Investing in Singaporean Babies & the Country's long term future

[kingrant]

You certainly marched all the way to Christchurch NZ, I can see, and walked out of his Singapore. But those who could not but stayed, had to keep up with getting into Kindergarten when you find that yr classmates are already advanced in math and reading, you have to up and move near to choice schools to make sure yr child gets to the best school or risks losing behind, etc. There's no such thing as quietly going about yr own business when yr competitor starts hiring cheapo labour, or starts snogging with the MP..not in Singapore..

I marched to my own drum beat. I didn't tell him off to his face. Tyrants don't take kindly to acts of defiance. I just quietly went about my own business based on what I thought was important to me.

 

[kingrant]

For as long as I remember,I had to struggle. I too knew that nothing was for free. I succeeded only to find that I couldnt own even a humble Jap car because of the COE, I couldnt afford that 5 room because of the COV, let alone dream of that landed property. I was told my wages cant go up if I dont work at the pace of two, last as long as three, and be cheaper than that foreigner. So if I don't cut down on having more children, I would be pushing carts with cardboard boxes or cleaning tables.

I lived through this era. LKY molded my work ethic. I worked hard because I knew that nothing was for free and nothing could be taken for granted.

LKY never told me that once I had succeeded in life, I needed a Merc or a Beemer to announce to the world what a success I was. The people who laughed at the crap car that I drove were my peers. I chose to ignore them secure in the knowledge that my bank account was healthy. Had I succumbed, I couldn't have retired when I did.

 

[Char_Azn]

In Singapore, it's all about flaunting it when you have it. Red carpet entrances for premium customers, credit cards that tell the world you've made it in life, clubs memberships that suggest you must be a multi millionaire if you have a parking sticker. The PAP didn't create all this. Singaporeans impose this class distinction game on each other.

Like I said it's about the mindset and lifestyle choices. No one is stopping 1 parent from working part time, the vast majority of Singaporeans can get by with 1 full time income earner(no don't take my word for it, SDP was the one that calculated a family of 4 can survive on 2.5K) and 1 working part time yet you will almost never find such a scenario play out in SG.

The government doesn't get it, and apparently Scroobal doesn't get it as well. Throwing money, giving them safety nets, more leave etc, may help bump up the birthrate slightly, but that will never resolve the issue at its very core. The main cause of the problem is change in the way my generation think what the government needs to do is change they way how a generation of pple think. So far, NO GOVERNMENT in the developed world have managed to buck the trend. Even Scandinavia countries which have been considered a model of increasing birthrates are still way below the magic number of 2.1 replacement rate

 

[Char_Azn]

For as long as I remember,I had to struggle. I too knew that nothing was for free. I succeeded only to find that I couldnt own even a humble Jap car because of the COE, I couldnt afford that 5 room because of the COV, let alone dream of that landed property. I was told my wages cant go up if I dont work at the pace of two, last as long as three, and be cheaper than that foreigner. So if I don't cut down on having more children, I would be pushing carts with cardboard boxes or cleaning tables.

If you cant afford a 5room, buy a 4 room. If you cannot afford a car, take public transport, WTF is stopping you from living within your means. What Sam describe is exactly what you mentioned, pple sacrificing having children for material wealth

 

[kingrant]

Exactly what i meant. After working yr ass off, you cant even have a decent life, why bring up children in such a country? Jap car is not obscene wealth, Sam was talking abt a BEEM, Merc. Look at the mess in which our transport system is in today, surely a car is not too demanding.

easy for you to say, choices and lifestyle. In Australia or NZ, you can work 80% and still get 110% yield and outcome better than Singapore. That's why Sam marched to NZ.

If you cant afford a 5room, buy a 4 room. If you cannot afford a car, take public transport, WTF is stopping you from living within your means. What Sam describe is exactly what you mentioned, pple sacrificing having children for material wealth

 

[Char_Azn]

Exactly what i meant. After working yr ass off, you cant even have a decent life, why bring up children in such a country? Jap car is not obscene wealth, Sam was talking abt a BEEM, Merc. Look at the mess in which our transport system is in today, surely a car is not too demanding.

easy for you to say, choices and lifestyle. In Australia or NZ, you can work 80% and still get 110% yield and outcome better than Singapore. That's why Sam marched to NZ.

What is stopping you from living a simpler lifestyle. Cannot afford a car, take a bus. Cannot get a 5 rm flat, get a 4 rm. At the end of the day you are still complaining about material wealth.

And btw with fertility rate at 1.9, Australia is still below the replacement rate of 2.1.

 

[kingrant]

Then what are you working for if not lifestyle and material wealth? I am talking about basic material wants, a basic lifestyle. Is the bus system efficient enough to not own a car? Of cos, one shld start off taking bus, but wont you move on to aspiring to own a car so as to be more comfortable and private esp if you have a child, you can do many more things in it than you can in a bus.

A car esp a Jap car is not anything opulent. One buys a car for its convenience - you have it when you want to go anywhere. I dont think anybody is crazy enough to think that a Jap car is a mark of arrival, material success. A car to many people is a basic need due to the vagaries of public transport. It is convenient to get to places not served by public transport, and where waiting for a taxi takes forever. It is convenient when you have lots of logistics to carry - if you have been a father, you will know what I mean.

So pls - some material needs. Not asking too much. Soemthings which you can easily get in Australia/NZ for the same basic wage level.

Nothing to stop me from living a simpler lifestyle. But it serves my point. In Singapore, you can't even get something basic that a comparable family in Aust/NZ can afford. So there you are -life's hard to have babies here.

What is stopping you from living a simpler lifestyle. Cannot afford a car, take a bus. Cannot get a 5 rm flat, get a 4 rm. At the end of the day you are still complaining about material wealth.

And btw with fertility rate at 1.9, Australia is still below the replacement rate of 2.1.

 

[kingrant]

You need to be intellectually honest to carry on a decent argument. You dont even believe in what you are saying.

No one is stopping 1 parent from working part time, the vast majority of Singaporeans can get by with 1 full time income earner

 

[Char_Azn]

You need to be intellectually honest to carry on a decent argument. You dont even believe in what you are saying.

Don't I? A relative of mine earning less then 1.2K a month(works part time), husband barely over 2.5K. 3 kids. What is stopping most pple from leading a simpler life again???

At the end of the day, it's about personal choices in life. More material wealth, go jiak hon every year, get a big house, a car, etc or give those up and have kids. My generation chose the former.

 

[kingrant]

Not sure which former choice you meant. If you mean we shld work our asses off just to have children for national service? Who is that insane? If the country is not right for you to have kids, why put yrself thru the grinder just to serve national service of replacement population?

Hence, it well supports my argument that this country is just not conducive to having and bringing up children. If you give up children for a simpler lifestyle for yourself but will be a big deal for the children, then it's well worth it and I'll agree with you. But I am not sure that if you sacrifice yr gen's lifestyle and then still cannot secure a decent future for yr children, then you might as well sacrifice having children for a better lifestyle. Half a loaf still better than none.

For yr info, my gen was able to have 2 kids, own a car, lived in a private exec 5 room all within 5 years of my first job. My wife and I were barely drawing a combined income of $3000. Today no couple can have that chance anymore. it's just not possible. Has Singapore's std of living improved? I think not. See? It's not about choices and lifestyles. It's about cost of living outstripping income levels due to bad govt.

Don't I? A relative of mine earning less then 1.2K a month(works part time), husband barely over 2.5K. 3 kids. What is stopping most pple from leading a simpler life again???

At the end of the day, it's about personal choices in life. More material wealth, go jiak hon every year, get a big house, a car, etc or give those up and have kids. My generation chose the former.

 

[Char_Azn]

Hello, Uncle your gen how many donkey years ago. Time change, inflation kicked in, wages went up and also generation gap. 20 years ago hardly anyone go on vacation. Nowadays pple my gen go vacation don't know how many donkey times a year. Everyone has luxury items like latest tech gadgets. Everyone like to have their own "space" to live in. Kids and marriage are low priority. Money has little to do with it. No wonder my message don't seem to get through to anyone, U guys don't seem to understand where we stand. Similarly the policies made by old folks from the government isn't going to change anything coz they do not understand why we are not choosing to make babies/form families. It's just like how my gen dun understand the kids and their sextings and other weird activity like planking and owling. U dun seem to understand my gen either. 20 years from now when my gen starts taking over the government and try to tackle this problem again, we'll go back to square one coz we have no idea what pple at that time thinks.

The most important point to all my post, the low birth rate has little to do with money. Throwing more money our way is not going to bump up the birthrate significant. It has everything to do with our current lifestyle and mindset. Unless someone comes up with a brilliant way of changing the way we think, there is no solution to this problem. U guys can talk and argue all you want, at the end of the day, the current gen of pple, more specifically my generation(pple in their late 20s to mid 30s) are the ones who are facing the issue of forming a family, we know us and we know why we are not doing it and quite frankly, money is not the main reason.

 

[kingrant]

Hello, shows how times have changed huh? Are you sure we people hardly went on vac? Donkey years ago, yr uncle here didnt just have kids etc but went round the world (really, US, Canada, NZ, Australia, Nepal, Taiwan, Japan, Europe) all within first 10-12 years of my first job. How;s that for lifestyle choice?

Our gen is a we've been there, done that gen. What's that you say about lifestyle choice that's new with yr gen that we cannot dig?

If the govt then had given me more money for my children, I'll gladly accept. Always can go for another vac or buy that new Galaxy S3 with my own spare change.

Hello, Uncle your gen how many donkey years ago. Time change, inflation kicked in, wages went up and also generation gap. 20 years ago hardly anyone go on vacation. Nowadays pple my gen go vacation don't know how many donkey times a year. Everyone has luxury items like latest tech gadgets. Everyone like to have their own "space" to live in. Kids and marriage are low priority. Money has little to do with it. No wonder my message don't seem to get through to anyone, U guys don't seem to understand where we stand. Similarly the policies made by old folks from the government isn't going to change anything coz they do not understand why we are not choosing to make babies/form families. It's just like how my gen dun understand the kids and their sextings and other weird activity like planking and owling. U dun seem to understand my gen either. 20 years from now when my gen starts taking over the government and try to tackle this problem again, we'll go back to square one coz we have no idea what pple at that time thinks.

The most important point to all my post, the low birth rate has little to do with money. Throwing more money our way is not going to bump up the birthrate significant. It has everything to do with our current lifestyle and mindset. Unless someone comes up with a brilliant way of changing the way we think, there is no solution to this problem. U guys can talk and argue all you want, at the end of the day, the current gen of pple, more specifically my generation(pple in their late 20s to mid 30s) are the ones who are facing the issue of forming a family, we know us and we know why we are not doing it and quite frankly, money is not the main reason.

 

[Leongsam]

You certainly marched all the way to Christchurch NZ, I can see, and walked out of his Singapore. But those who could not but stayed, had to keep up with getting into Kindergarten when you find that yr classmates are already advanced in math and reading, you have to up and move near to choice schools to make sure yr child gets to the best school or risks losing behind, etc. There's no such thing as quietly going about yr own business when yr competitor starts hiring cheapo labour, or starts snogging with the MP..not in Singapore..

I left AFTER my career was over and that chapter of my life was complete. My reason for leaving was simple... NZ had much better mountain biking trails.

While I was working in Singapore, I avoided all the trappings of success. I didn't even own a mobile phone till the company provided me with one. A good old pager did the job. No club memberships, no fancy car, no swanky holidays. All I did was save and invest every penny I could because I had one goal in mind and one alone... retirement before 40.

Anyone can do the same. All it requires is a bit of discipline and the ability to ignore peer pressure and ridicule.

 

[scroobal]

Its takes two to clap. I am not apportioning all the blame on the PAP. That is why I have spent most of my focus in the early years persuading people to leave the country and make a new life in a 1st world country if not for them then at least for their children.

If the mountain can't make it to Mohd then Mohd has to head to the mountains.

Unfortunately not everyone has the smarts or the ability to leave. Some are stranded because of their elderly parents. Others are waiting for the PAP to shine the torchlight to show the way. Life is such.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Did the PAP govt set the speed of the treadmill to "high" thus putting Singaporeans in the position that they now find themselves in?.... or did Singaporeans create their own nightmare by ranking wealth above family, friends and health in their mad pursuit to show their friends and their peers that they had "made it" in life.

.

 

[Leongsam]

Unfortunately not everyone has the smarts or the ability to leave. Some are stranded because of their elderly parents. Others are waiting for the PAP to shine the torchlight to show the way. Life is such.

I may be out of date as far as the rules are concerned but most the PRC immigrants in my neighborhood have brought their elderly parents with them.

Singaporeans find excuses NOT to emigrate. They like sounding gung ho with statements such as "If it wasn't for my parents, I'd leave this damned place!". What they actually mean is "I'd like to leave this place but I'm terrified of the unknown.".

 

[scroobal]

I know where you are coming from. Its not about qualifying but more that the parents are scared of the new place. Can't speak the lingo. And then you have those that are scared.

And you are probably right about the last sentence.

I may be out of date as far as the rules are concerned but most the PRC immigrants in my neighborhood have brought their elderly parents with them.

Singaporeans find excuses NOT to emigrate. They like sounding gung ho with statements such as "If it wasn't for my parents, I'd leave this damned place!". What they actually mean is "I'd like to leave this place but I'm terrified of the unknown.".

 

[Ash007]

Did your friends also laugh at you when you first bought your mac as well? Mine did, and now I know a lot that bought one later down the track.

I lived through this era. LKY molded my work ethic. I worked hard because I knew that nothing was for free and nothing could be taken for granted.

LKY never told me that once I had succeeded in life, I needed a Merc or a Beemer to announce to the world what a success I was. The people who laughed at the crap car that I drove were my peers. I chose to ignore them secure in the knowledge that my bank account was healthy. Had I succumbed, I couldn't have retired when I did.

 

[Leongsam]

speak the hard truth also cannot?

This is the politics section. It's for discussing the pros and cons of various policies. If you want to flame and harass, go to the other section.

 

[Leongsam]

Did your friends also laugh at you when you first bought your mac as well? Mine did, and now I know a lot that bought one later down the track.

You bet!... waste of money.. rip off.... no software.... can't play games... dying company.... lousy OS always crashing... no accessories... blah blah blah.

My crummy Mac with Photoshop, Pagemill and Illustrator installed was actually making me $5000 per month at the time so guess who had the last laugh. It was the only 3 software packages I needed to do 99% of my work.

 

[Checker]

It's the law of nature to compete. Animals show off how fit and strong they are in many ways, just as humans do. In a very densely populated SG, it's worse since everybody is so close by and everyone knows everyone else. If you don't keep up materially, you will feel terrible. The pain of being looked down on is not different from physical pain. If one is not even that sure of one's fitness to survive long-term, to pay for home, education, healthcare, children are a big burden.

There're probably ways to reduce the materialism. But I think they're long-term and may have to start with people valuing other achievements highly, not just money. Political office, arts & cultural achievements, intellectual contributions, need to be celebrated not for money they bring in, for example. But the highest political offices are still about money, so that sets the tone for celebrating materialism down the stream. Everybody then strives for that definition of "success" (except for a few outliers mentioned in this forum).