Job Hunting Tips for OZ

[neddy]

I am surprised your are still falling for this troll. He has a relatives in every thread that has issues living in OZ. Remember his sister ran away from Perth. Lets not feed this guy and wreck another thread. He is not looking for an explanantion but a response from you.

Maybe I am too kind to try to be INCLUSIVE, when he has NO interest in wanting to be accept cyber-socially.

 

[scroobal]

Too nice of you bro.

Maybe I am too kind to try to be INCLUSIVE, when he has NO interest in wanting to be accept cyber-socially.

 

[IWC2006]

Maybe going into specifics can help. As you are in the IT line, maybe you can explain to the rest of us why an oracle database administrator who is a contractor draws such a high hourly remuneration compared to a perm staff. I am referring to contractors remaining in the same organisations for years.

It will certainly help to clear the air.

Simple, its not just about his skllset. He has built good working relationship and network in the organisation after working there for quite a while. He is known as the 'Oracle guru' in the organisation, everyone likes him. Is he not iresplaceable, don't think so, but he proves his worth. He has probably more knowledge gained over the years then a perm doing the same job, but does that neccessary translate all contractors produce better quality of work then perms, don't think so. Higher skills but not neccessary transate to better quality, some people can be complacent after a while, others will catchup. Again, I am not refering to public sector here.

 

[scroobal]

So the flip side is that perm chap is not so good at networking does not take the trouble to build up his "guru" status via knowledge etc. Thus the price premium.differential in the remuneration scale exist.

So what was wrong with my posts.

Simple, its not just about his skllset. He has built good working relationship and network in the organisation after working there for quite a while. He is known as the 'Oracle guru' in the organisation, everyone likes him. Is he not iresplaceable, don't think so, but he proves his worth. He has probably more knowledge gained over the years then a perm doing the same job, but does that neccessary translate all contractors produce better quality of work then perms, don't think so. Higher skills but not neccessary transate to better quality, some people can be complacent after a while, others will catchup. Again, I am not refering to public sector here.

 

[fishbuff]

Maybe going into specifics can help. As you are in the IT line, maybe you can explain to the rest of us why an oracle database administrator who is a contractor draws such a high hourly remuneration compared to a perm staff. I am referring to contractors remaining in the same organisations for years.

It will certainly help to clear the air.

it is all about marketing and the ability to present their ability as an IT powerhouse. my ex-senior oracle dba boasted that he commanded rates that are NEVER below $100/hr, however, competitions here are very keen and it is impossible for me to get oracle dba contractor job probably due to the fact that im asian in queensland even though i am doing better works as a contract system administrator and i still can surpass most of the oracle dbas' works here. so my advice to aspiring migrants that are in IT field, go to sydney or melbourne, that where the real jobs are and you get less discrimination when it comes to hiring.

 

[scroobal]

Agree with you on the first para. Any way, I don't think its about being asians in your case as asians are very well regarded in IT for their skills and work ethics. Many firms will pick an Asian especially a singaporean.

In your case, you made the mistake of going straight into contracting. If you check with other Asians, they would have started as perm first, drop anchor, build reputation and build network. I think I told you this before. The CV is very important. The IT head will be crucified if the DBA contractor stuffs up or sabotages the DB and they find out that he had no prior permanent tenure in Australia. The issue can be mitigated if the IT head can say that he has previously worked in HSBC in Sydney like IWC2006 so everything was above board. Having worked at HSBC in Sydney in a perm position for a number of years is a powerful statement in any CV.

I know many firms will not hire a high end contactor that has no perm employment track record because of the lack of due diligence in the character space. If you worked as a perm for 3 to 5 years, you would have undergone solid performance appraisal which counts a lot. Dbases are sensitive and commercially important thus it becomes even more acute to be careful.

It will take time, but it will take longer in your case. Just be positive during interviews.

it is all about marketing and the ability to present their services as a powerhouse in the IT vertical. my ex-senior oracle dba boasted that he commanded rates that are NEVER below $100/hr, but i am doing all the inhouse db and bpel support and i scripted 80% of the unix scripts to run the entire dept but i less than 2/3 of that.

probably due to the fact that im asian in queensland. if u can offer me $75/hr, i will work for u!

 

[fishbuff]

Agree with you on the first para. Any way, I don't think its about being asians in your case as asians are very well regarded in IT for their skills and work ethics. Many firms will pick an Asian especially a singaporean.

In your case, you made the mistake of going straight into contracting. If you check with other Asians, they would have started as perm first, drop anchor, build reputation and build network. I think I told you this before. The CV is very important. The IT head will be crucified if the DBA contractor stuffs up or sabotages the DB and they find out that he had no prior permanent tenure in Australia. The issue can be mitigated if the IT head can say that he has previously worked in HSBC in Sydney like IWC2006 so everything was above board. Having worked at HSBC in Sydney in a perm position for a number of years is a powerful statement in any CV.

I know many firms will not hire a high end contactor that has no perm employment track record because of the lack of due diligence in the character space. If you worked as a perm for 3 to 5 years, you would have undergone solid performance appraisal which counts a lot. Dbases are sensitive and commercially important thus it becomes even more acute to be careful.

It will take time, but it will take longer in your case. Just be positive during interviews.

it is not a mistake to go into contracting as i have the past experiences and certifications. DB is DB regardless of where u go, it is the communication skills that is the main hinderance. I had worked with bigger systems that are more expensive and complicated as compared to these simpler ones in Oz. If u are singaporean and u have two CVs; one is a singaporean and the other is an indian FT, who will u choose? Unless the later has a skill in a field that is so unique, it is impossible for u not to hire the local singaporean over the indian IT professional. i wont limit my skillset nor my expectation, and like i said before, some singaporeans will try to hinder your aspiration by putting psychological barrier and limitation on your abilities. Yes, your advice is of good intent, but the background of how u derive it are still based on what PAP had done to us throughout the years and that is to put down the capabilities of the citizens. i appreciate it but i disagree with your opinion on this.

As far as the comparison between the permies and contractors, as i had worked mostly in bigger organisation and public sectors, most of the permie will disappear before 5pm, and very few are willing to work overtime and over weekend. the contractors like us carry the burden of doing the works, test out the implementation and once everything is ok, we hand over to the permie and spoonfeed them. maybe this is different in sydney and melb. im not sure.

performance appraisal? here in public sector? u have to be joking. they have no concept of SLA, KPI, and PA. zero, nada, there is no such thing as business continuity plan, no disaster recovery procedure, yes, im flabbergasted and shocked. But who am i to tell the management about this?

Sensitive data? well.. i wont go into details on this due to the type of data that im handling now.

 

[fishbuff]

So the flip side is that perm chap is not so good at networking does not take the trouble to build up his "guru" status via knowledge etc. Thus the price premium.differential in the remuneration scale exist.

So what was wrong with my posts.

there is a big gap between asians and local/pommie technical folks and that is the capacity of their eloquency. The asians tend to undersell themselves due to their upbringing (asians never boast but humble and prudent) whereas the angmohs especially the pommies tend to oversell themselves. of all the pommies i have met, man, they can really whinge and complain.

 

[axe168]

As far as the comparison between the permies and contractors, as i had worked mostly in bigger organisation and public sectors, most of the permie will disappear before 5pm, and very few are willing to work overtime and over weekend. the contractors like us carry the burden of doing the works, test out the implementation and once everything is ok, we hand over to the permie and spoonfeed them. maybe this is different in sydney and melb. im not sure..

Wei, I am warning you.. do not spoil the market leh ! Work-life-balance ? What is the reason for us to come here ? to make lots of $$$ or family bond ? Err.. I have no objection if you can have both

 

[scroobal]

Agree with you and thats why Singaporeans with their English education tend to be marketable.

there is a big gap between asians and local/pommie technical folks and that is the capacity of their eloquency. The asians tend to undersell themselves due to their upbringing (asians never boast but humble and prudent) whereas the angmohs especially the pommies tend to oversell themselves. of all the pommies i have met, man, they can really whinge and complain.

 

[neddy]

of all the pommies i have met, man, they can really whinge and complain.

hahaha, the scots are slightly better, because no one can understand their whineing in their thick accent.

have you noticed that the poms tend to be panicky when things go wrong. serve them right for taking on more than they should.

... and then, there are those who have had a good expat life in Singapore before coming over to Perth. They think they can get away getting Singaporeans in Perth to do the dirty jobs for them.

 

[scroobal]

Bro, don't get me wrong. For some reason, your experience as a permanent employee in Singapore does not carry much weight as having Australian Permanent employment history in your CV.

I always advise new migrants to clock in permanent tenure even though it might be much lower grade in order to get that history in their CV before they go outside contracting or look for a permanent position that commensurates with their actual skills and experience. To an Australian, Singapore is a 3rd world country albeit the most advanced amongst the 3rd world. Australia has 10 nobel laurettes and 3 in this decade. Singapore has none.

You are now paying the price of not having secured an Australian permanent tenure in your CV or the opportunity to have done your networking in a secured environment.

Sorry to be blunt, but I recall that you were complaining about Indians in Singapore which I agree was cheap labour. Now in Brisbane, you are complaining about them Indians again. The last I looked, IT departments in Australia are pretty much white territory.

Put yourself in the shoe of an Australian Employer or an Head Hunter in Australia. Don't you think that they would recommend someone with prior permanent experience from a 1st world country. Look at the list below and based on equal skills and background, who do you think an Australian employer will offer contracts to.

1) Australian/PR White with prior permanent tenure in Australia
2) Australian/PR Asian with prior permanent tenure in Australia
3) Pommie with prior permanent tenure in Londo in Australia
4) Australian/PR Asian with no prior permanent tenure in Australia but in Singapore.

I am not doubting your skills, your ethics or your commitment. You took a shortcut and you now paying the price. You will get there, but it will take longer than most.

In engineering and where vocations requires Industry accredidation by law, you will not smell an engineering contracting terms on an hourly basis unless you have prior permanent tenure in a 1st world country. The only contracts available in such vocations are those that based on fixed wages or temp jobs.

it is not a mistake to go into contracting as i have the past experiences and certifications. DB is DB regardless of where u go, it is the communication skills that is the main hinderance. I had worked with bigger systems that are more expensive and complicated as compared to these simpler ones in Oz. If u are singaporean and u have two CVs; one is a singaporean and the other is an indian FT, who will u choose? Unless the later has a skill in a field that is so unique, it is impossible for u not to hire the local singaporean over the indian IT professional. i wont limit my skillset nor my expectation, and like i said before, some singaporeans will try to hinder your aspiration by putting psychological barrier and limitation on your abilities. Yes, your advice is of good intent, but the background of how u derive it are still based on what PAP had done to us throughout the years and that is to put down the capabilities of the citizens. i appreciate it but i disagree with your opinion on this.

As far as the comparison between the permies and contractors, as i had worked mostly in bigger organisation and public sectors, most of the permie will disappear before 5pm, and very few are willing to work overtime and over weekend. the contractors like us carry the burden of doing the works, test out the implementation and once everything is ok, we hand over to the permie and spoonfeed them. maybe this is different in sydney and melb. im not sure.

performance appraisal? here in public sector? u have to be joking. they have no concept of SLA, KPI, and PA. zero, nada, there is no such thing as business continuity plan, no disaster recovery procedure, yes, im flabbergasted and shocked. But who am i to tell the management about this?

Sensitive data? well.. i wont go into details on this due to the type of data that im handling now.

 

[Leongsam]

Agree with you and thats why Singaporeans with their English education tend to be marketable.

You means "Singlish" education don't you. Very few sinkies speak English nowadays.

 

[scroobal]

Those with Singlish seldom make the journey across and if they do, the lack of singlish forces them to change their language use. However Singapore habits other than language like kiasuium are hard to get rid off.

You means "Singlish" education don't you. Very few sinkies speak English nowadays.

 

[fishbuff]

hahaha, the scots are slightly better, because no one can understand their whineing in their thick accent.

have you noticed that the poms tend to be panicky when things go wrong. serve them right for taking on more than they should.

... and then, there are those who have had a good expat life in Singapore before coming over to Perth. They think they can get away getting Singaporeans in Perth to do the dirty jobs for them.

they always consider singapore as an ex-colony of her majesty's empire. despite their whingeness, i still like to talk to them, they are pretty street smart and prudent.

Wei, I am warning you.. do not spoil the market leh ! Work-life-balance ? What is the reason for us to come here ? to make lots of $$$ or family bond ? Err.. I have no objection if you can have both

bo pian, alot of work for me to do and most of them can only be done on weekends and after office hours. also have deadline to meet, i dont mind the work as im paid for OT but travelling back on public transport at night can be quite a harrowing experiences. All those white trashes and abos will start asking me for money whenever i walk past them.

 

[IWC2006]

So the flip side is that perm chap is not so good at networking does not take the trouble to build up his "guru" status via knowledge etc. Thus the price premium.differential in the remuneration scale exist.

So what was wrong with my posts.

Put it simply, perm staff looks for career advancement, he doesn't want to be a Oracle DBA forever. I have contract staff tired of doing contractor and they aspire to become a Project Manager or Architect role, thus accepting a lower pay to become perm but moving towards that direction. Overtime, their salary catchup or even better then they were doing contracting.

Contract staff have specialised skills the market needs (could be short or long term) but their job scope is more static. Some don't mind to work 20 years in the same role as a developer drawing good rates, but this is as far as they can go. People who want flexibility, higher salaries and not long term commitment with the same firm fit this category U don't see a contract developer today and hire as a Project Manager the next day.

Contractors with very unique skills of course will command even higher rates, perm is not in their cards, they can become consultants if they like. However, unique skills can also become mainstream one day.

Bottomline, we are all the about the same. Its the choice leading to the roadmap where you want to be.

 

[scroobal]

I was just asking why you think that a company is prepared to pay a contract DBA up to $100/per hr and nowhere close to a perm staff who does the exact same job.

Agree with the rest of the comments below which I am well aware of and pretty much common sense.

Put it simply, perm staff looks for career advancement, he doesn't want to be a Oracle DBA forever. I have contract staff tired of doing contractor and they aspire to become a Project Manager or Architect role, thus accepting a lower pay to become perm but moving towards that direction. Overtime, their salary catchup or even better then they were doing contracting.

Contract staff have specialised skills the market needs (could be short or long term) but their job scope is more static. Some don't mind to work 20 years in the same role as a developer drawing good rates, but this is as far as they can go. People who want flexibility, higher salaries and not long term commitment with the same firm fit this category U don't see a contract developer today and hire as a Project Manager the next day.

Contractors with very unique skills of course will command even higher rates, perm is not in their cards, they can become consultants if they like. However, unique skills can also become mainstream one day.

Bottomline, we are all the about the same. Its the choice leading to the roadmap where you want to be.

 

[IWC2006]

Agree with you on the first para. Any way, I don't think its about being asians in your case as asians are very well regarded in IT for their skills and work ethics. Many firms will pick an Asian especially a singaporean.

In your case, you made the mistake of going straight into contracting. If you check with other Asians, they would have started as perm first, drop anchor, build reputation and build network. I think I told you this before. The CV is very important. The IT head will be crucified if the DBA contractor stuffs up or sabotages the DB and they find out that he had no prior permanent tenure in Australia. The issue can be mitigated if the IT head can say that he has previously worked in HSBC in Sydney like IWC2006 so everything was above board. Having worked at HSBC in Sydney in a perm position for a number of years is a powerful statement in any CV.

I know many firms will not hire a high end contactor that has no perm employment track record because of the lack of due diligence in the character space. If you worked as a perm for 3 to 5 years, you would have undergone solid performance appraisal which counts a lot. Dbases are sensitive and commercially important thus it becomes even more acute to be careful.

It will take time, but it will take longer in your case. Just be positive during interviews.

I don't neccessary agree with your argument.

Firstly, for a new migrant to the country with no track record('Australian experience'), its easier to land a contract job then perm. As u said, its easier to get rid of a contractor if a firm hires a bad bag as its lower risk for them. For new comers, this might be a good starting point.

Again, you are seeing just one side of the equation. Contract staff though are more expensive to hire but in medium to long term is even for taxing to keep a perm staff and all the overhead costs (training, bonus, increment, office cost, insurance etc. associate with maintaining a perm staff). There's also a layoff cost to pay when a firm decides to retrench.

I have come across many candidates(be it immigrant or locals) have been contracting for years and never work as a perm in their life. As long they prove they are good and contracting at least 2 years with the same firm - they are fine. Australia has a small job market, word comes around who's good or not is just a phone call away.

Therefore, there is no hard and fast rules to start with a perm then convert to contractors. If you are good, you'll good, be it perm or contractor.

 

[IWC2006]

I was just asking why you think that a company is prepared to pay a contract DBA up to $100/per hr and nowhere close to a perm staff who does the exact same job.

Agree with the rest of the comments below which I am well aware of and pretty much common sense.

Again, you keep talking about the rates per hour. There's cost associated with hiring a perm staff should not be ignored. It might work up about the same (though the pay component to employee is much less), talk to a HR professional and you will get more insight.

Why pay more? Many reasons -

1) Fill up a project position which needs to be addressed quickly.
2) No headcount to hire a perm. Easier to justify hiring a contractor and quicker to get approval.
3) Specialised skillset can't get from existing pool.
4) Someone to be 'blamed', contractor is a good target if things do not work up. No string attached, hire and fire easily ( I have seen this happened b4 by the way)

Bottomline, no hiring managers would want to keep a expensive contractor for long, sooner or later the senior executive will go after him to reduce cost. (unless they have absolutely no choice). During downtime, contractors are told to lower their rates or keep the rates the same. Perm still get some increment and bonus.

Is it better to be a contractor or perm - up to you to judge?

If its in london, gaps between contractors and perms are so much more, then is worth to be a contractor. in OZ, contractors and perm gap are not a lot, minus gov job which pays by rank.

 

[IWC2006]

Bro, don't get me wrong. For some reason, your experience as a permanent employee in Singapore does not carry much weight as having Australian Permanent employment history in your CV.

I always advise new migrants to clock in permanent tenure even though it might be much lower grade in order to get that history in their CV before they go outside contracting or look for a permanent position that commensurates with their actual skills and experience. To an Australian, Singapore is a 3rd world country albeit the most advanced amongst the 3rd world. Australia has 10 nobel laurettes and 3 in this decade. Singapore has none.

You are now paying the price of not having secured an Australian permanent tenure in your CV or the opportunity to have done your networking in a secured environment.

Sorry to be blunt, but I recall that you were complaining about Indians in Singapore which I agree was cheap labour. Now in Brisbane, you are complaining about them Indians again. The last I looked, IT departments in Australia are pretty much white territory.

Put yourself in the shoe of an Australian Employer or an Head Hunter in Australia. Don't you think that they would recommend someone with prior permanent experience from a 1st world country. Look at the list below and based on equal skills and background, who do you think an Australian employer will offer contracts to.

1) Australian/PR White with prior permanent tenure in Australia
2) Australian/PR Asian with prior permanent tenure in Australia
3) Pommie with prior permanent tenure in Londo in Australia
4) Australian/PR Asian with no prior permanent tenure in Australia but in Singapore.

I am not doubting your skills, your ethics or your commitment. You took a shortcut and you now paying the price. You will get there, but it will take longer than most.

In engineering and where vocations requires Industry accredidation by law, you will not smell an engineering contracting terms on an hourly basis unless you have prior permanent tenure in a 1st world country. The only contracts available in such vocations are those that based on fixed wages or temp jobs.

Sorry I have to disagree with you again. Its difference from city to city. Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane are the backward backbone of the old Australia and still is today. They may see Singapore as 3rd class because naturally managers there are insecure and feel threaten with the 'new world' economy.( they can't get pass the colonial mindset)

Melb or Sydney (especially the competitive financial industry) - firms are hunger for talents and Singapore has become a standout along with experience from Hong Kong, Tokyo, London or New York. Many MNC banks have moved their backoffice to Singapore (thanks to the PAP aggressive banking hub plan) thus no longer Singapore is perceived as 3rd world. Employers heard it, recruiters as well. Also, because many of the Senior Managers/hiring managers here are born overseas, they have international mindset. Especially Sydney there's so many foreigners working here , local Aussies have become a minority. Look at my IT department at least 70% are foreigners/immigrants from all over the world.

I don't believe Fishbuff have made a wrong choice starting as a contractor. I just think he has stucked too long in the backward Queensland - a good tourist spot but bad for career advancement coming from a developed nation.