Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

[beta64]

Hi Scroobal,

Need your advice. My son left Singapore before 10 years old in 2008 and has taken up Canadian citizenship. I recently applied for his exit permit and here's the reply; I have edited out the dates and names of the correspondences.

It seems that cmpb insists on a bond? Many thanks.


1. We refer to your email below.

2. We would like to clarify that a young male aged 13 to 16.5 needs to apply for an exit permit if he intends to travel or remain outside Singapore for 3 months or longer. If he is travelling overseas for 2 years or longer, a bond is required.

3. Regarding paragraph 3, when your son turns 13 years old birthday on XX XXXX 2011, he just needs to apply for an exit permit online less than 2 years till XX XXXX 2013 and will not be required to furnish a bond first. The Date of Departure’ on the first screen of the Application of Exit Permit should be from the day your son turns 13 (i.e. XX XXXX 2011). You can enter the application date as the departure date and proceed with the application, although he has left Singapore before the age of 10.

4. Regarding paragraph 4, if he does not meets the criteria and he is remaining outside Singapore for a continuous period of 2 years or longer, a bond (bond by bank guarantee) has to be furnished before an Exit Permit can be issued. If he intends to go back to Singapore on or before 7 Jan 2013, he may approach the counter staffs at Central Manpower Base (CMPB) with his passport and school letter and he will be issued with an exit permit on the same day at CMPB. The maximum date of extension less than 2 years without bond again till he is 16 years 8 months old or 16.5, whichever is earlier.


Yours sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX

NS Registration & Enlistment Centre (NSREC)

 

[chewed]

Hi Scroobal,

Need your advice. My son left Singapore before 10 years old in 2008 and has taken up Canadian citizenship. I recently applied for his exit permit and here's the reply; I have edited out the dates and names of the correspondences.

It seems that cmpb insists on a bond? Many thanks.


1. We refer to your email below.

2. We would like to clarify that a young male aged 13 to 16.5 needs to apply for an exit permit if he intends to travel or remain outside Singapore for 3 months or longer. If he is travelling overseas for 2 years or longer, a bond is required.

3. Regarding paragraph 3, when your son turns 13 years old birthday on XX XXXX 2011, he just needs to apply for an exit permit online less than 2 years till XX XXXX 2013 and will not be required to furnish a bond first. The Date of Departure’ on the first screen of the Application of Exit Permit should be from the day your son turns 13 (i.e. XX XXXX 2011). You can enter the application date as the departure date and proceed with the application, although he has left Singapore before the age of 10.

4. Regarding paragraph 4, if he does not meets the criteria and he is remaining outside Singapore for a continuous period of 2 years or longer, a bond (bond by bank guarantee) has to be furnished before an Exit Permit can be issued. If he intends to go back to Singapore on or before 7 Jan 2013, he may approach the counter staffs at Central Manpower Base (CMPB) with his passport and school letter and he will be issued with an exit permit on the same day at CMPB. The maximum date of extension less than 2 years without bond again till he is 16 years 8 months old or 16.5, whichever is earlier.


Yours sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX

NS Registration & Enlistment Centre (NSREC)

maybe you should just apply for 1 yrs & 11 months for the exit permit, then no bond needed. Then reapply again when its' about to expire

 

[citizen2116]

Scroobal

I would like to enquire if a person with dual citizenship can apply for the extension of the SG passport through "apples" and pick it up in SG embassy overseas if it is successful in the extension? Do apples have allows the applicant to declare that he/she is holding a dual citizenship.

My family 3 members passports expiry dates are spread through 7 months between the 1st and the last holder. Will the applicant with the earliest expiry affect the status of the last applicant? For eg, the 1st person who lodge for an extension of a Biometric passport has to declare the status of the family. Will it set the process where the 2nd and 3rd person is called up by ICA as they have a dual citizenship? Would it be better to process as a family or as an individualwhen the passport expires

Thank you

 

[hkslegends]

Hi, I'm wondering what happens to NS defaulters who are dual citizens but have already renounced the Sg citizenship. I was born in the US but received Sg citizenship by descent. Should I expect jail time + NS, or just a fine? It's an obvious case of not knowing the laws, even though Singapore doesn't recognize dual citizenship. mindef has been a little slow on responding, so I'm just wondering in the mean time.

 

[eatshitndie]

Hi, I'm wondering what happens to NS defaulters who are dual citizens but have already renounced the Sg citizenship. I was born in the US but received Sg citizenship by descent. Should I expect jail time + NS, or just a fine? It's an obvious case of not knowing the laws, even though Singapore doesn't recognize dual citizenship. mindef has been a little slow on responding, so I'm just wondering in the mean time.

if you have already renounced sg citizenship, it should just be a matter of setting the record straight with mindef. mindef is a stickler on timelines, documentation, applications, approvals and redtape. hire a lawyer in sg and let the lawyer investigate the paperwork and process on your behalf before stepping on the island. a good lawyer will advise you on exactly what is missing in the mindef waiver process. if you never carry an sg passport or id, even though your dad or mom registered you in a consulate within 1 year of your birth, your ns liability should be waived. but if you or your parents applied for and renewed your sg passport past 11 years of age, you are liable and will be treated an abscondee when you arrive at an sg port of entry.

 

[eatshitndie]

don't provide false info when applying for renewal or extension of sg passport. you will be asked if you hold another citizenship or other passports in the application process. you don't go to jail if you have another passport or citizenship. you may get fined or get jail time (up to 6 months i think) for falsification in your documentation or testimony. and they will revoke your sg passport. double jeopardy.

 

[scroobal]

Agree with forummer eatshitndie.Except the lawyer part where most lawyers are not familiar as the details are not available publicly. Lawyers who have worked in Mindef in the past have an inside track but you should be able to manage on your own in the first instance. Here is what Mindef typically does with your catgory - SG citizenship renounced but still classified as defaulter.

As each case carries its own story, Mindef will never tell what your ballpark penalty - fine, jail and how long is going to be. What they have done is relaxed the handcuff at ariport arrival, lock-up etc procedures. You will certainly be arrested and depending on the investigation either charged or not charged. In many of these cases, it parents who exercised poor judgement by not following the procedures etc.

What you should do is to contact mindef via email and give all the information that they are requesting.They are however are not going to negoitate via email. They will tell you what are the likely consequence are. Age is a major factor in determining the outcome.

Now that the formality is done. There are 2 broad subcategories that you might fall in;

1) Your entire family migrated and the new country has been their home all this while. Families who registered their children before the the age of 1 overses have been allowed to renounced it and also removing the NS liability by following the procedures. Looks like in your case, the latter was not followed or

2) Your dad sent your mum overseas to give birth while he has remained in Singapore. Common category among the rich. In such case, you will continue to be a defaulter and MIndef would not have agreed to absolve you of NS liability until you fulfill the requirements or face the penalty.

 

[scroobal]

Got a PM and here is the response to another case, details withheld.

Mindef does not reveal anything about such cases and will not comment in the press even if you are a celebrity or your family is wellknown. So your case would not be caught out in public. The number of cases are actually a fair few. Melvyn was dragged out by the public and he himself has to be blamed for doing a performance and giving press interview about the penalty.

Your case will likely go to court from what I see. You cannot use your parents as an excuse as you actually went thru NS partially and thus treated as an adult. Lawyer is important for mitigation purpose, to aleast aim for a fine. Age is a factor and the ballpark is around 40.

Good luck.

 

[hkslegends]

Agree with forummer eatshitndie.Except the lawyer part where most lawyers are not familiar as the details are not available publicly. Lawyers who have worked in Mindef in the past have an inside track but you should be able to manage on your own in the first instance. Here is what Mindef typically does with your catgory - SG citizenship renounced but still classified as defaulter.

As each case carries its own story, Mindef will never tell what your ballpark penalty - fine, jail and how long is going to be. What they have done is relaxed the handcuff at ariport arrival, lock-up etc procedures. You will certainly be arrested and depending on the investigation either charged or not charged. In many of these cases, it parents who exercised poor judgement by not following the procedures etc.

What you should do is to contact mindef via email and give all the information that they are requesting.They are however are not going to negoitate via email. They will tell you what are the likely consequence are. Age is a major factor in determining the outcome.

Now that the formality is done. There are 2 broad subcategories that you might fall in;

1) Your entire family migrated and the new country has been their home all this while. Families who registered their children before the the age of 1 overses have been allowed to renounced it and also removing the NS liability by following the procedures. Looks like in your case, the latter was not followed or

2) Your dad sent your mum overseas to give birth while he has remained in Singapore. Common category among the rich. In such case, you will continue to be a defaulter and MIndef would not have agreed to absolve you of NS liability until you fulfill the requirements or face the penalty.

Yes, #1 is correct. Well actually it was mainly because there were mailing problems - the stuff wasn't forwarded to us properly so we were unaware of what needed to be done. We've already talked to mindef via email but they've mostly just requested biographical information and passport numbers. I'm 22 so I'm pretty sure I'm within the NS liability range, but considering my family has moved here (US) since before my birth, it's good to hear that Singapore been knwon to absolve NS liabilities for such cases. My parents will be visiting later this month so hopefully it will be sort out by then. And I hope the fine wont be too hefty.

Thanks for the information, and also thank you eatshitndie (lol). I posted this on the expat forum and while I'm grateful for their responses, they were a lot less succinct than here

 

[scroobal]

The good news is that they are asking for Bio and PP. Nos so it does it indicate that they are contemplating a positive outcome for you. They would want a copy of the passports and the original PR issue and entry date for the US for your family to confirm that they are genuine migrants. Keep your fingers crossed.

We've already talked to mindef via email but they've mostly just requested biographical information and passport numbers. I'm 22 so I'm pretty sure I'm within the NS liability range, but considering my family has moved here (US) since before my birth,

 

[hkslegends]

Not knowing the law has never washed with Mindef here.

Singapore citizenship for males CANNOT be renounced unless you have completed NS, unless your parents had the foresight to do things the proper way before you even learned how to masturbate.

Ok, that's what the fellows over at expats have told me too, but the last few posts indicate otherwise. Can anyone clarify?

 

[eatshitndie]

Ok, that's what the fellows over at expats have told me too, but the last few posts indicate otherwise. Can anyone clarify?

if you're born in a foreign country with a foreign citizenship and have not enjoyed the benefits and privileges of sg citizenship including holding or renewing an sg passport past the age of 11, you may renounce your sg citizenship at age 21 with deferment approval from mindef from ages 13 thru' 21. an exit permit will be required if you reside outside of sg. with deferment, you don't need to serve ns. if you don't have the deferment process taken care of, it's up to the discretion of mindef on whether the missing link should be backfilled or waived or marked for legal action.

 

[hkslegends]

if you're born in a foreign country with a foreign citizenship and have not enjoyed the benefits and privileges of sg citizenship including holding or renewing an sg passport past the age of 11, you may renounce your sg citizenship at age 21 with deferment approval from mindef from ages 13 thru' 21. an exit permit will be required if you reside outside of sg. with deferment, you don't need to serve ns. if you don't have the deferment process taken care of, it's up to the discretion of mindef on whether the missing link should be backfilled or waived or marked for legal action.

Got it, thanks. We'll see how it goes

 

[lloyd123]

Australian Visa

 

[dizzylizzi]

Hi Scroobal

I am getting really confused about all of this and wondered if you can give me some advice. I am British living in Singapore, married to a Singaporean and our 8 month old son is dual, he has both British and Singaporean passports and the british passport has the endorsement stamp in it. We are planning to move back to the UK at the end of the year and I dont know if I need to contact anyone in Singapore, or pay a bond or what! I cannot find the answers I need on the mindef website and I have heard little bits of information from people I know here but no one seems to know the exact details. Also my husband still has to serve his reservice and we're not sure how that will impact on our plans to move and what he needs to do. Any advice would be greatly received! Thanks

 

[kingat33]

don't provide false info when applying for renewal or extension of sg passport. you will be asked if you hold another citizenship or other passports in the application process. you don't go to jail if you have another passport or citizenship. you may get fined or get jail time (up to 6 months i think) for falsification in your documentation or testimony. and they will revoke your sg passport. double jeopardy.

One of my friend was jailed and fined for false declaration before so dun play play.

 

[scroobal]

Sorry for the late reply. Haven't been watching this folder for sometime. No issue at the moment as he is far too young to be liable for NS. You can go back to UK and no bond is required to be paid. What you should do is notify CMPB befor he reaches the age of 13 that he is overseas so that they will notify you to apply for exit visa. Again no bond if the move is permanent / migration for good. Make it known to them if not they will ask for bond. Bear in mind the clerks at the their outsourced contact centre are not familiR with these things. Do all your comms via email.

When he is 16.5 years, he needs to register for NS. As your family has migrated, you are required to apply for deferment until 21 years. Again they will notify you. Your son then has to make a choice. If he gives up his Singapore citizenship at age 21, no need to do NS. If he wants to retain, he must return to do his NS.

Throughout these years, he can travel in and out of Singapore with no problems. When he renouces his Singaporean citizenship, there are no further liabilities and he can travel in and out also freely.

When your husband migrates, his reservist duties will stop, he will be given an exit permit and placed on holding list until the liability ends usually 40 years for non officers and 55 for officers. If he renounces his citizenship for good, then all liability will end.

The trick is to provide CMPB your contact details so if there any changes, they can notify and request to apply the right procedures.

The main thing that you have to note is remember this "enjoy the privilege of citizenship" condition. So make sure that your son does not return after 13 years of age for schooling, renew or take up new passport, take up the national identity card or return for residency purposes. Use the UK passport. I know of one case where the son and daughter in a similar situation and they returned and did 2 years in the Australian school here as dad was working here. The son immediately is deemed to have enjoyed the privilege of citizenship and had to complete NS. He is now a Defaulter and cannot travel freely into Singapore. He also cannot renounce his citizenship.

Hope this helps.

Hi Scroobal

I am getting really confused about all of this and wondered if you can give me some advice. I am British living in Singapore, married to a Singaporean and our 8 month old son is dual, he has both British and Singaporean passports and the british passport has the endorsement stamp in it. We are planning to move back to the UK at the end of the year and I dont know if I need to contact anyone in Singapore, or pay a bond or what! I cannot find the answers I need on the mindef website and I have heard little bits of information from people I know here but no one seems to know the exact details. Also my husband still has to serve his reservice and we're not sure how that will impact on our plans to move and what he needs to do. Any advice would be greatly received! Thanks

 

[dizzylizzi]

Sorry for the late reply. Haven't been watching this folder for sometime. No issue at the moment as he is far too young to be liable for NS. You can go back to UK and no bond is required to be paid. What you should do is notify CMPB befor he reaches the age of 13 that he is overseas so that they will notify you to apply for exit visa. Again no bond if the move is permanent / migration for good. Make it known to them if not they will ask for bond. Bear in mind the clerks at the their outsourced contact centre are not familiR with these things. Do all your comms via email.

When he is 16.5 years, he needs to register for NS. As your family has migrated, you are required to apply for deferment until 21 years. Again they will notify you. Your son then has to make a choice. If he gives up his Singapore citizenship at age 21, no need to do NS. If he wants to retain, he must return to do his NS.

Throughout these years, he can travel in and out of Singapore with no problems. When he renouces his Singaporean citizenship, there are no further liabilities and he can travel in and out also freely.

When your husband migrates, his reservist duties will stop, he will be given an exit permit and placed on holding list until the liability ends usually 40 years for non officers and 55 for officers. If he renounces his citizenship for good, then all liability will end.

The trick is to provide CMPB your contact details so if there any changes, they can notify and request to apply the right procedures.

The main thing that you have to note is remember this "enjoy the privilege of citizenship" condition. So make sure that your son does not return after 13 years of age for schooling, renew or take up new passport, take up the national identity card or return for residency purposes. Use the UK passport. I know of one case where the son and daughter in a similar situation and they returned and did 2 years in the Australian school here as dad was working here. The son immediately is deemed to have enjoyed the privilege of citizenship and had to complete NS. He is now a Defaulter and cannot travel freely into Singapore. He also cannot renounce his citizenship.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Scrobal it's a great help

 

[sgson]

Hi Scrool,

My boy is a Singaporean by birth. He left Singapore before age of 11. He was granted citizenship in our adopted country. He will renounce his Singapore citizenship at 21.

He did not renew his Singapore passport when expired, he did not apply NRIC. He did not visit Singapore after leaving.

But, he also did not apply for exit permit at age of 13. Did not register for NS at age of 16.5. He will turn 18 soon.

If he visit Singapore after renouncing his Singapore citizenship, what can I do for him to avoid being arrest in Singapore for not serving NS? Is it too late to contact CMPB?

Thank you and good day.

 

[sgson]

Hi Scroobal,

My boy is a Singaporean by birth. He left Singapore before age of 11 and has not visit Singapore. He has granted citizenship in our adopted country. He will renounce his Singapore citizenship at 21.

He did not renew Singapore passport after it expired, did not apply NRIC.

But, he also did not apply exit permit at age of 13, and did not register for NS at age of 16.5. He will turn 18 soon.

If he visits Singapore after renouncing his Singapore citizenship, what can I do for him to avoid being arrest in Singapore for not serving NS? Is it too late to contact CMPB?

Thank you and good day.