Serious Hakka Siambu Yingluk Laochio No Horse Run!

[mako65]

There are so many variations in the Hakka clan. Da Pu, Hailokfeng, feichew, xiapor n etc...same genre but really don't understand where the originality!

 

[CharKuayTeow]

<Deleted, duplicate>

 

[CharKuayTeow]

I have been researching on my hakka lineage off and on and it's very interesting. There's even evidence that hakka was the national language at certain juncture in tiong history.
And for interest sake, many rich hakkas here own Chinese medicine shops. I haven't met one running the shop that can't speak the dialect.

Hakka too, eh? The key thing is to see if someone in your clan still has a 族譜. In my case, it was relatively easy to research since our name and history is very distinct, and also recorded in some imperial scrolls.

I found that it helps to be able to read traditional characters, know pre-CCP history, and also know how to read Classical Chinese (文言文).

 

[CharKuayTeow]

ooo! that's interesting. I'll have to go look it up. TBH any information shedding light on true Chinese history is a poke in the eye of the version where we are pushed to speak an invader's bastardized version being peddled to us as our "mother tongue". Know and speak your "dialects". They are your true mother tongues. The Mongolians and Manchus can keep their Mandarin.

Cantonese, Hakka, and Min (Hokkien) are the original, pre-Qing languages for Han Chinese. They all still retain most of the syllables and tones that were lost when the Manchus invaded and occupied China. The grammar is actually somewhat different even to this day, and there are characters and tones used in these three languages that are not used in Mandarin.

Mandarin is really not a native language to Hans. It, like the cue, qipao, etc. were all forced on Hans by the invading Manchus.

 

[Balls2U]

 

[Balls2U]

 

[blackmondy]

 

[blackmondy]

 

[nightsafari]

I found that it helps to be able to read traditional characters, know pre-CCP history, and also know how to read Classical Chinese (文言文).

Those are key. know pre-CCP history before it's all whitewashed into oblivion in the name of progress/unity (aka : dictatorship/tyranny).

 

[nightsafari]

Actually, there is no conjecture amongst Hakkas. Many clans still maintain 族譜 that trace ancestry and migrations over the years. It is just that you'll never get us to show it. Many, many Hakka clans protected their 族譜 from the CCP's Cultural Revolution.

For example, my clan has written records going back 2000 years, and ancestors in them appear in the imperial records.

so for outsiders like me it's conjecture lah... glad you can fill me in on your history. Like I said, history is taught very poorly.

 

[blackmondy]

 

[blackmondy]

 

[blackmondy]

 

[CharKuayTeow]

so for outsiders like me it's conjecture lah... glad you can fill me in on your history. Like I said, history is taught very poorly.

I could go on for hours about the history in our records and how it aligns with what is publicly recorded. But, there is a lot of personally identifiable information in it, so the CCP dogs could quite easily dox anybody in the clan. Not especially safe to do this given where the CCP is going.

 

[CharKuayTeow]

I have been researching on my hakka lineage off and on and it's very interesting. There's even evidence that hakka was the national language at certain juncture in tiong history.

Not so much a national language as the (imperial) court language. We know descendants of the Han imperial line (they convened a worldwide clan meeting in the 50´s or 60´s to reconstitute their 族譜). They are Hakka. My own ancestors were in the Tang court, and we are Hakka.

It´s not really accurate to say that Hakka Was the court language. More accurately, Hakka is the most direct descendant of the Middle Chinese that was used in the imperial courts. The Tang Dynasty poems only really rhyme when read in Hakka and Min (Hokkian).

Middle Chinese may have sounded like this:
A very good video about reconstructed Middle Chinese:

 

[nightsafari]

I could go on for hours about the history in our records and how it aligns with what is publicly recorded. But, there is a lot of personally identifiable information in it, so the CCP dogs could quite easily dox anybody in the clan. Not especially safe to do this given where the CCP is going.

i respect your privacy. please contribute as you see fit. not enough people know our true history.

 

[nightsafari]

It´s not really accurate to say that Hakka Was the court language. More accurately, Hakka is the most direct descendant of the Middle Chinese that was used in the imperial courts. The Tang Dynasty poems only really rhyme when read in Hakka and Min (Hokkian).

Both are descended from Middle Chinese. But was Min descended from Hakka or did it develop separately/indpendently?

 

[CharKuayTeow]

Both are descended from Middle Chinese. But was Min descended from Hakka or did it develop separately/indpendently?

As far as I know, the current thinking is that Min is descended from an earlier form of Chinese (Old Chinese), meaning that people who spoke the ancestor of Min migrated to the area where Fujian is today in an earlier migration. There, the language continued to evolve on its own.

Hakka seems to be descended from Middle Chinese, the language that Old Chinese evolved to, and was what was spoken in the Sui and Tang dynasties.

Hakka is a bit special though, since it has evolved separately while absorbing some of the sounds of the surrounding languages as Hakkas moved over time. The Hakka spoken in Taiwan and Fujian has a very distinctly Min accent now, and the Hakka spoken in Guangdong has a distinct Yue sound to it now.

Public history says that we Hakkas were originally from the Shanxi, Henan and Hubei areas, and then migrated in the 4th century to Jiangxi, Zhejiang, and then again in the 10th century to Fujian, Guangdong, etc. Wikipedia has this map:

These migrations do indeed appear in our clan's private history, our 族譜。You can actually see which each generation was. Their places of birth and birthdates and times were often recorded. The first ancestor was from Shanxi, and then many generations later, we were in the Henan area because that was where the imperial courts moved to. Then you can see later generations in the Fujian area, and then hundreds of years later, one of the ancestors went to the Guangdong area. The movements span much, much more than a thousand years.

You're probably going to find that this is essentially the history of all Hakkas. We were the loyal soldiers and scholars of the imperial era.

 

[nightsafari]

As far as I know, the current thinking is that Min is descended from an earlier form of Chinese (Old Chinese), meaning that people who spoke the ancestor of Min migrated to the area where Fujian is today in an earlier migration. There, the language continued to evolve on its own.

Hakka seems to be descended from Middle Chinese, the language that Old Chinese evolved to, and was what was spoken in the Sui and Tang dynasties.

Hakka is a bit special though, since it has evolved separately while absorbing some of the sounds of the surrounding languages as Hakkas moved over time. The Hakka spoken in Taiwan and Fujian has a very distinctly Min accent now, and the Hakka spoken in Guangdong has a distinct Yue sound to it now.

Public history says that we Hakkas were originally from the Shanxi, Henan and Hubei areas, and then migrated in the 4th century to Jiangxi, Zhejiang, and then again in the 10th century to Fujian, Guangdong, etc. Wikipedia has this map:

View attachment 131082

These migrations do indeed appear in our clan's private history, our 族譜。You can actually see which each generation was. Their places of birth and birthdates and times were often recorded. The first ancestor was from Shanxi, and then many generations later, we were in the Henan area because that was where the imperial courts moved to. Then you can see later generations in the Fujian area, and then hundreds of years later, one of the ancestors went to the Guangdong area. The movements span much, much more than a thousand years.

You're probably going to find that this is essentially the history of all Hakkas. We were the loyal soldiers and scholars of the imperial era.

thank you. much appreciated. this kind of stuff very hard to find solid reliable info on that can be corroborated.

 

[CharKuayTeow]

thank you. much appreciated. this kind of stuff very hard to find solid reliable info on that can be corroborated.

You are very welcome. If there is anything Hakka related that I can help you with, please let me know. I'm not an expert, but I have spent a great deal of time reading Chinese history so that I could translate my 族譜， which is mostly in Classical Chinese. It's hard.