GMS Selling Home To Contest Election 吴明盛破釜沉舟背水一战

[jw5]

HULLO RAMSETH, I'm talking about organising grassroots activities for the residents,helping the poor & needy etc and you DON"T have to be an elected MP to do such things!! Since GMS is gonna get a windfall from selling his 4-rm flat at the height of the property boom, he could channel some of this money into doing something for Tampines residents. He needs to show some SINCERITY towards the resdidents that he is keen to win their votes.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINNING AND LOSING AN ELECTION COULD JUST BOIL DOWN TO THIS QUESTION : WHAT HAS THE CANDIDATE(S) DONE FOR THE RESIDENTS???
Please do NOT dismiss this question as unimportant!

If you expect GMS to channel some of his money from the sale of his flat to do something for Tampines residents, do you also expect the current crop of mps and ministars to channel some of their salaries to do something for their respective residents?
It's the same logic isn't it, since it's all personal funds?
The incumbent mp is expected to answer the question "What have you done for the residents?"
The guy who hopes to be elected is expected to answer the question "What will you do for the residents if you are elected?"
If he says something, gets elected and fails to carry out what he promised, then he will have to answer the first question the next time elections come about. He will have difficulty answering.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

I think the best people to ask are the PAP ministers. When it comes to lucrative, they know it so well, I'm surprised they haven't drowned in notes yet.

Let's not kids ourselves. There is no doubt that the PAP ministers and politicians are greedy. But that does not mean that just because you are an "opposition" politician, you are different from them.

Look at Steve Chia. Barely 5 months into the job and he was asking for his NCMP allowance to be raised by 600%.

Why else do you think PEP politicians like LTK praise, echo and parrot the very politicians they are supposed to oppose if not because of money? Because they are being "gentleman"? Or because they don't want to break that $190,000/year rice bowl?

Do you honestly believe that if the "opposition" came into power, they will vote to reduce their million dollar salaries if they are made ministers?

 

[jw5]

Let's not kids ourselves. There is no doubt that the PAP ministers and politicians are greedy. But that does not mean that just because you are an "opposition" politician, you are different from them.

Look at Steve Chia. Barely 5 months into the job and he was asking for his NCMP allowance to be raised by 600%.

Why else do you think PEP politicians like LTK praise, echo and parrot the very politicians they are supposed to oppose if not because of money? Because they are being "gentleman"? Or because they don't want to break that $190,000/year rice bowl?

Do you honestly believe that if the "opposition" came into power, they will vote to reduce their million dollar salaries if they are made ministers?

Actually, I think that if the "opposition" came into power, they will not change their million dollar salaries. It's natural not to want to do anything. Who goes around saying that he deserves and wants to be paid less?
But do you know who will be everyday kpkb saying that this lot of ministars should be paid less?
Easy, the minority "opposition" pappy mps.
They can always change it again when they take over power and have the majority in parliament.
The key is not whether the pappies or the "opposition" will do better as the government. The key is to have a strong opposition to monitor and scrutinize the words and actions of the government and make them accountable to the people.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

You have also forgotten the need for upfront payment for many items and the fact that for many opposition candidates 10,000 or say worst case 20,000 might be a lot of money especially the younger ones who have just started a family. Of course 20,000 might not be anything for the Elite Strata the PAP recruits from but it is generally a lot for many Locke

I have not forgotten the upfront cost and in fact, cited the $67,500 deposit for a 5 men GRC team as one of the upfront cost.

However, that fact remains that any candidates standing for election will lose, in my very generous estimate, no more than $30,000. The figure you provided is even less than mine, i.e. a maximum of $10,000 loss.

This loss is nothing not just for the "elite strata" or for professionals but for any businessman or investor who's used to taking risks. A $10,000 max risk (your figure) or $30,000 max (my figure) for a 40+ businessman like GMS is nothing.

In view of the cap placed on spending, the upfront cost, as GMS himself acknowleged and did consider, can be funded by a simple bank loan or by some other means although he says he doesn't want to because he doesn't want "liabilities".

Look, let's be frank. GMS' sale of his flat is not just about the elections. There are some personal reasons as he himself has admitted and other reasons which he has chosen not to highlight but which can be easily worked out.

As it is, it has already fooled the gullible into thinking that he stands to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars from the sale of his flat simply because that is the value of his flat although it is not the amount that he is, as much as he is out to create the impression, is going to lose.

 

[Sideswipe]

Actually, I think that if the "opposition" came into power, they will not change their million dollar salaries.
But do you know who will be everyday kpkb saying that this lot of ministars should be paid less?
Easy, the minority "opposition" pappy mps.
They can always change it again when they take over power and have the majority in parliament.
The key is not whether the pappies or the "opposition" will do better as the government. The key is to have a strong opposition to monitor and scrutinize the words and actions of the government and make them accountable to the people.

exactly.

what you say will happen in a real two party system when either parties could form the govt.

Party A can't make false promises because they can be voted out next GE to be replaced by Party B if they went back on their election promises. Party A and B knew they have to be accountable to the voters or face the consequences of being replaced from govt.

This is the best check and balances.

For us, I don't think PAP will worry losing 1 or 2 GRCs. The only way PAP will feel the pressure are when they have to face at least 20 elected oppositions MPs in parliament.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

What has it got to do with tax returns and being honest? You're trying to mislead..

Just because I have not elaborated on it does not mean I am trying to "mislead". People have been jailed for underdeclaring their income from their businesses. In fact, some people even cite business "losses" when they have actually made considerable profits and because they don't want to contribute anything to their CPF account (Medisave contribution is compulsory if their earnings is more than $6,000). There are people who keep their heads low and not try to attract attention to their business profitability and their earning by underdeclaring their income and not contributing to CPF.

That no one knows. A lot of it is also your own words. But everyone knows that (returnable) election deposit is not a part of the expanded costs, yet is more expensive that the costs.

More expensive but recoverable. Not unless you poll an unlikely 12.5% of the votes. All you stand to lose is about $50 in interests forgone.

 

[jw5]

exactly.

what you say will happen in a real two party system when either parties could form the govt.

Party A can't make false promises because they can be voted out next GE to be replaced by Party B if they went back on their election promises. Party A and B knew they have to be accountable to the voters or face the consequences of being replaced from govt.

This is the best check and balances.

For us, I don't think PAP will worry losing 1 or 2 GRCs. The only way PAP will feel the pressure are when they have to face at least 20 elected oppositions MPs in parliament.

It has to start somewhere and sometime.
The pappies losing 1 or 2 grcs will achieve a few things:
1. Instead of 2 elected opposition members monitoring and scrutinizing them, there will be at least between 10 to 12. Not 20 but better than 2.
2. It will be a blow to the pride, face and ego of you-know-who. And when their pride is hurt, they tend to say the wrong things, which will convince more voters the next time.
3. It will be the "first time" getting a grc. And as we all know, the "first time" is always important and memorable.
4. It may start a process of internal strife, which will make all of them even more accountable to the people, and not to certain individuals.

Actually, if the "opposition" takes over the government one day and they screw up, I might become a pappy opposition supporter. Anything to make the country better and the lives of ordinary citizens better. I have been following Taiwan politics quite a lot mainly because of Ah Bian's corruption case, and I see a lot of good things to emulate in the Taiwan system / situation. A ruling party which is accountable to the people and very concerned about shifts in votes and a strong opposition monitoring their every move like a hawk. Of course, there are lots of things not to follow, like the (sometimes) arrogant, slow-moving, condescending attitude of the ruling blue and the (sometimes) illogical, unreasonable and violent attitude of the opposition green.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I normally won't reply to you but since you are a lawyer, you should understand the kind of insinuation that you have uttered could have get you into trouble.

I have stated very clearly, at the very instance of reply to Mr. Tan Kin Lian, in full simple terms that IT SERVES ME WELL to sell my flat. I have never exaggerated the amount of cash that I could get from the proceeds that would be of tremendous good use when the time comes.

I cannot blame you because you are in US and can neither read nor understand Chinese as it was published in the Sin Ming Daily here just a few nights ago. But it is only good for you not to make too many assumptions on the intent and characters of others without much learning nor knowing of the details within. I have categorically stated that the amount of cash that could be gained from such sales would only be about $30K to $40K. Just a small amount to chip in for the party War Chest to help finance other candidates.

And I could not believe that a person with your intelligence cannot understand that without adequate money to cross the barrier of $14K election deposits, there would be no contest for the candidate. Whether or not that $14K is lost in the process of electioneering does not belittle the fact such sponsorship is GREAT in itself to help fulfill the most BASIC and NECESSARY condition to field more candidates.

I would not belittle any small little contributions from anyone towards the whole process, even though if it is just a simple temporary loan for candidates to fulfill that election depositary criteria. I would be grateful to anyone who are willing to put his money where his mouth is but I despise people who nitpick on other people's goodwill how little it might be.

Please note that I am NOT defending myself in this instance as I do not think I need any defence at all with so much clear evidence of clarity on what I say and do. I am merely registering my distaste and disgust at your little hollow, petty narrow minded nitpicking that contribute nothing to mankind but only to add on negativity towards the progress of the society.

This will be my last response to you and I must say, just live happily in the country you desire. However, if it pleases you, you could register whatever distaste or disgust of me here without destroying the beauty of human decency and kindness. This is after all, internet.

Goh Meng Seng

In view of the cap placed on spending, the upfront cost,as GMS acknowleged, can be funded by a simple bank loan or by some other means although he says he doesn't want to because he doesn't want "liabilities".

Look, let's be frank. GMS' sale of his flat is not just about the elections. There are other personal reasons as he himself as admitted and others which can be easily worked out.

As it is, it has already fooled the gullible into thinking that he stands to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars from the sale of his flat simply because that is the value of the flat although it is not the amount he is, as much as he is out to create the impression, is going to lose.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

I normally won't reply to you but since you are a lawyer, you should understand the kind of insinuation that you have uttered could have get you into trouble.

This was what Perpective posted:

"Originally Posted by Perspective
Are you the financial adviser of GMS? Thought you wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. Why would you decide for him that he should be putting his money in CPF?"

This was my reply to him:

"You should be happy that I am assuming that GMS is honest in his tax returns, has some grey matter between his ears and has, as a matter of simple common sense, chosen this option."

Now tell me. Which part did you not understand? Which part do you find "objectionable"? The part where I say I work on the assumption that you are "honest"? Would you rather I work on the assumption that you are dishonest?????

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

I cannot blame you because you are in US and can neither read nor understand Chinese as it was published in the Sin Ming Daily here just a few nights ago.

No sin in not being able to read Chinese, Goh. You really ought to stop trotting out such lines. It doesn't go down well with the 25% of the electorate (and even Peranakan Chinese) who will decide your fate.

But it is only good for you not to make too many assumptions on the intent and characters of others without much learning nor knowing of the details within.

My reasoned "assumptions" were pretty spot on as far as I can tell and based on what you have revealed in this posting. Definitely a whole lot more accurate than your assumption that I am in the US or that I am a lawyer.

I have categorically stated that the amount of cash that could be gained from such sales would only be about $30K to $40K. Just a small amount to chip in for the party War Chest to help finance other candidates.

Good. We finally have a hard figure of $30-$40K and not the hundreds of thousands that the gullible were led to believe you were going to throw in just because your flat cost a few hundred thousand dollars.

Pity your handler, buddies and fans could not have stated this earlier when making the announcement on your behalf. Were they not able to read and understand Chinese too? Or were they happy to go along with the impression created that you were out to sacrifice everything in a final "do or die" battle?

This is what Ramseth wrote in his "announcement:

"I asked him, you may end up with no flat (flat sold), no money (money spent on campaign) and no seat in Parliament (if lost the election). He replied, it's OK, he's prepared for that. He do it for his country and his fellow citizens. Even if all's lost, he'll make an honest living in his trade, earn his own way back to buy a home again".​

I am sure you cannot disagree with the statement I highlighted in red has, intentionally or otherwise, created the impression that you are going to use the entire value of your flat to fund your election campaign.

I believe it is precisely because I have whittled this down with facts and reasoned assumptions that this $30-$40K figure has been finally revealed by you here (and in English no less), for those unfortunate not to be able to read and understand Mandarin.

The reason is pretty obvious to me. Your handler, buddies and you did not want to take the shine and gloss off your announcement or the impression created of a selfless man out to sacrifice everything for country and fellow citizens.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

And I could not believe that a person with your intelligence cannot understand that without adequate money to cross the barrier of $14K election deposits, there would be no contest for the candidate. Whether or not that $14K is lost in the process of electioneering does not belittle the fact such sponsorship is GREAT in itself to help fulfill the most BASIC and NECESSARY condition to field more candidates.

The issue is not about me not being able to understand the obvious that money is required for elections. It is about your announcement through a third party which has led the gullible to think you were going to sacrifice a few hundred thousand dollars for country and citizens. It is about you, your handler and party mates who were happy to go along with this impression created on the gullible until it was pointed out that this cannot be so.

I would not belittle any small little contributions from anyone towards the whole process, even though if it is just a simple temporary loan for candidates to fulfill that election depositary criteria. I would be grateful to anyone who are willing to put his money where his mouth is but I despise people who nitpick on other people's goodwill how little it might be.

Please note that I am NOT defending myself in this instance as I do not think I need any defence at all with so much clear evidence of clarity on what I say and do. I am merely registering my distaste and disgust at your little hollow, petty narrow minded nitpicking that contribute nothing to mankind but only to add on negativity towards the progress of the society.

This will be my last response to you and I must say, just live happily in the country you desire. However, if it pleases you, you could register whatever distaste or disgust of me here without destroying the beauty of human decency and kindness. This is after all, internet. Goh Meng Seng

Highly emotive but totally irrelevant and worthless to what is being discussed.

 

[Chau Ve Nist]

You only return money to CPF when you use your CPF to pay for your flat. How did you know he used his CPF and not upfront monthly cash?

One thing slipped your mind that you probably know and everyone knows - for a very long time he's a businessman, in fact a bizman since graduation. Hence his CPF is likely to be kosong and he uses cash to pay for mortgage loan. Hence when he sells his flat, he gets back the same cash (maybe even lower).

Goh Meng Seng has just posted this in his thread:

"Originally Posted by Goh Meng Seng
I have categorically stated that the amount of cash that could be gained from such sales would only be about $30K to $40K. Just a small amount to chip in for the party War Chest to help finance other candidates."​

Hence, the reasoned assumption that I made that he is paying for his mortgage through his CPF and will get a small portion back in cash (and not the hundreds of thousands that the gullible were led to believe) is spot on.

The other reasoned assumption that I made that he stands to lose no more than $30K dovetails with this $30-$40K figures he has revealed. Once he gets that $14,000 deposit back, his losses if any, will be between $16-$26K even based on his own calculations.

 

[yellow_people]

I would not belittle any small little contributions from anyone towards the whole process, even though if it is just a simple temporary loan for candidates to fulfill that election depositary criteria. I would be grateful to anyone who are willing to put his money where his mouth is but I despise people who nitpick on other people's goodwill how little it might be.

Please note that I am NOT defending myself in this instance as I do not think I need any defence at all with so much clear evidence of clarity on what I say and do. I am merely registering my distaste and disgust at your little hollow, petty narrow minded nitpicking that contribute nothing to mankind but only to add on negativity towards the progress of the society.

This will be my last response to you and I must say, just live happily in the country you desire. However, if it pleases you, you could register whatever distaste or disgust of me here without destroying the beauty of human decency and kindness. This is after all, internet.

Goh Meng Seng

There is a book out there GMS, in case you have not heard of it. It's titled "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. You might want to seriously consider giving it a read, instead of spending all your time arguing, mudslinging and belittling netizens in SammyBoy, making lots of enemies and losing credibility, not just your own by that of your cadre at NSP.

What does Sebastian Teo think of your circus act? Do you think its fair to Teo and the rest of your cadre that you are destroying the reputation of the party for personal gain?

Anyway, here's a web link with a condensed version in case you have no money to buy the book as well. Pay particular attention to part three, points 1 to 3.

http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Chau

You have also ignored GMS stated intent that he would help fund the party as a whole. On another note with regards to MP salaries I would add that with the current richest Opposition party being PKMS by some delicious irony, and for you 30,000 or 10,000 or middle 20,000 not being a lot of money , you seem to forget that it is a large some for many younger less inexperienced candidates much less the minorities especially the malays.

Chau the system in itself rewards the MPs, so that it indirectly state funds the parties through a party levy on an MPs salary. I would just add that any opposition party in SG would need to get more MPs in simply to be able to use the funds to grow. Politics though less expensive then in many countries still needs money, whether SDP WP or RP or SDA. Furthermore the PA through the gov funds grass roots activities in a PAP consitutency, not the same for the Oppo.

I would rather an Opposition any opposition those that i like or do not like use the money to grow an alternative to check the PAP



Locke

 

[kingrant]

Spot on Locke.

Either the cynics shut up or put money where their mouths are. Everybody is gullible except him.

We shld not denigrate GMS or his intentions and mislead the electorate into falling in with the incumbents again for another 5 decades. Irresponsible dart-throwing from the sidelines shld be condemned. Look at the greater good.

Dear Chau

You have also ignored GMS stated intent that he would help fund the party as a whole. On another note with regards to MP salaries I would add that with the current richest Opposition party being PKMS by some delicious irony, and for you 30,000 or 10,000 or middle 20,000 not being a lot of money , you seem to forget that it is a large some for many younger less inexperienced candidates much less the minorities especially the malays.

Chau the system in itself rewards the MPs, so that it indirectly state funds the parties through a party levy on an MPs salary. I would just add that any opposition party in SG would need to get more MPs in simply to be able to use the funds to grow. Politics though less expensive then in many countries still needs money, whether SDP WP or RP or SDA. Furthermore the PA through the gov funds grass roots activities in a PAP consitutency, not the same for the Oppo.

I would rather an Opposition any opposition those that i like or do not like use the money to grow an alternative to check the PAP



Locke

 

[RonRon]

I normally won't reply to you but since you are a lawyer, you should understand the kind of insinuation that you have uttered could have get you into trouble.

I cannot blame you because you are in US and can neither read nor understand Chinese as it was published in the Sin Ming Daily here just a few nights ago.
Goh Meng Seng

GMS, Chau Ve Nist is Gopalan?

 

[chewed]

GMS, Chau Ve Nist is Gopalan?

i think that's obvious, isn't it?

armchair quarter-back at it's best....

 

[yellow_people]

Dear Chau

You have also ignored GMS stated intent that he would help fund the party as a whole. On another note with regards to MP salaries I would add that with the current richest Opposition party being PKMS by some delicious irony, and for you 30,000 or 10,000 or middle 20,000 not being a lot of money , you seem to forget that it is a large some for many younger less inexperienced candidates much less the minorities especially the malays.

Chau the system in itself rewards the MPs, so that it indirectly state funds the parties through a party levy on an MPs salary. I would just add that any opposition party in SG would need to get more MPs in simply to be able to use the funds to grow. Politics though less expensive then in many countries still needs money, whether SDP WP or RP or SDA. Furthermore the PA through the gov funds grass roots activities in a PAP consitutency, not the same for the Oppo.

I would rather an Opposition any opposition those that i like or do not like use the money to grow an alternative to check the PAP



Locke

PKMS should really unite and pull out of opposition alliance for good rather then get put down time and again by Ah Bengs. Instead they should channel their resources to the betterment of the Malay community. Chinese based opposition parties have no intent of doing the slightest as clearly evidenced by some of the commentary made and several from Chinese opposition politicians themselves. There is a reason why people like me exist in this forum.

Your underlying insinuation appear to be that the Malay, PKMS in this case, is only well to do by some "delicious irony". Is there no way credit could be given to the foresight and acumen these bunch of Malay had? After all they are generating some $25k/mth in rent alone and managing nicely.

Contrast this with NSP. A party that needs a so-called leader to sell his apartment, of which GMS has himself finally admitted would only generate between $30k to $40k in cash and a one time transaction only.

What does this say about the financial acumen of GMS and NSP? What does it say about GMS' cadres at NSP? GMS has unwittingly portrayed his NSP cadres as a bunch of nincompoop supremely incapable of thinking creatively or raising funds on their own.

Can't NSP just quietly go about generating that $30-$40k needed via donations? Surely it can't be that hard. Why wait till now?

And what happens should there be a snap elections called tomorrow? The flat is not even sold yet.

 

[yellow_people]

GMS, Chau Ve Nist is Gopalan?

GMS was tarred and feathered in this forum and made to look no less than a fool he really is. Not that the outcome was in any doubt, given the circus spectacle GMS managed to turn this into. When you can't win the argument you resort to insinuations, name calling and outright slander. These are all the hallmarks of the PAP, charlatans like GMS say they oppose. Now that is irony.

 

[Perspective]

Just because I have not elaborated on it does not mean I am trying to "mislead". People have been jailed for underdeclaring their income from their businesses. In fact, some people even cite business "losses" when they have actually made considerable profits and because they don't want to contribute anything to their CPF account (Medisave contribution is compulsory if their earnings is more than $6,000). There are people who keep their heads low and not try to attract attention to their business profitability and their earning by underdeclaring their income and not contributing to CPF.

When you have not elaborated, especially it had nothing to do with what was initially discussed, it can be misleading. Because the words "honest" rang loudly on the screen as if thereby giving the impression that we were discussing the person honesty. In my view, this "rang" was intentional.

Now, you're again assuming that all businessmen who do not contribute to CPF (and I mean the OA since I know the MA is compulsory) has to be because they were disguising business profits as losses. I leave it to readers to decide whether someone who thinks most businessmen have the norm to contribute to CPF OA and those who do not hide business losses, has credibility in this view.

More expensive but recoverable. Not unless you poll an unlikely 12.5% of the votes. All you stand to lose is about $50 in interests forgone.

Recoverable, yes, but not easily obtainable. To use an extreme analogy, you might think it is easier to borrow $500 than to ask for $50 gift, since the former is a loan and the latter is to give. However it can be the other way around.