the most lucrative IT projects are based and the banks are among the top payers. If gov jobs then yes Canberra is big. Bottom line is not many people want to work in Canberra and commute back to Sydney or Melbourne.

Just like in Sg, not many people want to commute to Tuas or Jurong to work, thus companies have to raised higher rates to attract workers to be there.

ANU is very much a research university and its postgraduate are rated highly globally, but its undergraduate is actually not difficult to get in. Ask the top high school graduates they will opt to go Melbourne U, UNSW, Sydney and Monash which are much more competitive to get in then ANU.

 

[scroobal]

I suspect that all along you have been talking about mid and low level IT jobs and task and I have been talking about the high end. In that case, you are probably right about. You might not be familiar with the top end.

I realised that when I saw your comment about Gartner.

Aiya, whatever Gartners say you have to treat it as pinch of salt. There is no market for banking & finance in Canberra which are where the most lucrative IT projects are based and the banks are among the top payers. If gov jobs then yes Canberra is big. Bottom line is not many people want to work in Canberra and commute back to Sydney or Melbourne.

Just like in Sg, not many people want to commute to Tuas or Jurong to work, thus companies have to raised higher rates to attract workers to be there.

ANU is very much a research university and its postgraduate are rated highly globally, but its undergraduate is actually not difficult to get in. Ask the top high school graduates they will opt to go Melbourne U, UNSW, Sydney and Monash which are much more competitive to get in then ANU.

 

[scroobal]

Yep. you are right. For medicine, which is the best?

ANU is very much a research university and its postgraduate are rated highly globally, but its undergraduate is actually not difficult to get in. Ask the top high school graduates they will opt to go Melbourne U, UNSW, Sydney and Monash which are much more competitive to get in then ANU.

 

[scroobal]

Yeah, Civic is the only thing going for Canberra. Manuka has good estalished restaurants. Believe me, it such a boring city, that you can do the sight in half a day. I can understand why people fly out each evening like John Howard did.

ANU humanities, law and post grad programs are of a high standard. As there are no distractions, one will probably score highly.

Try this mate, haven't been to Canberra much. So have no idea, always wanted to make the trip, but after hearing how boring and how expensive hotels are in Canberra, I'll rather drive all the way to Melbourne where all the action is. By the way, the site says its 2 pots and 27 grams for personal use. Another place is Adelaide, known for its "weeds".



http://www.webehigh.com/city/detail.php?CITYID=2084