God My Healer.

[drifter]

The bible says God created everything. Again you might want to re-read - I have not said what causes lightning - I said lightning cannot come out of nothing.

now you are telling us nothing comes out of nothing ? so let me ask you , who created god ?

 

[drifter]

You really seem quite bad at this. Post after post. I said Christianity is not like science, not Christianity is not science. When I say iron is not like cloth, another chap comes in comparing the suitability of iron for making clothes compared to cloth. Which idiot will make clothes from iron.

Whatever the case, no one will argue that maths not like accounts, therefore only one will contain numbers.

A HAPPY AND BLESSED NEW YEAR, Drifter and all.

theres no point playing with words ...it does not justify anything . since when religion is using science ? of course religion is not science . happy new year to you and your family too . sorry , i dont believe in blessing .

 

[God my healer]

thankyou . have a happy new year .

happy new year drifter.

 

[Perspective]

yes scientist do not say they know everything but everyday they discover new stuff ..unlike you reigious ppl always said your god knows everything ...you guys are being proud although you know nothing . every single things on earth got to do with your invisibleman . by the way , who created internet , cellphone , tv ...ect . its not your god ..its human . you people dont have any proof that human can stay alive for 3 days in a fish stomach yet you believe . to you delusion ppl there no need to use proof ..you just blindly agreed whats in your storybook . that is what blind faith is all about ...congrats you are a living example . you are trying very hard to compare and justify your delusion with tofu ...nice try but its not good enough

I will simply go through the lost rummage to pick up points for address. There is no need to reiterate again things contrary to science. (Like the world-famous 1982 case of a mother overturning a car to save her child - even if you have missed the point by bringing in the question of delusion or non-delusion. I'll stop here.)

Scientists and Christians are both humans, and if scientists depended on their human faculties there would still be stuff to discover. Same if Christians depended on their own human faculties. But Christians are saying "God knows", not "we know". Christianity teaches that everyone is a sinner - it would be surprising that someone who acknowledges that he/she is a helpless sinner can be "proud"! Hence, Christianity is often described as a blind man telling another blind man where to find food.

 

[Perspective]

now you are telling us nothing comes out of nothing ? so let me ask you , who created god ?

It's a question of old "adage". God is not a created being. Things in the universe are created as it began to exist, but God is not constrained within the realm of the universe and did not begin to exist. He has always been there. He is not subject to aging or the 24 hour clock running His life, that is why it is stated He knows the future. I would be worried about worshipping a created god.

Why can't the universe exist by itself? Because matter is a lousy candidate to be eternal or form by itself for nothing - it is unstable and reactive. Even atheist scientists agree that the universe began to exist - no one dares to argue that the universe is eternal. To talk about an eternal universe with no beginning and end would be a real delusion.

 

[fishbuff]

It's a question of old "adage". God is not a created being. Things in the universe are created as it began to exist, but God is not constrained within the realm of the universe and did not begin to exist. He has always been there. He is not subject to aging or the 24 hour clock running His life, that is why it is stated He knows the future. I would be worried about worshipping a created god.

Why can't the universe exist by itself? Because matter is a lousy candidate to be eternal or form by itself for nothing - it is unstable and reactive. Even atheist scientists agree that the universe began to exist - no one dares to argue that the universe is eternal. To talk about an eternal universe with no beginning and end would be a real delusion.

but to warp scientific facts to support the idea of a supernatural being's existence is wrong. there are alot of bad science out there that had been churned out by CMI and confuse others to believe as facts. right from the start, science can never coexist with religions. one is logic and the other is folklore. universe is not eternal and is finite. to form matters from energy require another set of theory like higgs bosons and string theory. how this universe comes about with sufficient strong/weak nuclear force, gravity and EMF can also be throwned into the game of chances thru' the idea of multiverse.

it sound alot more ridiculous and very illogical to say you believe the existence of god without a single shred of scientifically measured evidence, but based on an old ancient book like gilgamesh, zeus, horus, odin, jesus, yahweh, great mumba, pan ku etc...

to all Christianity believers,
since you had talked about jesus, what did jesus commanded you to do? to take up the cross and bear witness to the world. you cannot be a fence sitter, or else you will be spit out by your god as you are neither hot or cold. if you are for jesus, why arent you taking up the cross and go on missions to poor countries to bear witness? but instead, you are being lukewarm, your god deal in absolute, either you go all the way or you don't. dont sit infront of this terminal and start to defend casually.

you have to make a decision here and now; no fence sitting and no lukewarm approach, you are either for jesus or against religions.

i also dislike bench warmers.

 

[fishbuff]

I will simply go through the lost rummage to pick up points for address. There is no need to reiterate again things contrary to science. (Like the world-famous 1982 case of a mother overturning a car to save her child - even if you have missed the point by bringing in the question of delusion or non-delusion. I'll stop here.)
.

i was wondering why god never heal any amputees?

phillippines' flood had killed over 200 people, are they less deserving than you? if you say that they have sinned and deserve god's punishment?

i just finished lunch with a young teenager who is currently studying med school and we got into a strong discussion between science and religion. he went all the way, to him, science is rubbish and bible is all the truth he need. i brought up the case of genocide of canaanites and the world during noah's flooding, and he is 100% to agree with that.

so how will that state that religions teach morality when believers are so hell-bended and ready to do genocide for the sake of religion without even thinking?

[video=youtube;7gAnwTWFuyI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gAnwTWFuyI[/video]

 

[drifter]

It's a question of old "adage". God is not a created being. Things in the universe are created as it began to exist, but God is not constrained within the realm of the universe and did not begin to exist. He has always been there. He is not subject to aging or the 24 hour clock running His life, that is why it is stated He knows the future. I would be worried about worshipping a created god.

Why can't the universe exist by itself? Because matter is a lousy candidate to be eternal or form by itself for nothing - it is unstable and reactive. Even atheist scientists agree that the universe began to exist - no one dares to argue that the universe is eternal. To talk about an eternal universe with no beginning and end would be a real delusion.

come on ...when comes to your invisibleman ..you guys trying very hard to paint him as he is some kind of superman ..but when comes to other things around the world you will said that nothing will comes out with nothing ...what a load of bullshit ( extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ) .yes , the way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason and i know i can't convince a believer of anything , for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe the fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one . we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes .





PS : Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored

 

[drifter]

I will simply go through the lost rummage to pick up points for address. There is no need to reiterate again things contrary to science. (Like the world-famous 1982 case of a mother overturning a car to save her child - even if you have missed the point by bringing in the question of delusion or non-delusion. I'll stop here.)

Scientists and Christians are both humans, and if scientists depended on their human faculties there would still be stuff to discover. Same if Christians depended on their own human faculties. But Christians are saying "God knows", not "we know". Christianity teaches that everyone is a sinner - it would be surprising that someone who acknowledges that he/she is a helpless sinner can be "proud"! Hence, Christianity is often described as a blind man telling another blind man where to find food.

mother overturning a car to save a child is not the act of god ...its because of science as well ...try lifting a heavy object in a different angle ...and you will know what i mean

" Christianity teaches that everyone is a sinner " i called it human nature ..you dont need a rocket Scientists to tell you that .


" But Christians are saying "God knows", not "we know". human created god . by trying to put words to a invisibleman man created by human its as good as saying " i know " .

 

[Perspective]

but to warp scientific facts to support the idea of a supernatural being's existence is wrong. there are alot of bad science out there that had been churned out by CMI and confuse others to believe as facts. right from the start, science can never coexist with religions. one is logic and the other is folklore. universe is not eternal and is finite. to form matters from energy require another set of theory like higgs bosons and string theory. how this universe comes about with sufficient strong/weak nuclear force, gravity and EMF can also be throwned into the game of chances thru' the idea of multiverse.

I think it is stretching the argument to say that only the Christians warp science to fit their own theory. Theories like an eternal universe, millions of years of evolution where dinosaur scales become birds feather, these are not warped? You have reminded me, though, that I should not use too much scientific issues even though they are what I had read, because I am not a scientist myself. The question remains that something cannot come out of nothing - that is more philosophical than science.

it sound alot more ridiculous and very illogical to say you believe the existence of god without a single shred of scientifically measured evidence, but based on an old ancient book like gilgamesh, zeus, horus, odin, jesus, yahweh, great mumba, pan ku etc...

As I mentioned above, I am for the logical conclusion, not the contrary, that something cannot come out of nothing. If you heard a loud bang and asked me did I see what happened and I said nothing, it just happened, I think you would find it ridiculous. And that is what the big bang theory is about - uncaused. Saying that, this disapproves atheism and what I was left to find out which god was true. I certainly need a lot more effort to have faith in atheism.

since you had talked about jesus, what did jesus commanded you to do? to take up the cross and bear witness to the world. you cannot be a fence sitter, or else you will be spit out by your god as you are neither hot or cold. if you are for jesus, why arent you taking up the cross and go on missions to poor countries to bear witness? but instead, you are being lukewarm, your god deal in absolute, either you go all the way or you don't. dont sit infront of this terminal and start to defend casually.

I think it is again stretching too far to say that God commands everyone to do the same thing. Jesus often addressed some messages only to His apostles because He knew they were the nucleus of the early church. People are needed to be the doctors, lawyers, drivers, cleaners and technicians. Being the best that you are correct, but not doing the same things.

 

[Perspective]

mother overturning a car to save a child is not the act of god ...its because of science as well ...try lifting a heavy object in a different angle ...and you will know what i mean

I think it is rather clear that such statements make one become guilty of those he has accused others of.

 

[Perspective]

come on ...when comes to your invisibleman ..you guys trying very hard to paint him as he is some kind of superman ..but when comes to other things around the world you will said that nothing will comes out with nothing ...what a load of bullshit ( extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ) .yes , the way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason and i know i can't convince a believer of anything , for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe the fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one . we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes .

PS : Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored

Again, I said what begins to exist has a cause. No contradiction or double standard. You are doing these misinterpretations too often.

I think there is some effort on the part of non-believers to second-guess Christians here. Example, the reasons why people become Christians (greedy and cunnig says a friend brings you there or you belong to a mission school), not doing their part as Christians (fishbuff who knows better what those behind their nicks have really done and calls "casual" what he disagrees with) or bury myself in drunkedness and happiness (which is the allegation here). I think there is no need to second-guess , those are ad hominem attacks and any of the above do not explain the reason for me and many Christians I know in our faith. No one in return said any of you become atheists because Christian boyfriend/girlfriends dumped you for someone better. So, avoid the ad hominem please.

 

[Perspective]

i was wondering why god never heal any amputees?

phillippines' flood had killed over 200 people, are they less deserving than you? if you say that they have sinned and deserve god's punishment?

i just finished lunch with a young teenager who is currently studying med school and we got into a strong discussion between science and religion. he went all the way, to him, science is rubbish and bible is all the truth he need. i brought up the case of genocide of canaanites and the world during noah's flooding, and he is 100% to agree with that.

so how will that state that religions teach morality when believers are so hell-bended and ready to do genocide for the sake of religion without even thinking?

I think there is no need to reiterate the arguments since I am such an irritant and to do so would be more irritating. I have shared my views in the earlier posts in this same thread, albeit not in direct response but the principle is there.

The only thing I want to add is that, ironically, in your world, justice will never come to evil doers because there is no god and everyone becomes dust whether those who kill in God's name, some other deity's name or don't bother to, whether it is hitler who kills the jews or the nice monk in the neighbourhood who led a "blameless" life. That doesn't sound like a better world either, and to have faith in this world is not better either.

 

[God my healer]

to all Christianity believers,
since you had talked about jesus, what did jesus commanded you to do? to take up the cross and bear witness to the world. you cannot be a fence sitter, or else you will be spit out by your god as you are neither hot or cold. if you are for jesus, why arent you taking up the cross and go on missions to poor countries to bear witness? but instead, you are being lukewarm, your god deal in absolute, either you go all the way or you don't. dont sit infront of this terminal and start to defend casually.

you have to make a decision here and now; no fence sitting and no lukewarm approach, you are either for jesus or against religions.

QUOTE]

Hi FB, hope i am not replying out of context by focussing on what i left undeleted. I do agree that there are many luke warm fence sitters but there are many who appear to be so but are in fact doing good work.
Taking up the cross can be done in very many ways. Bearing witnesss too.
We dont all of us need to go to the poor countries to do mission work although that would be a good thing to do.
The Bible does say that the work will be done
' In Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and then to the ends of the world ' So there is a sense of spreading out but many must still do the work in Jerusalem, meaning stay at home.
The missionaries are the frontline people who have a special calling , the evangelists also are highly visible, but equally important is the back room support, those who work hard for a living and who can support the frontline people and who also do the nitty gritty day to day sharing, praying etc at home.
Some of these are the unsung heroes whose 'cross' is to help at home .
Did this input help?

 

[drifter]

Again, I said what begins to exist has a cause. No contradiction or double standard. You are doing these misinterpretations too often.

I think there is some effort on the part of non-believers to second-guess Christians here. Example, the reasons why people become Christians (greedy and cunnig says a friend brings you there or you belong to a mission school), not doing their part as Christians (fishbuff who knows better what those behind their nicks have really done and calls "casual" what he disagrees with) or bury myself in drunkedness and happiness (which is the allegation here). I think there is no need to second-guess , those are ad hominem attacks and any of the above do not explain the reason for me and many Christians I know in our faith. No one in return said any of you become atheists because Christian boyfriend/girlfriends dumped you for someone better. So, avoid the ad hominem please.

No contradiction or double standard ? you said that what begins to exist has a cause .,and god has ALWAYS BEEN THERE . he is not subject to aging or the 24 hour clock running his life . is that not contradicting ?

you want proof of contradiction ? i can give you tons of it . let me give you a few example .

1) we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes .

2) is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is not omnipotent. is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. is he both able and willing? then whence cometh evil? is he neither able nor willing? then why call him god?

3) and if there were a God, i think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence . cause he will send you to hell for not believing in him

4) if god is al knowing as relusionists claim he is , then he should have known the devil will turn against him and if he loves us so much, he'll put an end to the devil rather than putting us through the trouble of resisting temptation

 

[fishbuff]

.. and to have faith in this world is not better either.

in religions, faith is a virtue.

in science, faith is a vice.

can you, as a defending or prosecuting lawyer, ask the judge to accept his reasoning for the accused' crimes in faith?
can a used car dealer ask you to accept his word that the 2nd car is in good condition in faith?
can you trust the pap govt that they will turn over a new leaf and support the local singaporean in faith?
can you trust a preacher that has zero science accomplishment to say that god exist and accept this in faith?

can you see where im coming from?
we can ask all sort of questions when it comes to buy cars, choose jobs, holiday packages etc.. but when it comes to religions, are all going to be zombie?

 

[fishbuff]

Hi FB, hope i am not replying out of context by focussing on what i left undeleted. I do agree that there are many luke warm fence sitters but there are many who appear to be so but are in fact doing good work.
Taking up the cross can be done in very many ways. Bearing witnesss too.
We dont all of us need to go to the poor countries to do mission work although that would be a good thing to do.
The Bible does say that the work will be done
' In Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and then to the ends of the world ' So there is a sense of spreading out but many must still do the work in Jerusalem, meaning stay at home.
The missionaries are the frontline people who have a special calling , the evangelists also are highly visible, but equally important is the back room support, those who work hard for a living and who can support the frontline people and who also do the nitty gritty day to day sharing, praying etc at home.
Some of these are the unsung heroes whose 'cross' is to help at home .
Did this input help?

yes, i have seen many genuine cases where believers work their butt off to support a mission but i have seen "mission" trip to japan, australia, canada and the usa from singapore before.

my ex-church in singapore has a congregation of <500 and most of the members are in their 40-50s. finding a decent job and salary is already hard enough, but strangely, all the pastors can go to the 1st world countries to do their further study with financial support, and they bring their children to the host countries to have their PRs and study at their uni there. what about the local congregation? we were squeezed by weekly messages to give and give financially. "oh, these are the men of god, we have to support them to do their post graduate degrees there." craps! what about my peers in their 40s that do menial jobs with pittance income, or drive the taxis 12hours daily with their back breaking and barely enough to support their children to study at the sec schools and polys. it is another model of PAP's top down model except this is at a church. the financial load was tough on the whole congregation but the pastors keep preaching on for more money.

heard of sabbatical leave? in sg's labour force, everyone get only 14days per year. but these pastors can take a full year off with pay to do something else. and what do they do during throughout the weekdays when they are only require to preach one lousy message once every 2-3 weeks? sleeping at home?

and here in australia, i met a family whose father works as a pastor, they use their world connection and bring their wives and children to be PR of australia, so they also enjoyed studying at the universities but at local fees! is that fair? i really dont think so.

 

[drifter]

in religions, faith is a virtue.

in science, faith is a vice.

can you, as a defending or prosecuting lawyer, ask the judge to accept his reasoning for the accused' crimes in faith?
can a used car dealer ask you to accept his word that the 2nd car is in good condition in faith?
can you trust the pap govt that they will turn over a new leaf and support the local singaporean in faith?
can you trust a preacher that has zero science accomplishment to say that god exist and accept this in faith?

can you see where im coming from?
we can ask all sort of questions when it comes to buy cars, choose jobs, holiday packages etc.. but when it comes to religions, are all going to be zombie?[/QUOT

the way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason thats what religion is all about .blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence ..

 

[God my healer]

Yes FB , its a shame isnt it . I have also seen these things as you have mentioned and in fact i have contributed also to some people who went overseas to do God's work. A few of them tend to spend more than they should on themselves and their family but many are really really dedicated and use nearly all of the contributions to do the real work. I believe that we should try to be more discerning when we help so that our financial resources are really properly utilised but in the end these people who use or abuse the contributions will have to give an account God on what they used these for and how they used them.
Yes i have heard of sabbatical leave. My view of this is that for those who have worked really hard they do deserve it.
Their work is different from ours in that they actually have very little time off in a year. They work practically everyday. They have to prepare for Sunday services, oversee Admin work, solve congregation members' problems and issues ( Christians are humans too and got a lot of tai chi ). Members' issues would include physical, mental, emotional and spiritual problems.
Then they have all sorts of meetings including hmail stuff these days. Sometimes got disciplinary problems too.
These are a few of the things i know that they do and i am quite certain they have even more.
Sometimes they have to do weddings, wakes, funerals, baptisms and the list goes on. They have no overtime pay .
Being human too sometimes they will get discouraged , tired and fatigued especially when some things they do or dont do angers some party in the church.
Unfortunately church is like office . You have cliques, interest groups , politics etc etc so whatever view or position the pastor takes, he is going to have a group of unhappy and unsatisfied people.
No overtime money too.
So you can see that the really dedicated pastors, especially those who also have families to run can get burnt out.
The leave is for them to be refreshed and also to revisit the Bible and be ministered too.
You recall the story of Martha and Mary?
Martha worked hard , Mary spent time with Jesus and Jesus honoured Mary. So working
for God is important but spending time with Him is even more important, so i understand the need for the 1 year break.
The thing you see in Australia well if they did it in an open way and didnt lie or BS their way then maybe it is just a blessing for them.
Where is OZ are you?

yes, i have seen many genuine cases where believers work their butt off to support a mission but i have seen "mission" trip to japan, australia, canada and the usa from singapore before.

my ex-church in singapore has a congregation of <500 and most of the members are in their 40-50s. finding a decent job and salary is already hard enough, but strangely, all the pastors can go to the 1st world countries to do their further study with financial support, and they bring their children to the host countries to have their PRs and study at their uni there. what about the local congregation? we were squeezed by weekly messages to give and give financially. "oh, these are the men of god, we have to support them to do their post graduate degrees there." craps! what about my peers in their 40s that do menial jobs with pittance income, or drive the taxis 12hours daily with their back breaking and barely enough to support their children to study at the sec schools and polys. it is another model of PAP's top down model except this is at a church. the financial load was tough on the whole congregation but the pastors keep preaching on for more money.

heard of sabbatical leave? in sg's labour force, everyone get only 14days per year. but these pastors can take a full year off with pay to do something else. and what do they do during throughout the weekdays when they are only require to preach one lousy message once every 2-3 weeks? sleeping at home?

and here in australia, i met a family whose father works as a pastor, they use their world connection and bring their wives and children to be PR of australia, so they also enjoyed studying at the universities but at local fees! is that fair? i really dont think so.

 

[Perspective]

No contradiction or double standard ? you said that what begins to exist has a cause .,and god has ALWAYS BEEN THERE . he is not subject to aging or the 24 hour clock running his life . is that not contradicting ?

I have been repeating this same thing throughout the thread and say again that everything begins to exist has a cause and God did not begin to exist. One can trace a cause on all things that begin to exist until you reach the end which is the First Cause. Because something cannot come out of nothing, something has to had been existing in the first place and we call that the First Cause, which I think the best candidate is God. Again, everything begins to exist has a cause and God did not begin to exist because He is First Cause and not created, that is contradiction?

1) we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes .

I do not know why this is a common objection because one can find the answer in the first few pages of the bible... humans were not created faulty! We don't blame a mother if a toddler throws food around inviting ants - and do we expect the mother to tackle the issue not to feed the child?

2) is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is not omnipotent. is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. is he both able and willing? then whence cometh evil? is he neither able nor willing? then why call him god?

You can see how choice between good and evil can come without either and can still be called a choice. Sorry I can't. Evil is not an object by itself - it is a spoiled good. Just like a crack - it appears in bricks and walls. I can't give a crack to someone as a present.

3) and if there were a God, i think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence . cause he will send you to hell for not believing in him

In the beginning there were already the rules before creation. Death means spiritual death. Therefore, God doesn't send you to hell, you end up there because you made a choice and He respects your choice. My own belief is that hell is the default place, not heaven which God has to uplift you to, and hell is a place outside heaven where your spiritual embodiment if you reject God is being denied entry. There's nothing here to do with vanity.

4) if god is al knowing as relusionists claim he is , then he should have known the devil will turn against him and if he loves us so much, he'll put an end to the devil rather than putting us through the trouble of resisting temptation

Of course He knows, but your solution is odd. If God showed in the bible that He destroyed evil in that manner, you will be the first to complain as what you did. I don't know who is contradicting themselves.