Issue of Homosexual Rights is not going to go away.

[Ah Guan]

do AWARE protect bitches involved in adultery? if they do becos adulteress bitches are women, then adultery is NOT a sin and the husbands are left clueless in greenhats. now, that's not very fair isn't it?

maybe men should start a counter all-men group: AMEN or Action for Men of Explicit Needs.:p

Fuck off and start your own all-gay group lah pervert

 

[leetahbar]

many do not realise that something in the crappy world is not very right. the bible is also not very right.

if GOD created man and eve, then why there was a STEVE? and it started the whole homo thingy.

next look at the angels. do they look like man or woman more? neither right. they look more like STEVE again!! so the homo wheel gayfully rolls along since GENESIS. :p

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

actually i think there is a chap, quite a senior lawyer who has been crossing swords with the Aware old guard feminists for donkey years now...goes by the name of Wong Hoong Hooi

do AWARE protect bitches involved in adultery? if they do becos adulteress bitches are women, then adultery is NOT a sin and the husbands are left clueless in greenhats. now, that's not very fair isn't it?

maybe men should start a counter all-men group: AMEN or Action for Men of Explicit Needs.:p

 

[scroobal]

There are 3 people that I found conspicuous by their absence - Wong Hoong Hooi, Claire Chiang and Zaibun Siraj.

It would have been good for past leaders to say their piece whether for or against and if they found the direction set in recent years good.

actually i think there is a chap, quite a senior lawyer who has been crossing swords with the Aware old guard feminists for donkey years now...goes by the name of Wong Hoong Hooi

 

[londontrader]

TeeKee,

You're behaving like a very angry gay man who can't accept his disposition for dicks and assholes. It's time to leave the closet and face the world. Don't worry because Derek Hong will pray for you

Cheers

how many times must i tell u people...homo where got right? why 377 is still there??

if it is God's word that motivate them to do the things they do, how can they be misguided?

you are once again bias in saying they are misguided. if they believed AWARE has been supporting and expanding gay & lez rights, of course it is natural for them to do what they have been expected to do...

the issue not anti-gay...but anti-growing gay voices and influence into our society...

only people who believed in themselves or men will be clueless where they are heading..worse using secular interests as a front for growing homosexual voices..

the future is bleak for our country...so what's new?

 

[londontrader]

Yes. I hope the LGBT gang do not think that it a victory for them or the support for the old guards is translated as support for the LGBT cause.

That is an unfortunate spillover from the cat fight. The homosexual lobby are already claiming this as their victory (refer to their blogs and websites). The pro homo label (framed by Thio Su Mien etc.) has stuck. AWARE had better make their position clear in the coming months.

I think we agreed (in an earlier discussion) that Singaporeans are not matured enough to handle this in a civil manner.

 

[londontrader]

There are 3 people that I found conspicuous by their absence - Wong Hoong Hooi, Claire Chiang and Zaibun Siraj.

It would have been good for past leaders to say their piece whether for or against and if they found the direction set in recent years good.

I think Claire has a lot on her plate lately
Her business hasn't navigated the financial crisis too well!

 

[scroobal]

I was afraid of that. I do agree that AWARE should make their stand very clear. My understanding is that MOE is expected to meet with AWARE in order to make their stand clear as anxious parents need to be pacified.

The gay lobby must be delusional to think that this is a victory or a step forward for them.

I hope the pro-family group form a lobby to ensure that a balanced discussion takes place in a public space. I know that Singaporeans kiasuness to be politically correct, be thought of as fashionably liberal will deter some as the stigma of being homophobic can be trying.

Failing which, abortion induced tsumani fighting zealots and their sheep might emerge again smearing one and all in the name of god.

That is an unfortunate spillover from the cat fight. The homosexual lobby are already claiming this as their victory (refer to their blogs and websites). The pro homo label (framed by Thio Su Mien etc.) has stuck. AWARE had better make their position clear in the coming months.

I think we agreed (in an earlier discussion) that Singaporeans are not matured enough to handle this in a civil manner.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Scroobal

The pro family lobby is not I believe ready for a sensible discussion in any form because their position is absolute, unrelenting and uncompromising.

Take away the packaging, more and less polite words calls for working together and the following shines through. This is of course with reference to the American evangelical right political and social lobbying model which might work in America with differing church going demographics but not I believe in Singapore and its basic survival need for secularism.

1. Pro Family means , Pro Life, Pro Abstinence, and Anti Homosexuality. Their position is consistent coherent and is being reflected in the private views and actions of Thio Su Mien and her adherents. Note the latest news on her belief that SG allowing abortion caused the SARS crisis to hit SG.

2. It was the influence of Claire on AWARE which I believe allowed some Pro Abstinence values to be taught along side the comprehensive sexuality education. That is teach kids about condoms, their own innate sexuality, contraception including abortion etc etc but recommend saying sex for marriage or a long term relationship. In essence a sensible abstinence if you choose to, but if you do not hey are the facts and how sex should work within marriage and or a relationship.


3. The cries of the parents enraged by the AWARE saga surprises me to no end. Firstly where were all these idiots when the courses were being taught ? Secondly some resent their kids being taught that sex is pleasurable .........God save us from teachings that masturbation causes blindness.


4. Finally any acceptance on the part of society whether civil service, education, accepting gays, is for these xtians a slippery step on the road to gay marriage and gay unions to be subject to the utmost moral christian condemnation.

I can't for one understand the hypocrisy of such a position. COOS preaches that gays should not be discriminated against when it comes to unemployment but cannot accept the civil service setting a tone for employers at large in accepting gays

They preach that they hate the sin but love the sinner but in the same breathe will preach conversion therapy for homosexuals which has been repudiated by all medical professionals

They profess that homosexuality is a sin and not normal yet BASIC christianity defines man as fallen from grace and a sinner by definition and thus sin is normal.

They preach love the sinner hate the sin, but preach so much morality that sometimes hating the SIN becomes all encompassing and loving the sinner becomes a hypocritical afterthought.




Locke

 

[scroobal]

I got to say that it was truly a good piece by you below. Thanks for the clarification. Looks like the pro-family dogma is basically a template with no leeway.

I guess we got to use a term such as "family" lobby rather than pro-family as the latter has been captured by fundamentalist and extremists.

And your point about the missing parents is spot on. For some reason, they seem to have abdicated their parental role and seem to think that the School provides education plus values. Granted some values are expected to be imparted but its the parents that are key.

Maybe the secularist should get together and form an association or club where kindness, respect, tolerance, reciprocity, community consciousness, common sense etc are encouraged. Open to all denominations, athesist, followers of the sun, moon and what not but no religious activity to take place.

Do social work, vet work of charities, play sports and retire to the local pub for bit of darts, a pint and snacks.

In time, we might even consider nominating an MP to cover our interest and keep the nutcases, the blind, the gullible, the sheep and the dumb honest and straight.

Dear Scroobal

The pro family lobby is not I believe ready for a sensible discussion in any form because their position is absolute, unrelenting and uncompromising.

Take away the packaging, more and less polite words calls for working together and the following shines through. This is of course with reference to the American evangelical right political and social lobbying model which might work in America with differing church going demographics but not I believe in Singapore and its basic survival need for secularism.

1. Pro Family means , Pro Life, Pro Abstinence, and Anti Homosexuality. Their position is consistent coherent and is being reflected in the private views and actions of Thio Su Mien and her adherents. Note the latest news on her belief that SG allowing abortion caused the SARS crisis to hit SG.

2. It was the influence of Claire on AWARE which I believe allowed some Pro Abstinence values to be taught along side the comprehensive sexuality education. That is teach kids about condoms, their own innate sexuality, contraception including abortion etc etc but recommend saying sex for marriage or a long term relationship. In essence a sensible abstinence if you choose to, but if you do not hey are the facts and how sex should work within marriage and or a relationship.


3. The cries of the parents enraged by the AWARE saga surprises me to no end. Firstly where were all these idiots when the courses were being taught ? Secondly some resent their kids being taught that sex is pleasurable .........God save us from teachings that masturbation causes blindness.


4. Finally any acceptance on the part of society whether civil service, education, accepting gays, is for these xtians a slippery step on the road to gay marriage and gay unions to be subject to the utmost moral christian condemnation.

I can't for one understand the hypocrisy of such a position. COOS preaches that gays should not be discriminated against when it comes to unemployment but cannot accept the civil service setting a tone for employers at large in accepting gays

They preach that they hate the sin but love the sinner but in the same breathe will preach conversion therapy for homosexuals which has been repudiated by all medical professionals

They profess that homosexuality is a sin and not normal yet BASIC christianity defines man as fallen from grace and a sinner by definition and thus sin is normal.

They preach love the sinner hate the sin, but preach so much morality that sometimes hating the SIN becomes all encompassing and loving the sinner becomes a hypocritical afterthought.




Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

zaibun was there with pink hair...wong hoong hooi, well i think he was wise to give this one a wide berth given his background...the real curious one is claire chiang's deafening silence...was she even at suntec??

There are 3 people that I found conspicuous by their absence - Wong Hoong Hooi, Claire Chiang and Zaibun Siraj.

It would have been good for past leaders to say their piece whether for or against and if they found the direction set in recent years good.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

looks like the government has capitulated to fear mongering afterall by pulling the plug on Aware's CSE programme...can't say i am all that surprised really...in fact i am surprised the old guard won the vote on sat because i got the impression that the pro family bloc was going to turn up in full force...looks like alot of behind the scenes stuff going on...government reaches a compromise of sorts on both sides...old guard get's back Aware while the pro family bloc's LGBT concern is also addressed...

I was afraid of that. I do agree that AWARE should make their stand very clear. My understanding is that MOE is expected to meet with AWARE in order to make their stand clear as anxious parents need to be pacified.

The gay lobby must be delusional to think that this is a victory or a step forward for them.

I hope the pro-family group form a lobby to ensure that a balanced discussion takes place in a public space. I know that Singaporeans kiasuness to be politically correct, be thought of as fashionably liberal will deter some as the stigma of being homophobic can be trying.

Failing which, abortion induced tsumani fighting zealots and their sheep might emerge again smearing one and all in the name of god.

 

[londontrader]

looks like the government has capitulated to fear mongering afterall by pulling the plug on Aware's CSE programme...can't say i am all that surprised really...in fact i am surprised the old guard won the vote on sat because i got the impression that the pro family bloc was going to turn up in full force...looks like alot of behind the scenes stuff going on...government reaches a compromise of sorts on both sides...old guard get's back Aware while the pro family bloc's LGBT concern is also addressed...

Been waiting for this announcement

I think they are sending a message to the excessively vocal elements amongst the gay community ie. keep your heads down!
Afterall, politics = compromise

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

locke,

i think the pro family card goes way beyond COOS and even christians...it appears to cut across all groups be it race, religion or gender...i tell you the LGBT bloc cannot win on this one based on present ground realities, for the time being at least...unfortunate and regrettable perhaps but there you have it...read Willie Cheng's perspective on the Aware saga in ST 6/5 Review "Examine content and process"...Willie's view seems to reflect the conservative majority singgie pov...hence i am not surprised to learn of MOE's latest action pulling the plug on Aware's CSE programme...

Dear Scroobal

The pro family lobby is not I believe ready for a sensible discussion in any form because their position is absolute, unrelenting and uncompromising.

Take away the packaging, more and less polite words calls for working together and the following shines through. This is of course with reference to the American evangelical right political and social lobbying model which might work in America with differing church going demographics but not I believe in Singapore and its basic survival need for secularism.

1. Pro Family means , Pro Life, Pro Abstinence, and Anti Homosexuality. Their position is consistent coherent and is being reflected in the private views and actions of Thio Su Mien and her adherents. Note the latest news on her belief that SG allowing abortion caused the SARS crisis to hit SG.

2. It was the influence of Claire on AWARE which I believe allowed some Pro Abstinence values to be taught along side the comprehensive sexuality education. That is teach kids about condoms, their own innate sexuality, contraception including abortion etc etc but recommend saying sex for marriage or a long term relationship. In essence a sensible abstinence if you choose to, but if you do not hey are the facts and how sex should work within marriage and or a relationship.


3. The cries of the parents enraged by the AWARE saga surprises me to no end. Firstly where were all these idiots when the courses were being taught ? Secondly some resent their kids being taught that sex is pleasurable .........God save us from teachings that masturbation causes blindness.


4. Finally any acceptance on the part of society whether civil service, education, accepting gays, is for these xtians a slippery step on the road to gay marriage and gay unions to be subject to the utmost moral christian condemnation.

I can't for one understand the hypocrisy of such a position. COOS preaches that gays should not be discriminated against when it comes to unemployment but cannot accept the civil service setting a tone for employers at large in accepting gays

They preach that they hate the sin but love the sinner but in the same breathe will preach conversion therapy for homosexuals which has been repudiated by all medical professionals

They profess that homosexuality is a sin and not normal yet BASIC christianity defines man as fallen from grace and a sinner by definition and thus sin is normal.

They preach love the sinner hate the sin, but preach so much morality that sometimes hating the SIN becomes all encompassing and loving the sinner becomes a hypocritical afterthought.




Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

For the time being at least i don't think it shall help when it comes to the LGBT issue...this one is a real hot potato i tell you...with singgie parents in general...

I.

Maybe the secularist should get together and form an association or club where kindness, respect, tolerance, reciprocity, community consciousness, common sense etc are encouraged. Open to all denominations, athesist, followers of the sun, moon and what not but no religious activity to take place.

Do social work, vet work of charities, play sports and retire to the local pub for bit of darts, a pint and snacks.

In time, we might even consider nominating an MP to cover our interest and keep the nutcases, the blind, the gullible, the sheep and the dumb honest and straight.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Por

Please read the objections of the now defunct old AWARE and lets see the end results of the NEW vetting process.....since the old VETTING PROCESS was fine with the program. Please read the excerpt below from the OLD AWARE reading of the CSE and their pro family objections. Btw all these pro family people seem bent on ignoring the torrent of information on sexuality their kids can get on the net and which they can't stop, Its sad really seeing them trying to hold back information which they can't.

1. MM said that Homosexuality was normal. In that regards AWARE was not the trend setter but the government was. The government will have to decide its view and what is best for society at large.

2. The government will also have to decide whether a neutral stance in anything promotes any sort of behavior and who should be teaching morals, family church or the state

3. Mind you I am tickled by MOE stating the concern that some current CSE trainning might promote pre marital sex. I take it based on letters I read that kids should not be told that "orgasms" and "sex" is pleasurable another objection of the now old aware crowd on another page. If sex is not pleasurable and orgasms not good then why do we ADULTS FRAK and fornicate all the way from geylang to Batam and JB. If kids have to be taught then let them be taught the facts because if you censor the facts THEY will learn of it from the internet or from the own two hands. Wait perhaps they should teach masturbation will cause blindness.

4. I believe that MOE or the parents had no objection to the teachings on contraception HIV and STD. I hope the pro family crowd does not go down the road of abstinence only or no pre marital sex teaching and stop teaching on contraception and abortion.
Hopeful but I would not be surprised.

5. Anal Sex as normal if safe, pre marital sex as neutral. Firstly anal sex is as much a hetrosexual and a homosexual practice. And secondly if the program is meant to provide information and not values should it not be as neutral as possible


"The following are statements about each word that trainers can use to explain why
the words should be in this particular category.
1. Anal sex – can be " healthy or neutral " if practiced with consent and
with a condom.
Pre-marital sex – people might place pre-marital sex as negative,
but it is really" neutral ". The key is whether the couple is aware of
the consequences and responsibilities and is ready for them. Sex
with girls under 14 with or without consent, is considered as
statutory rape. Sex with girls under 16, with or without consent,
is considered as carnal connection.”
Homosexual – people have different preferences for their partners.
Homosexuality is perfectly normal.
Comment to readers: "That homosexuality is normal is still being debated.
However, the CSE presents only a single view. “Neutral” suggests “ok”.
Why is sex practice taught and promoted to this age group if sex with girls
under 16 is illegal? "

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Por and Scroobal

I can't help but raise a wry smile at MOE's commentary and press statement as it seems to address every concern raised by Josie her Husband and TSM and her Tanglin Fellowship gang.

Firstly Dr Chin's allegations against the promotion of homosexuality as part of a social discussion group for GP was dismissed as the nonsense it is

The larger part of MOE's statement reiterates word for word the position taken by MM Josie and Aware and reading inbetween the lines was done because if Josie's release of the CSE programme training notes which lead to an outcry or debate whether manufactured or real and hence the NEW vetting process since the old one passed the program in its original form.

Homosexuality

Objection resides in the wording that it is "normal " with none of the moral indignation and condemnation which they and the conservative society they represent feel.

Firstly AWARE did not start the "normal" game. None other I believe than MM quite a long long while back took the first step by stating that he felt that Homosexuality was normal and influenced by Genes

Something along the lines of this should satisfy both camps

" Major medical and Pschyiatric associations do not consider homosexuality as an illness but rather an evolving state which results from a combination of genetic, environmental and social factors and is considered normal. Major religions like Islam and Christianity find Homosexuality wrong and not normal whilst Buddihism finds it natural. "

With regards to Pre Marital Sex..........

" Pre Marital Sex is discourage by many religions but here are the precautions you should take if you take part in it ." should I believe satisfy all but the most blind prophetic morons

With Regards to teaching that sex is pleasurable

" Ok kids, its fun and pleasurable to have sex but we are not allowed to teach you that but you can probably find that out yourself with a mouse click and your right hand or fingers. "

Do note that the statement speaks little of changing the major bits of the program, including education on contraception, abortion, saying no. As long as that stays in at least the kids are getting armed with the facts. In that regards noting Thio's strong objection to abortion as well.....I do wonder if she will start campaigning MOE that the teaching of contraception causes wanton Pre Marital Sex........



Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Locke,

like i said previously...once the LGBT card is raised regardless of whether it is perception or reality...the majority conservative Singgie appears to get uncomfortable, more so if it involves their children...objectivity is somehow lost...just looked at Willie Cheng's pov below which I think is pretty much representative of majority conservative singgie...


"...The new guard had been careful to differentiate between accepting homosexuals and homosexual acts - love the person, but do not condone his acts. But this distinction was lost amid accusations that the new guard consisted of the Christian right and lacked diversity...

Nevertheless, regardless of how Aware may explain its stance on inclusiveness and homosexuality, it is hard for it to justify the content of its CSE programme for schools. Being liberal is one thing; but teaching young people that anal sex and homosexuality are normal, healthy and acceptable is just not acceptable to most parents.

That homosexual acts remain illegal in Singapore should be sufficient grounds for MOE, let alone Aware, not to proceed with such course content. In my opinion, MOE has yet to fully account for its support of aware's sexuality programme in its current form..." Willie Cheng "Examine content and process" ST 6/5 Review

Ironically Dr Thio and Pastor Hong must be having a good laugh now because it now looks like though they lost the battle they have in fact won the war...for now at least...when it comes to the raw crude democratic process of majority rule...pro family (regardless of the religious bent) shall invariably trump LGBT in singapore's context today...that is the reality of the numbers game...in fact i was just looking at the 'old' new exco's interview post getting booted out on the 2nd...and jenica or lois raised the point of what happened to the remaining 900 Aware members who did not attend the eogm (3,000-2100 odd who attended)?...well but for the Christian right's apparent sinister clandestine actions i think the 'missing' 900 would have attended the eogm and probably voted for josie and her pussycats because of their pro family stance...

Dear Por and Scroobal

I can't help but raise a wry smile at MOE's commentary and press statement as it seems to address every concern raised by Josie her Husband and TSM and her Tanglin Fellowship gang.

Firstly Dr Chin's allegations against the promotion of homosexuality as part of a social discussion group for GP was dismissed as the nonsense it is

The larger part of MOE's statement reiterates word for word the position taken by MM Josie and Aware and reading inbetween the lines was done because if Josie's release of the CSE programme training notes which lead to an outcry or debate whether manufactured or real and hence the NEW vetting process since the old one passed the program in its original form.

Homosexuality

Objection resides in the wording that it is "normal " with none of the moral indignation and condemnation which they and the conservative society they represent feel.

Firstly AWARE did not start the "normal" game. None other I believe than MM quite a long long while back took the first step by stating that he felt that Homosexuality was normal and influenced by Genes

Something along the lines of this should satisfy both camps

" Major medical and Pschyiatric associations do not consider homosexuality as an illness but rather an evolving state which results from a combination of genetic, environmental and social factors and is considered normal. Major religions like Islam and Christianity find Homosexuality wrong and not normal whilst Buddihism finds it natural. "

With regards to Pre Marital Sex..........

" Pre Marital Sex is discourage by many religions but here are the precautions you should take if you take part in it ." should I believe satisfy all but the most blind prophetic morons

With Regards to teaching that sex is pleasurable

" Ok kids, its fun and pleasurable to have sex but we are not allowed to teach you that but you can probably find that out yourself with a mouse click and your right hand or fingers. "

Do note that the statement speaks little of changing the major bits of the program, including education on contraception, abortion, saying no. As long as that stays in at least the kids are getting armed with the facts. In that regards noting Thio's strong objection to abortion as well.....I do wonder if she will start campaigning MOE that the teaching of contraception causes wanton Pre Marital Sex........



Locke