Investing in Singaporean Babies & the Country's long term future

[Fook Seng]

Ah Tiongs are used to one child families. Has the Govt done enough research?

 

[Silent88scope]

All the policies made by those MIWs are only quick fix solution based on short term gains.
They do not have the patience to wait for long term results.
Giving excuses of low birth rate to import tons of FTs is one of the easy way out quick fix to raise GDP growth which will make
all those rich and powerful happy all the time. The MIWs don't fuck care whether the locals are willing to give birth of not.
They will never be willing to put so much time and resources to nature the local babies. What they want is instant case $$$ to please those
rich and powerful plus getting their own pocket full. That's their aim and they won't bother too much about low life local S'poreans.

 

[kingrant]

Good point. Very revealing. But I think they came because there was so much oversell by the PAP govt, talking about how we can provide the connect between the West and China. That we are a good intermediate testing ground. maybe we will turn out that way - intermediate, and it is happening faster than expected. Now they think they can leapfrog.

Not sure if you guys had any PRC friends. But I think the Ah tiongs are starting to realised that Singapore is not a good destination either. I had a conversation with a PRC couple yesterday, and the conversation turned to me coming from Singapore. The wife asked why I left and the husband replied next that Singapore is too crowded and is not suitable for long term stay at all. I think the MIWs policy of opening the floodgate is reaching a point where the FTs are realising that it is not sustainable.

 

[scroobal]

Actually if you go thru it, you might realise the value in it. Imagine ordinary Singaporeans and PRs have the usual CPF. Only Singaporeans parents have an additional safety fund for their kids. They don't touch and its an add to their retirement fund. They can't use for their homes except for their kids education. Tan Cheng Bock proposed something similar but the kids education came from the CPF.

Even greedy adults may cave in and start having kids.

Its meant to be a joke, but having seen some of the insane policy they instituted I'm surprised they have not gone down this path. I don't think its the right approach though. SG problem of having low child birth rate is multiple. Its cultural as well, not just the social environment.

 

[scroobal]

Agree, once the framework is set up, the tweaking can to take place depending on the climate. At the moment, the govt puts this in the welfare basket and to them it is taboo.

To encourage right quality in numbers in the right groups, the baby allowance shld be tweaked so that it goes up exponentially from lowest in K, primary edu, to a steep peak towards University level.

Sucking taxes and levies for this fund from businesses that still depend on cheap labour and did nothing on productivity is the socially equitable way to go, besides making economic sense too.

 

[scroobal]

Somehow i sense that your personal-to-holder approach of using carrot and stick has merit. I do realise that in the past, it was one size fits all in some ways. To reward those who are pulling their weight and reduce perks for others is worth a go. The main point is not to use low childbirth to bring in cheap and questionable quality labour.

20 years ago, nearly no Indian or Chinese Uni degree is recognised. Mainly bribes, forged academic degrees etc. That situation has not changed. A Singaporean has no hope in hell in competitng with these guys. Our standards in schools are so strict, you can't pull this stunt.

Instead of using the 1.2 as holy writ, why don't focus on the group that refuse to have children? Hit them where it hurt them most. As for Chinese no giving birth, I find it hard to believe as most of my peer have children. While some have only one but most have two and a few have three. So who are no pulling their weight?

As for Malays breeding like rabbit, it the true in the past but nowadays Malays couple who have education and not caught the religion bug know the advantage of small family so are limiting to three. I know 3 is still a lot but compare to the past of 5-6, that a reduction of half.

 

[scroobal]

I recall a pundit once in a close door session suggested that Singapore Policy makers are hooked on quick fix solutions because they tend to be posted every 2 years. They write policy for the initial big bang effect and then don't worry too much about outcome.

In the past, people Hon, Goh, Lim Kim San were dropped into a portfolio to fix things permanently or for the long run. Note now days, you have no clue which Minister or Perm Sec did what. There is no personal pride and no incentive so why would anyone put their head on the chopping block.

I only see Khaw going into area ot fix it. Even he is prone to seeking publicity that paints the wrong picture - $8 surgery.

All the policies made by those MIWs are only quick fix solution based on short term gains.
They do not have the patience to wait for long term results.
Giving excuses of low birth rate to import tons of FTs is one of the easy way out quick fix to raise GDP growth which will make
all those rich and powerful happy all the time. The MIWs don't fuck care whether the locals are willing to give birth of not.
They will never be willing to put so much time and resources to nature the local babies. What they want is instant case $$$ to please those
rich and powerful plus getting their own pocket full. That's their aim and they won't bother too much about low life local S'poreans.

 

[Char_Azn]

Blah Blah Blah

Totally disagree. U are still assuming money is the main issue here. U just talk about more money incentives. It's not. It's the change in culture and thinking that is the issue. I'll just take my peers as an example. I'm in my early 30s. Most of my peers are educated(mostly tertiary education) and doing quite well in their career. Most if not all of them earns above the median income, in fact many are earning above average income in SG(above 4K each) hence money is not the biggest issue if it's even an issue at all for them however the bulk of my peers are still single. Those that got married have little plans to have children; those that do, most of them do not plan to have more then 1 child. Reason cited is almost always too "troublesome", I've yet to meet one telling me it's due to money.

And just in case you think my sample size is small coz I am talking about the 40-50 pple I know, the trend is happening all across East Asia. Countries with very similar culture as us, China(yes I know they have a 1 child policy but recent survey among urbanites in cities like Shanghai reveal the same trend), Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Korea all face the same problem. I read an article with regards to Asia vs Ang Moh countries and why it seem particularly bad in Asia. Apparently in Ang Moh countries the problem is not as bad as the birthrate is supplemented by Children born out of weblock which is a HUGE issue in Asia. We still do not approve of single parents.

It has little to do with the cost of housing although i have to say it might have affected it in more recent years but the fact of the matter is the birthrate have been declining for more then 20 years even when houses were still VERY affordable so high cost of housing is not the major factor. Cost of living have not gone up that significantly unless you are in the bottom 10% who saw stagnant wages. For the rest of us wages have kept up and in most case surpass inflation so that is not an excuse either. Again birthrate declining for more then 20 years, so if you want to claim cost of living is a factor, what about 20 years ago.

U probably need to find pple in their late 20s early to mid 30s who are looking to settle down to get a more accurate picture. Most survey states that they are unwilling to make babies due to financial reason but get close enough to the same pple and the reason will change to one of lifestyle rather then the former. How do U change the mindset of someone who wants to maintain their lifestyle even after they have kids? U tell me

You might also be interested in this
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/business/low-birth-rates-threaten-asias-top-economies/413375

 

[Char_Azn]

Oh yeah I think I shot myself in the foot somewhat. I just remember what my Reservist mate told me. The money incentive kinda works except it only works for the Malay population. He is a primary school teacher and he claims that every time the government gives more money, the number of malay students in his class goes up slightly a few years down. The problem however is that money solution doesn't seem to work with the Chinese population, the most important demographic in local terms

 

[kingrant]

Someday something might just come along and change the outlook to such child-free unfettered lifestyles as has happened with big families who saw the light in having two or less. We just succeeded too well in getting Chinese with hitherto enormous families to stop breeding so "they will have more".

We dont know what, but advanced countries didnt seem to be too anxious about declining birthrates. All of us were brought up to fear the prospect of world pop explosion and not having enough to feed. When all the world is in the same boat, maybe it aint that bad after all. Until something starts tipping it the other way around again,

 

[Ash007]

Maybe I should join politics then. Since I thought about this more then 10 years ago.

Actually if you go thru it, you might realise the value in it. Imagine ordinary Singaporeans and PRs have the usual CPF. Only Singaporeans parents have an additional safety fund for their kids. They don't touch and its an add to their retirement fund. They can't use for their homes except for their kids education. Tan Cheng Bock proposed something similar but the kids education came from the CPF.

Even greedy adults may cave in and start having kids.

 

[Silent88scope]

I recall a pundit once in a close door session suggested that Singapore Policy makers are hooked on quick fix solutions because they tend to be posted every 2 years. They write policy for the initial big bang effect and then don't worry too much about outcome.

In the past, people Hon, Goh, Lim Kim San were dropped into a portfolio to fix things permanently or for the long run. Note now days, you have no clue which Minister or Perm Sec did what. There is no personal pride and no incentive so why would anyone put their head on the chopping block.

I only see Khaw going into area ot fix it. Even he is prone to seeking publicity that paints the wrong picture - $8 surgery.

There's two Goh in the MIW family. If you are referring to Goh KS, his style of getting things done is mostly forward looking targeting for long term results. However when it comes to Goh CT, his style of getting things done is mostly of short term gains. He is the idiot that start running sillypore like a corporate and he is the pioneer that started bringing in all those FTs for the sake of getting more GDP growth every year to milk $$$ for the rich and powerful. He calls those local S'poreans that left their country "Quitter" and yet his own kids and several of those MIW's kid did exactly the same.

 

[Leongsam]

Apparently in Ang Moh countries the problem is not as bad as the birthrate is supplemented by Children born out of weblock which is a HUGE issue in Asia. We still do not approve of single parents.

There is no such thing as "out of wedlock" anymore in NZ. A couple that live together for a couple of years are considered to be "de facto" partners.

The biggest difference is the attitude towards career and life in general. Would a sinkie quit a job to go for a holiday? That's what they often do here.

Many women take a two year break from work to start a family. They aren't worried about loss of income or missing a promotion. Neither do the majority care about Kate Spade bags, fancy jewelry and keeping up appearances.

When they do go back to work, they do half a day. The pay is lower but they don't bother because as long as it's enough to get by, they seem to be pretty content.

At the end of the day, life's choices depend on your value system and your priorities. If materialism is your guiding light, children become a hinderence.. the less you have the better.

 

[scroobal]

They don't get it.

Singapore is built on fast one track rail. If you can't keep up or you take too big a risk, you fall out. Most people cannot get back on the rail. They get left behind. Foreigners who are prepared to run fast will take over and many come from failed or corrupt states so SIngapore is paradise.

In 1st world countries, its the individual that decides how he is going to contribute to society. There is enough leeway to handle failings and experiments. One is encouraged to try different things and appreciated for it.

I know Singaporeans who have migrated to allow one parent to raise the kids and to bring back quality to the family life. It does not mean that spouse just stays at home tending to the kids. They contribute in many other ways such as re-arranging their lifestyles so that they do a part-time job while the kids are in school. In Singapore, of both parents don't work, no decent HDB flat and life is screwed.

Years ago, the dumb MP from Tampines whilst a journalist in New Paper wrote an article about unwed mums gourging on welfare. She of course did not mention that majority who were raising quality in their family.

There is no such thing as "out of wedlock" anymore in NZ. A couple that live together for a couple of years are considered to be "de facto" partners.

The biggest difference is the attitude towards career and life in general. Would a sinkie quit a job to go for a holiday? That's what they often do here.

 

[Leongsam]

They don't get it.

Singapore is built on fast one track rail. If you can't keep up or you take too big a risk, you fall out. Most people cannot get back on the rail. They get left behind. Foreigners who are prepared to run fast will take over and many come from failed or corrupt states so SIngapore is paradise.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Did the PAP govt set the speed of the treadmill to "high" thus putting Singaporeans in the position that they now find themselves in?.... or did Singaporeans create their own nightmare by ranking wealth above family, friends and health in their mad pursuit to show their friends and their peers that they had "made it" in life.

In my opinion, the govt isn't entirely to blame. They merely created a system to cater to the "5 C" dream.

I'm sure you're aware that there is no such thing as a "premium banking" section in any NZ bank. They do assign account managers to those who are high net worth but it's all done very discreetly. Bank customers line up in the same queue regardless of whether they have $2 or $2 million in their accounts and the tellers treat both with the same courtesy and respect.

In Singapore, it's all about flaunting it when you have it. Red carpet entrances for premium customers, credit cards that tell the world you've made it in life, clubs memberships that suggest you must be a multi millionaire if you have a parking sticker. The PAP didn't create all this. Singaporeans impose this class distinction game on each other.

 

[Leongsam]

No chance for Charazn the fatty retard to add to sg population as he cannot find any woman stupid and tasteless enough to procreate with him.

There is no need for those uncouth remarks in this section. They aren't appropriate.

 

[kingrant]

It's definitely the govt to blame. In fact on one fella. Since we became a separate entity with this govt in charge, it's been down hill all the way. The Old Man has a competitive, combative nature. It was Do or Die, Compete or Die, No one owes us a living, If we slacken, we become irrelevant, others will overtake us, etc etc. Repeat that day after day, with control of the newspapers, TV, radio and the message and propaganda sank in.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Did the PAP govt set the speed of the treadmill to "high" thus putting Singaporeans in the position that they now find themselves in?.... or did Singaporeans create their own nightmare by ranking wealth above family, friends and health in their mad pursuit to show their friends and their peers that they had "made it" in life.

In my opinion, the govt isn't entirely to blame. They merely created a system to cater to the "5 C" dream.

 

[kingrant]

Why do we even have this problem in the first place? Stop at two. Have less, so they'll have more. Compete, compete, compete. Fight, fight, fight. Always told to look at our neighbours - do we want to be like them? do you want your sisters, daughters to become maids in other people's countries? so on and so forth.Who can say No to the tyrant?

 

[Leongsam]

It's definitely the govt to blame. In fact on one fella. Since we became a separate entity with this govt in charge, it's been down hill all the way. The Old Man has a competitive, combative nature. It was Do or Die, Compete or Die, No one owes us a living, If we slacken, we become irrelevant, others will overtake us, etc etc. Repeat that day after day, with control of the newspapers, TV, radio and the message and propaganda sank in.

I lived through this era. LKY molded my work ethic. I worked hard because I knew that nothing was for free and nothing could be taken for granted.

LKY never told me that once I had succeeded in life, I needed a Merc or a Beemer to announce to the world what a success I was. The people who laughed at the crap car that I drove were my peers. I chose to ignore them secure in the knowledge that my bank account was healthy. Had I succumbed, I couldn't have retired when I did.

 

[Leongsam]

Who can say No to the tyrant?

I marched to my own drum beat. I didn't tell him off to his face. Tyrants don't take kindly to acts of defiance. I just quietly went about my own business based on what I thought was important to me.